A Compilation of Proposed Changes

[Methusula]

Just got two probably silly Fire ideas for Critical Mass:

Idea 1: Whenever you land two consecutive non-periodic spell hits, you gain the Critical Mass buff making your next Fireball have a 50% increased chance to critically hit.

I don't really think that my first idea would change anything. RNG would still be a factor, just a different type of rng. However...

Idea 2: Critical Mass - at max level increases your chance to critically hit with all spells by 40%, but you are no longer able to benefit in any way from other sources of Critical Strike Chance. Instead, 10% of the Critical Strike Rating from other sources is converted into Spell Power.

I like that we are brainstorming changes for improving mage QoL but these two would not work out so well imo. The first change would make the fire mage rotation so static it would be mind numbing. It would almost always be: Fireballx2, Inferno Blast, Pyroblast, refreshing bomb when appropriate. Unless both Fireballs crit, you would never vary your rotation. The second one is such a radical change, it would require a truck load of changes to support it. What about Arcane brilliance? It would then give 10% spellpower plus 5% spellpower. Molten Armor? 5% spellpower. Those buffs are now redundant, boring, and most importantly ridiculously OP. They could be toned down, but that only addresses one of the issues. Always having 40% crit would make gearing and theorycrafting incredibly boring and the spec in general would be far worse off.

Again, I like the fact that we are throwing ideas out there. I'm not trying to piss in your Kool-Aid, just thought I would point out some of the reasons that wouldn't work.

[Deleted]

I like the changes in general and would be happy if they were patch notes.

[Methusula]

If anyone wants to hop over to the official forums, I put a thread up http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7414945942 My goal is to bring to light some of the concerns voiced here in this and other threads about QoL, direction and other issues.

[Elegiac]

Fire is fine. You can play all 3 mage specs in PvE now, yet each has some situations where their mechanics really shine.

Yet more stupidity from the blues, demonstrating their ignorance of the current state of mages.

The truth of the matter is that mechanic wise, Mages are just as bad as rogues. The only reason nobody notices is because our damage remains respectable.

[mrgreenthump]

Yet more stupidity from the blues, demonstrating their ignorance of the current state of mages.

The truth of the matter is that mechanic wise, Mages are just as bad as rogues. The only reason nobody notices is because our damage remains respectable.

Mm, I would really like to see that fight that frost really shines on.. Arcane is still really bad for some fights and Fire is just lackluster if there aint cleave to be done.. So guess thats "fine" in Blizzards book.

[Elegiac]

Mm, I would really like to see that fight that frost really shines on.. Arcane is still really bad for some fights and Fire is just lackluster if there aint cleave to be done.. So guess thats "fine" in Blizzards book.

Protip: Nobody on the Mage development team actually plays a mage.

[Deleted]

Mm, I would really like to see that fight that frost really shines on.. Arcane is still really bad for some fights and Fire is just lackluster if there aint cleave to be done.. So guess thats "fine" in Blizzards book.

Out of interest, in what fight(s) does Arcane perform 'really badly'? I find it bearable on most fights and on some fights it's outright disgusting (in a good way). The only fight in the entire tier where I think it CAN be bad (as it is situational) is Garalon when you're dealing with the debuff, and even then when you aren't dealing with it, it's fine for it.

Fire and Frost need some QoL buffs, sure, but no offence to Didactic some of the changes suggested are outrageously dreamy and (from my point of view, anyway) seem to just be 'buff mages'.

Protip: Nobody on the Mage development team actually plays a mage.

OK, yes, Mages could use some SMALL QoL changes to make life easier and Fire could use a little love to bring it back to the same level of Frost or Arcane; but this isn't a mage-specific problem. Destruction 'locks are lackluster in PvE, Demonology is lackluster in BOTH PvE and PvP, and Affliction is really good in PvE and strong in PvP. Hunters: Marksman is damn near utterly useless; Survival is situationally good in PvE; Beast Mastery shines in PvP and is very strong in PvE as well.

Please, stop acting like Mages are in their own little world where they are in a shit place; while they aren't AMAZINGLY fun to play at the moment there aren't going to be many changes this expansion that will change that entirely; Blizzard is doing what they can (just look at Invocation in 5.2, yes was a slight nerf, but QoL buffed).

Also, I would point out that your argument of 'nobody on the development team actually plays a mage' works both for and against you: Mages at the start of the tier were ridiculously strong on every single fight and aside from T6 qq people were happy. Everyone's only started qqing after Fire got some much-deserved nerfs. Were they too extreme? Yes. But this doesn't take away from the point that they needed to be made.

[mrgreenthump]

Out of interest, in what fight(s) does Arcane perform 'really badly'? I find it bearable on most fights and on some fights it's outright disgusting (in a good way). The only fight in the entire tier where I think it CAN be bad (as it is situational) is Garalon when you're dealing with the debuff, and even then when you aren't dealing with it, it's fine for it.

On Garalon Heroic, you pretty much have to deal with the debuff.. On Zorlok heroic Arcane is ok overall, but depending on your choices its either meh for the first few phases and then decent in the end, or bad at the end and amazing at the start..

I mean sure its much easyer now, that you can get away with the spec being bad on some phases due to gear inflation, but if it was MSV or HoF progress again for me with 5.1 arcane and the gear I had back then.. I could see me just ditching Arcane for fire or frost on more than a few fights, just cause they had critical damage phases that arcane doesn't do well in.

[Sw1tch]

Serene I don't believe anyone said other pures didn't need attention. In fact I believe we iterated that point several times, but agree to disagree with you on warlocks.

But this is the mage forum, so we talk about magi. Sorry. And arcane is only destroying right now because of the unseen scorch weaving mechanic, which is getting fixed in 5.2 along with a 10% mana cost increase to Arcane Blast.

and to mrgreenthump, anything with cleave shows some frost supremacy (if you have IL glyphed, which you should). But I agree that it's too niche. But the single target is already being addressed in 5.2, with the frostbolt damage increase and *hopefully* the introduction of Water Jet. And that's just the beginning of the PTR, we might see more mage love, hopefully to our T6 talents.

[Deleted]

Serene I don't believe anyone said other pures didn't need attention. In fact I believe we iterated that point several times, but agree to disagree with you on warlocks.

I think you're kinda missing my point - Didactic's point was that Mage's 'are in a bad place' (I assume, perhaps wrongly) because no dev plays a Mage, which is downright wrong when you look at some of the other classes, that was more the point I was trying to make. Warlock's are OK on a QoL front (after all the entire class just got completely remade, would be kinda shit if they weren't), but in terms of balancing all 3 specs to be 'viable' (depending on your definition of that word) they have fallen behind a bit; similar to where Mages are.

But this is the mage forum, so we talk about magi. Sorry. And arcane is only destroying right now because of the unseen scorch weaving mechanic, which is getting fixed in 5.2 along with a 10% mana cost increase to Arcane Blast.

10% Mana change to AB has already been made and is just a tooltip change (unless they are changing it further), so the only 'nerf' to Arcane is removing Scorch weaving by giving Scorch a 3.5% base mana cost and nerfing RoP's mana regen. Arcane will most likely still be viable as it will be more of a playstyle change than anything; but 6-stack resetting still does competitive DPS, Scorch weaving is just slightly more optimal. It will also (likely) remove Haste builds, but we shall see when PTR is released.

and to mrgreenthump, anything with cleave shows some frost supremacy (if you have IL glyphed, which you should). But I agree that it's too niche. But the single target is already being addressed in 5.2, with the frostbolt damage increase and *hopefully* the introduction of Water Jet. And that's just the beginning of the PTR, we might see more mage love, hopefully to our T6 talents.

T6 talents are being "addressed"; though sadly IW isn't getting any changes (that I've seen), RoP is getting nerfed to make it less viable for Arcane to 6-stack camp without consequences and Invo is getting some QoL buffs.

If by 'Mage love' you simply mean some QoL changes, fine, I can agree with that. If by 'Mage love' you mean DPS buffs or something similar I disagree as I feel Mages and Warlocks are too far ahead of the pack at the moment in terms of PvE DPS. Would be nice to see them brought back in line; I have a feeling Arcane will be and as far as I'm aware Affliction is being seen to as well.

[Soulstrike]

@Serene has the 10% AB mana nerf been hotfixed??? if so its barely noticeable.

remember rop is also geting a nerf.

[Methusula]

No, the mana change has not been implemented. Nor has the 25% mana regen nerf to RoP, or the scorch mana increase. These changes will eliminate scorch weaving as a viable playstyle. GC stated in a tweet today that he did not support that playstyle so I would consider it dead.

[Soulstrike]

No, the mana change has not been implemented. Nor has the 25% mana regen nerf to RoP, or the scorch mana increase. These changes will eliminate scorch weaving as a viable playstyle. GC stated in a tweet today that he did not support that playstyle so I would consider it dead.

10% Mana change to AB has already been made and is just a tooltip change (unless they are changing it further), so the only 'nerf' to Arcane is removing Scorch weaving by giving Scorch a 3.5% base mana cost and nerfing RoP's mana regen. Arcane will most likely still be viable as it will be more of a playstyle change than anything; but 6-stack resetting still does competitive DPS, Scorch weaving is just slightly more optimal. It will also (likely) remove Haste builds, but we shall see when PTR is released.

uhhh im confused XD Shangalar need confirmation whose right and whose wrong

@Serene do you mean 125% AB > 75% buff?? i thought you meant 10% AB mana nerf

@Methusula yea i freaking hate scorch weaving, it was dumb rotation >_>

[Sw1tch]

Didactic (and this entire thread of posters for that matter) are almost 100% referring to the QoL of mages, which is arguably the worst in the game. I don't think anyone here disputes the fact that damage wise, we are viable.

And no, the change of 1.5% to 1.666667% is a new change. On top of the RoP nerf and scorch nerf, it will be a moderate nerf to overall Arcane damage.

And yes, "mage love" means QoL changes. Needing a 90% uptime on RoP to make it even worth the cast is utterly ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Didactic (and this entire thread of posters for that matter) are almost 100% referring to the QoL of mages, which is arguably the worst in the game. I don't think anyone here disputes the fact that damage wise, we are viable.

From the list of proposed changes (yes, I understand they are mostly just ideas) it seems like a bit more than QoL fixes as there are some buffs which would make Mages too strong, but fair enough.

And no, the change of 1.5% to 1.666667% is a new change. On top of the RoP nerf and scorch nerf, it will be a moderate nerf to overall Arcane damage.

My bad, and yes but single target at the moment Arcane is near-unbeatable. 'Moderate' nerfs will probably bring it back into line with other DPS.

And yes, "mage love" means QoL changes. Needing a 90% uptime on RoP to make it even worth the cast is utterly ridiculous.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-nk...?s=2364&e=2967
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-0q...?s=4686&e=5136
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pk...4/?s=251&e=693
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-y3...?s=5559&e=5910

Those are just 4 examples where I'm keeping 90+% uptime on RoP, and there are more logs where I have it at or around there as well. It's not 'hard' per se to accomplish it's just about moving in a smart way and making sure your movements aren't over-exaggerated. Personally I feel it adds to the skill-cap on an otherwise ridiculously easy class to play, but that's just my opinion.

[Sw1tch]

You listed about the only fights that would permit such an uptime. Every other fight is virtually impossible by sheer mechanics alone. I love the skill cap, but just like how talents are supposed to be, it's supposed to be purely beneficial. I.E. Warlock talents. These skills can actually negatively impact your dps if used improperly. I actually want it to have a higher skill cap, but in some instances it's actually impossible to maintain that uptime (I.E. Lei shi for instance, tsulong, bladelord, stone guard depending on combination, Vizier is doable but very hard, garalon). I'm simply saying that talents should be purely beneficial for their purpose (obviously some talents come with sacrifices, but a damage talent should never negatively impact your damage)

I'm not saying it's impossible as much as I'm saying it's ridiculous for a 90% uptime to be even *worth* the cast. That's the issue. Make it instant cast and put it on a 1 sec GCD, and I'm happy. I still love the skill and the idea, but it needs work.

[zomgDPS]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-nk...?s=2364&e=2967
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-0q...?s=4686&e=5136
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pk...4/?s=251&e=693
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-y3...?s=5559&e=5910

Those are just 4 examples where I'm keeping 90+% uptime on RoP, and there are more logs where I have it at or around there as well.

This is not the full picture.

Buff uptime != DPS uptime. You need a 90%+ DPS uptime on those talents as well.

e.g. say you drop your rune and stand in it, but do no DPS (assuming you could do DPS in the 1.5 seconds it took to cast it), your 'buff' uptime will be 100% (and will show in parses), but if your DPS uptime during the time you were in the rune, is sub 90%+, then it was not worth to cast it.


That is, I think, the uptime sw1tch is talking about.


There are many things that could potentially prevent you casting on a boss even though you do not need to be mobile.


Now some can say "well that's part of knowing when to use the skill", "sure" i say, but the problem is, for Arcane to even 'work' you have to use the skill 100% due to how lack of mana regen nerfs Arcane.

This is the source of the fabled "double dipping nerf" concept that people talk about when they refer to these spells in terms of Arcane.

That being said, even for non-Arcane specs, this might be considered ridiculous to demand such a high uptime just to break even.
And PvP? Forget it. How can you expect RoP to ever be useful in PvP if it requires 90% uptime (even if its just buff uptime). RoP needs something more. more than just "qol" changes like reduced cast time. RoP needs to provide something extra if it ever has to have a chance to serve a function more than just 'noob detector' in pvp.

Imho, a temporary buff that keeps refreshing as long as you are in your rune. The buff clears snares and makes you immune to them, and increases your runspeed by 35%. buff lasts 3 seconds.


Now RoP can serve an actual strategic and tactical purpose in PvP. Mages can rush to and from well placed RoPs as well as use them to provide a somewhat 'zone' of snare-immunity for the mage. This adds a new dimension to the talents, one which is sorely lacking when they just serve as 'zomgdps' in their current form.

[Soulstrike]

This is not the full picture.

Buff uptime != DPS uptime. You need a 90%+ DPS uptime on those talents as well.

e.g. say you drop your rune and stand in it, but do no DPS (assuming you could do DPS in the 1.5 seconds it took to cast it), your 'buff' uptime will be 100% (and will show in parses), but if your DPS uptime during the time you were in the rune, is sub 90%+, then it was not worth to cast it.


That is, I think, the uptime sw1tch is talking about.


There are many things that could potentially prevent you casting on a boss even though you do not need to be mobile.


Now some can say "well that's part of knowing when to use the skill", "sure" i say, but the problem is, for Arcane to even 'work' you have to use the skill 100% due to how lack of mana regen nerfs Arcane.

This is the source of the fabled "double dipping nerf" concept that people talk about when they refer to these spells in terms of Arcane.

That being said, even for non-Arcane specs, this might be considered ridiculous to demand such a high uptime just to break even.
And PvP? Forget it. How can you expect RoP to ever be useful in PvP if it requires 90% uptime (even if its just buff uptime). RoP needs something more. more than just "qol" changes like reduced cast time. RoP needs to provide something extra if it ever has to have a chance to serve a function more than just 'noob detector' in pvp.

Imho, a temporary buff that keeps refreshing as long as you are in your rune. The buff clears snares and makes you immune to them, and increases your runspeed by 35%. buff lasts 3 seconds.


Now RoP can serve an actual strategic and tactical purpose in PvP. Mages can rush to and from well placed RoPs as well as use them to provide a somewhat 'zone' of snare-immunity for the mage. This adds a new dimension to the talents, one which is sorely lacking when they just serve as 'zomgdps' in their current form.

youve changed alot since the last "ban" of yours, loving the ideas you keep coming up

will be interesting to see your whole thread topic about "the zomg changes for mages"

[zomgDPS]

youve changed alot since the last "ban" of yours, loving the ideas you keep coming up

Somehow my GM found out I posted here and saw my posts that caused some bans. Threatened guild action (up to and including /gban). Told me to correct it, or its gg.

We take stuff like that pretty seriously, even though I am still anonymous here (for the most part).
It was also the only way to convince another guildy to come join the discussion on mages. He should be with us shortly. He taught me pretty much everything I know.
"temper your passion with understanding Zom" he said.

will be interesting to see your whole thread topic about "the zomg changes for mages"

At this point I think many of us are waiting with bated breath given that 5.2 PTR seems like its about to drop any minute now.

That being said, you can expect a metric ton of analysis coming up while 5.2 is on PTR. This is our real chance to get some much needed changes to the mage class. The only way to do this is to focus as a community as a whole in a constructive way.

Lets see if we mages can do that.

[Deleted]

OK, yes, Mages could use some SMALL QoL changes to make life easier and Fire could use a little love to bring it back to the same level of Frost or Arcane;

If you want to bring Fire on the same level as Frost, you have to nerf Fire more! I read in so many threads "frost and arcane" are super strong, but that is not true! Frost is still the weakest of the three.