Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Drilnos]

Certainly there are people who never trusted the orcs and never will. But they've made their allies after Thrall freed them. They fought together with the humans and the night elves against the Burning Legion and they gained respect and acceptance from a lot of people. They allied with the tauren and the trolls not just because they could gain from each other but because they felt connected. They made allies with the golbins, blood elves and forsaken, and at least the blood elves were trustworthy and loyal allies. They had good relations to Theramore (until recently of course) it was a place where even the Horde was welcome (Baine sought refuge there when the Grimtotem betrayed the other Tauren) and Jaina even killed her own father to protect the orc. They certainly were not hated by everyone.

That wasn't about the orcs. It was about the Horde. And let's be real here. Aside from a handful of radicals like (old) Jaina, the various component races of said Horde were generally treated as anything from primitive savages and underhanded con men to outright demonspawn by the Alliance as a geopolitical entity. Creatures fit only to be pushed to the edges of the world, and that was for the natives. The orcs got stuffed into concentration camps when they ceased being a threat, only because there was no way to shove them back into the ravaged Outland. "Open arms" my foot. Even the blood elves, actual members of the Alliance, were pushed out due to xenophobia.

And, it should be mentioned, when they made moves to come back, they were pushed out again, under the exact same circumstances, for the exact same reasons, by the one person who should have damn well known better.

[Jediguy]

Yes, but you still have to give her credit for coming to her senses. In the end she still didn't do it. You can't treat her as if she did.

After what she tried to pull, she cannot be trusted. In the U.S., she would have been charged with attempted murder (if not attempted genocide) and been locked up.

If you had seen people you loved disintegrate before your eyes, maybe you would think differently. People very often cry for vengeance when someone they love is murdered.

Again, being full of rage does not justify atrocities.

She didn't break the Kirin Tor's neutrality.

Okay, let me break it down for you in a very simple syllogism...

Syllogism number 1:

Neutral means you don’t take sides in a conflict.
Jaina sided with the Alliance in their conflict with the Horde
Therefore, Jaina is not neutral.

Syllogism number 2:

The leader of an organization must embody the values and ideals of that organization
The Kirin Tor is neutral
Jaina is not neutral
Jaina is the leader of the Kirin Tor
Therefore, Jaina is unfit in her position as leader of the Kirin Tor by not behaving in a neutral fashion

It really doesn’t get simpler than that.

A purse can't turn people into Sha. What is this supposed to tell me? That the Mogu are the true victims?

In this case of theft? Yes. But you’re ignoring the point and you know it; the illustration clearly demonstrates that the Alliance don’t have any more legitimate a claim to the Divine Bell than the Horde does. Thus, by your own logic, it could not be “stolen” from them, since it was never “theirs” to begin with.

I'm running out of Thrall cards.

Sure wish you would find an analogy that actually paralleled Jaina. Grasping at straws isn’t going to help you.

When Jaina cast protective spells on Darnassus, she was also not helping the Alliance attack the Horde.

But she was helping the Alliance against the Horde, then attacked the Horde indiscriminantly when her defenses were countered. Not neutral.

And here I was thinking it should be obvious to anyone.

Such a claim only demonstrates your Alliance zeal has clearly blinded you. It is the humans that betrayed the Blood Elves during the third war, not vice versa. It is the Night Elves whose arrogance cursed Dark Shore when they built Teldrassil without nature’s blessing. It is the Dwarves who encroach on Horde lands, defiling the earth as they dig for relics. It is the Gnomes whose contraptions polluted an entire capitol city. It is the citizens of Gilneas who hide away in cowardice from the Alliance when their need was dire, only to beg for Alliance help against the undead when their precious walls crumbled. It was Arthas Menethil, an Alliance prince, who became the Lich King and imprisoned countless souls. It was Fandral Staghelm, the Night Elf Archdruid, who aided Ragnaros during the Cataclysm. It was Archbishop Benedictus, leader of Stormwind’s Cathedril, who joined forces with Deathwing and tried to steal the dragon soul from Thrall. Need I go on? The Horde has its problems, but at least we admit them. Alliance are often so self-righteous they fail to notice that they have stains in their underpants too.

[DeLos]

But she is the leader of the Kirin Tor; her actions thus represent and embody the Kirin Tor itself.

Unparallel analogy. The argument isn’t “X helped Y, therefore Y belongs to X.” The argument is “X helped Y, because X favors Y in spite of X’s claim of neutrality.” Thrall isn’t helping the Horde attack the Alliance or vice-versa; indeed, he specifically stayed out of this conflict so he could focus on his neutral job of healing Azeroth’s wounds from the cataclysm.

You heard it here, the Thrall broke the Earthen Ring neutrality. He did actively protect the Horde from the Alliance.

Dude, she’s the leader of the Kirin Tor! Her actions reflect the Kirin Tor. Her behavior should embody the neutrality of the Kirin Tor, but guess what?

Goose - Gander
Thrall is the leader of the Earthen ring. His action reflect on the Earthen Ring. His behavior should embody the neutrality of the Earthen Ring.

It does not matter if the elements told him what was going to happen, or if a little bird hopped up on his shoulder, he did actively protect Ogrimmar. Let me quote: "Double standard, double standard, double standard."

What is more, I think Thrall was correct in his actions. Guess what, the bell represents a GREATER threat then Jaina with the focusing iris attacking Ogrimmar. had she continued and succeeded one city would have been destroyed. The elements would have mourned their involvement. A tragedy. Had Garrosh succeeded with the bell the whole world could have been over run with the Sha. And Garrosh was not going to be talked down like Jaina was. (it was tried)


Also, you have the wrong idea of the Kirin Tor neutrality. You seem to think it means every member puts their head in the sand and ignores what happens in the rest of the world. This is not the case. The Kirin Tor want PEACE. They want the Alliance and the Horde to stop fighting. Jaina described the city as an 'example to the rest of the world' when she refused to aid the Alliance in the war. As an organization actively looking to the future and trying to achieve peace, preventing a weapon that could not be controlled and threatened everyone is not taking sides. Dalaran was threatened by the bell as well.

Also, Jaina did not expel the Sunreavers for helping the Horde. They had done that before. She expelled them because the used Dalaran as a weapon in the war. Dalaran really is:

They’re just a collection of Alliance and Horde guys that are, for the time being, not killing each other in a specific city...

When they used the city as a weapon, they broke that.

[DFu4ever]

Thrall is the leader of the Earthen ring. His action reflect on the Earthen Ring. His behavior should embody the neutrality of the Earthen Ring.

It does not matter if the elements told him what was going to happen, or if a little bird hopped up on his shoulder, he did actively protect Ogrimmar. Let me quote: "Double standard, double standard, double standard."

What is the name of the Earthen Ring's rival neutral faction that Thrall acted against by helping to stop Jaina? Oh wait, there isn't one which is why that comparison doesn't work. Not to mention that Thrall has just as much reason to stop Jaina from committing mass murder because he's her friend as he does from being the former Horde Warchief.

When they used the city as a weapon, they broke that.

The Alliance was using a Kirin Tor resource to set up anti-Horde defenses. That resource was Jaina...the Kirin Tor leader.

[Drilnos]

What is the name of the Earthen Ring's rival neutral faction that Thrall acted against by helping to stop Jaina? Oh wait, there isn't one which is why that comparison doesn't work. Not to mention that Thrall has just as much reason to stop Jaina from committing mass murder because he's her friend as he does from being the former Horde Warchief.

Not to mention that stopping elemental devastation and keeping the elements in balance is pretty much the mission statement of the Earthen Ring. Jaina was screwing with dangerous forces that have minds of their own when she made that tsunami. It didn't matter what was in front of it, it had to be stopped.

This line has me curious as to what the Alliance player reaction would be if Thrall went bonkers and chained up Nobundo and killed or imprisoned all the draenei and dwarves in his organization. Probably wouldn't be quite so many attempts to justify it.

[Jediguy]

You heard it here, the Thrall broke the Earthen Ring neutrality. He did actively protect the Horde from the Alliance.

Except one important difference: Thrall was responding specifically to the elements begging him to help them from being abused. Thrall didn’t even know what the problem was or who was causing it before he arrived on Fray Island. His aim wasn’t to help the Horde against the Alliance; it was to stop the elements from being abused. In contrast, Jaina received no such request for aid from a neutral source (e.g. magic, nature, the elements); she came specifically to help the Alliance against the Horde. That’s where your parallel breaks down.

Goose - Gander
Thrall is the leader of the Earthen ring. His action reflect on the Earthen Ring. His behavior should embody the neutrality of the Earthen Ring.

And he was: Thrall responded to the cry of help from the elements – NOT from a cry for help from the Horde.

It does not matter if the elements told him what was going to happen, or if a little bird hopped up on his shoulder, he did actively protect Ogrimmar.

His motives for acting were completely different from Jaina’s: He responded to the elements to help them while Jaina responded to the Alliance to help them. Two, completely different things. Sorry, try again.

What is more, I think Thrall was correct in his actions. Guess what, the bell represents a GREATER threat then Jaina with the focusing iris attacking Ogrimmar. had she continued and succeeded one city would have been destroyed. The elements would have mourned their involvement. A tragedy. Had Garrosh succeeded with the bell the whole world could have been over run with the Sha. And Garrosh was not going to be talked down like Jaina was. (it was tried)

This is a separate issue altogether: justifying breaking neutrality. I’m perfectly fine with keeping the bell from Garrosh and I’m Horde. The problem is in Jaina claiming to be neutral but engaging in a conflict in favor of the Alliance against the Horde while imprisoning and killing the Horde in Dalaran for helping those they sympathize with, just as she did. You may say her breaking neutrality was justified, but her double standard is not.

Also, you have the wrong idea of the Kirin Tor neutrality. You seem to think it means every member puts their head in the sand and ignores what happens in the rest of the world.

Nope, the Kirin Tor, like any other “brotherhood” such as the Earthen Ring and Ebon Blade, are there to attack other threats (the Lich King, Death Wing, etc). They are “neutral” concerning the conflict between the Alliance and Horde. What Jaina did is violate that neutrality by helping the Alliance specifically against the Horde.

They want the Alliance and the Horde to stop fighting. Jaina described the city as an 'example to the rest of the world' when she refused to aid the Alliance in the war.

And then turned right around and offered them her aid anyway by protecting the Divine Bell after using the focusing iris in an effort to destroy Orgrimmar. Yep. Sounds like a neutral peace-lover with no bias against the Horde to me!

As an organization actively looking to the future and trying to achieve peace, preventing a weapon that could not be controlled and threatened everyone is not taking sides. Dalaran was threatened by the bell as well.

That’s just baseless conjecture, on par with the “She was going to take it to Dalaran” claim. The Alliance took it for two stated reasons (a) to keep it from Garrosh and (b) to study it. How can you possibly claim the Alliance wouldn’t use the Divine Bell after studying it? How can you claim they would use an item this way or that way before they even know what, exactly, they have? You’ll understand that after Jaina’s episode with the focusing iris, there’s a healthy level of skepticism of ancient artifacts of war not being used simply because they’re in Alliance hands.

Also, Jaina did not expel the Sunreavers for helping the Horde. They had done that before. She expelled them because the used Dalaran as a weapon in the war.

And Jaina didn’t? The Sunreavers merely countered Jaina’s pro-Alliance behavior. If Jaina had not engaged with the Alliance against the Horde by putting up sophisticated magics to defend the Divine Bell from the Horde, there would have been no need for the Sunreavers to use their own magical prowess to counter her efforts.

[DeLos]

Okay, lets compare:

Thrall responds to an attack against Ogrimmar. The elements showed him a vision of what was coming. He knew the consequences of not acting.
Jaina responds to a threat to everyone. Remember, they have already seen what the Sha can do. She knows how dangerous it is. So, she sees the consequences of not acting. It is not baseless assumption.

Both threats come from a member of the opposite factional tie.
Thrall acts to stop the attack but does not attack the Alliance
Jaina acts to stop the attack but does not attack the Horde.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

That’s just baseless conjecture, on par with the “She was going to take it to Dalaran” claim. The Alliance took it for two stated reasons (a) to keep it from Garrosh and (b) to study it. How can you possibly claim the Alliance wouldn’t use the Divine Bell after studying it? How can you claim they would use an item this way or that way before they even know what, exactly, they have?

Baseless conjecturing?! She saw the results of the sha. She knows exactly what releasing them can do. Seeing that as a threat is seriously a no brainer.
And while taking the Bell to Dalaran is conjecture, it is far from baseless. We know the Kirin Tor shtick is guarding artifacts. We know the Alliance had full control of the bell and then turned it over to Jaina. Conjecture that it is going to Dalaran is somewhat guess, but it has a lot of logical merit.
Saying the Alliance planed to study it and/or to use on the other hand is worse then baseless. First, the Alliance was looking for a way to neutralize it. Anduin spent his time looking for the Mallet, even while the player was chasing the bell. There is NO mention anywhere of the Alliance keeping it for study. I know the Alliance was not going to study the bell the same way I know they would not use it. It was already decided NOT to. Varian already had a chance to start researching the Sha, and refused. The idea of weaponizing the Sha was already discussed. He decided the cost was to great. So, yes I know the Alliance was not going to use it. Suggesting they where going is worse then baseless as we not only have no evidence for it, we have evidence AGAINST it.

And what part of "using Dalaran" do you not get? Jaina didn't. She probably should have, in hindsight. No Kirin Tor casters helped her. No Kirin Tor artifacts. Nothing from the city. The only tie to Dalaran was the fact that she happened to be the leader as well. But she did NOT use the city.

Sunreavers on the other hand: Used the city in an ATTACK on the Alliance.

How do you not see that keeping an uncontrollable WMD from being used is not the same as using Dalaran as a weapon attack Alliance territory is not even remotely the same thing?

Edit:
Please drop the 'Jaina is so untrustworthy because of the focusing iris incident'.
You watch your loved ones, neighbors, friends, etc get slaughter in front of you and then get pumped full of drugs (basically what the magic infusion was) and tell me how well you act.

[DeLos]

Jaina doesn't respond to any threat, she assists in hiding the weapon in Darnassus so the Horde can't get to it and so the Night Elves can study it.

She is assisting keep a weapon that cannot be controlled away from someone trying to use it. Sounds like a threat to me.

Do we know that?
Can you link me the part where the Alliance turned it over to Jaina?
All the information I find tells us that Jaina is assisting the Alliance in hiding it.

We know the Alliance had full and complete control of it. And then Jaina has control of it. Sounds like turning it over to me.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Questarnassus_Attacked%3F
As you know, our night elven allies moved the [Divine Bell] you retrieved to Darnassus for safekeeping and study.

No mention, you say?

I missed one note of the word study. But, given Tyrande was in agreement with Varian about the Sha NOT being used. The only purpose of the study would have been to neutralize it. Maybe a research parallel to Anduins. Again, the Alliance already had a chance prior to the bell to start studying and weaponizing the Sha. They chose not to. So you can safely say that there was no new Alliance weapon coming out of the Bell. The Alliance claimed the bell to prevent is use, period. Not get a weapon against the Horde. Which goes back to why Jaina could help in that endeavor without taking any side.

And again, I go back to Jaina and Dalaran are not about putting their collective heads in the sand and waiting for the war to end. They want peace. Did Jaina protecting Thrall from Varian in the Undercity mean that she was 'helping the Horde'? She has shown in the past she will act to keep things from getting worse. You can do that while remaining neutral. In fact this the purge and resulting move of the Kirin Tor to Alliance is the first time Jaina has been squarely behind the Alliance. Even while technically Alliance she acted to try and maintain peace.

I know the Blood Elves had a hard choice. I know they were facing Garrosh's anger (rock) on one side and lose of Dalaran (hard place) on the other. But they knew the consequences. One of the NPCs even tells Horde players if they get caught they will be expelled. They got caught. They hoped to placate Garrosh and slip by without anyone in Dalaran outside the Sunreavers finding out. It didn't work out for them.

I know the idea of Horde actually having consequences for doing bad things is hard to get used to. But they screwed up and actually have to pay for it this time.

[Jediguy]

Jaina responds to a threat to everyone.

Incorrect; Jaina responds to a threat specifically against the Alliance and only the Alliance. Garrosh, rash as he may be, has indicated no other target for his war machine or the bell other than the Alliance.

Remember, they have already seen what the Sha can do. She knows how dangerous it is.

And yet they don’t know what, exactly, the bell is. Hence the Alliance feeling a need to study it in Darnassus. The fact is Jaina doesn’t really know much about the Bell, only that it’s a powerful artifact and she would rather have the Alliance possess it than the Horde; hence why she put protective barriers around it in Darnassus instead of quickly teleporting it away to Dalaran and locking it away.

Further still, simply because a weapon has the capacity to be used against more than just the Alliance does not justify Jaina taking said weapon away. Will Jaina pull an Obama and try taking all of Orgrimmar’s guns away next? I mean, gosh, that’s a danger to everyone, including the Kirin Tor! Zomg! Gotta take their weapons away and keep those weapons safe in Alliance hands! It’s blatant Alliance bias to engage in the conflict to ensure the Alliance possess a weapon and not the Horde.

Both threats come from a member of the opposite factional tie.

Actually, at that moment, Jaina was acting contrary to the Alliance as well. She was acting unilaterally and, had she succeeded, she would have wiped out the Alliance fleet (including Varian) on its way to Orgrimmar. You can’t honestly tell me she’s acting in the interest of the Alliance by killing its king and demolishing its fleet – she’s acting on her own behalf. Thrall was there to stop her abuse of the elements and, as a corollary of his concern for the elements, saved both the Horde AND Alliance from heavy damages.

Want to try to play the “Thrall” card again or are you starting to understand his neutrality in contrast to Jaina’s heavy anti-Horde bias?

Thrall acts to stop the attack but does not attack the Alliance

Indeed, he saves the Alliance from heavy losses as well. You’re welcome.

Jaina acts to stop the attack but does not attack the Horde.

On the contrary, Jaina helped the Alliance against the Horde and when her efforts were countered by Horde sympathizers in the Kirin Tor, she hypocritically blasted them for rendering aid to one side of the conflict and immediately starts imprisoning all Horde in Dalaran, killing those that disapprove of her methods, and confiscating their property. Sounds like a level-headed, rational, neutral leader to me…

Baseless conjecturing?! She saw the results of the sha. She knows exactly what releasing them can do. Seeing that as a threat is seriously a no brainer.

That the sha is dangerous is not in dispute, but thanks for the straw man. If the Alliance felt a need to study the Bell, that indicates they don’t know too much about it. Indeed, this was the first time they ever had a chance to even look at the thing. How in the world could they know it was “uncontrollable?” You’re giving the Alliance knowledge they don’t have and supposing something to be true that you don’t really know is true (after all, the Mogu apparently used it with great success to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies). Again, if Jaina was really concerned about keeping the artifact from being used, she should have teleported it away to Dalaran and locked it up next to the focus iris. But she didn’t do that, did she? Nope, she ensured the Alliance had a firm hold on the weapon, probably hoping they would eventually use it against the Horde, much like she wished to use the focusing iris.

And while taking the Bell to Dalaran is conjecture, it is far from baseless.

Oh? Show me a single sentence in any of the Alliance quest lines that supports this. Also, explain to me why Jaina put protective barriers around the Divine Bell in Darnassus instead of instantly teleporting it there for safe keeping from either side. I mean, apparently a non-mage player could do so in a split second. I would know – I’m a Horde Hunter and I did it. Surely Jaina, the most powerful mage in Azeroth, could have instantly teleported it to Dalaran, but the fact is she didn’t. She made every effort to ensure the Divine Bell remained securely in Alliance hands.

We know the Alliance had full control of the bell and then turned it over to Jaina.

When was it turned over to Jaina? All the quest dialogue indicates she merely put protective shields around it to keep it in Darnassus and thwart any Horde efforts to take it. If it was “turned over to her,” she should have teleported it instantly to Dalaran and locked it up next to the focusing iris. She didn’t. So, no, it wasn’t turned over to her.

Saying the Alliance planed to study it and/or to use on the other hand is worse then baseless.

You’re right, Jaina (now a full member of the Alliance along with the remaining members of the Kirin Tor) would never condone the use of a powerful artifact of war in a reckless manner… No, no, wait, nevermind.

First, the Alliance was looking for a way to neutralize it. Anduin spent his time looking for the Mallet, even while the player was chasing the bell.

Anduin is not representative of the Alliance, sorry. This may surprise you, but kids often want different things from adults, as clearly evidenced in the contrast between Jaina and Anduin over the use of the focusing iris.

There is NO mention anywhere of the Alliance keeping it for study.

Huh, then I wonder what this sentence is doing in the Alliance quest line…

Admiral Taylor: “As you know, our night elven allies moved the Divine Bell you retrieved to Darnassus for safekeeping and study”

(Reference: http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Darnassus_Attacked%3F)

So much for that…

I know the Alliance was not going to study the bell the same way I know they would not use it.

Haha, really? Well then, you might want to re-examine your shaky belief that they would not use it, since it’s pretty clear from the text quoted above that they intended to study it immediately upon getting it to Darnassus.

It was already decided NOT to. Varian already had a chance to start researching the Sha, and refused.

Apparently, Varian’s refusal to study isn’t shared by the rest of the Alliance.

The idea of weaponizing the Sha was already discussed. He decided the cost was to great. So, yes I know the Alliance was not going to use it.

Just like you knew they had no intention of studying it, eh? /giggle

And what part of "using Dalaran" do you not get? Jaina didn't. She probably should have, in hindsight. No Kirin Tor casters helped her. No Kirin Tor artifacts. Nothing from the city. The only tie to Dalaran was the fact that she happened to be the leader as well. But she did NOT use the city.

Members of the Kirin Tor are its most valuable assets, so yes, she did use Dalaran “assets” to aid the Alliance against the Horde: the most powerful of its mages - herself. What part of “neutral” do you not understand?

Sunreavers on the other hand: Used the city in an ATTACK on the Alliance.

Actually, they just went back home to Dalaran after teleporting the Divine Bell to Silvermoon City. How is going back home “using the city?” The only thing needed was the magical expertise of the Kirin Tor to work around Jaina’s magic. It was Alliance sympathizer versus Horde sympathizer, both based in Dalaran, both using their magic expertise to benefit those they sympathized with. You have yet to explain how the Sunreavers “used Dalaran” in a way that Jaina did not.

How do you not see that keeping an uncontrollable WMD from being used is not the same as using Dalaran as a weapon attack Alliance territory is not even remotely the same thing?

Dalaran didn’t attack Darnassus. Not sure which quests you were doing. No Night Elves were injured, no buildings were damaged, and the only thing that was taken was the thing the Night Elves took: The Divine Bell. And the taker was a Horde player (not even a Sunreaver!). The Sunreavers merely made it possible to work around Jaina’s magic, which she shouldn’t have put there in the first place in the interest of keeping the Kirin Tor truly neutral.

Please drop the 'Jaina is so untrustworthy because of the focusing iris incident'.
You watch your loved ones, neighbors, friends, etc get slaughter in front of you and then get pumped full of drugs (basically what the magic infusion was) and tell me how well you act.

(A) Jaina’s attitude toward the Horde remains openly hostile; it wasn’t just a temporary alteration due to magic (this was never confirmed and only speculated by Kalecgos, but even he knew that wouldn’t explain Jaina’s actions entirely), (B) Jaina’s extreme feelings of loss and rage over Theramore are precisely why she can’t be trusted with powerful artifacts of war. Justification over these feelings is irrelevant to how trustworthy she is while these feelings continue to guide her actions and warp her perception. It doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be angry, only that you don’t give an angry person access to a very dangerous weapon.

[Aquamonkey]

Okay, lets compare:

Thrall responds to an attack against Ogrimmar. The elements showed him a vision of what was coming. He knew the consequences of not acting.
Jaina responds to a threat to everyone. Remember, they have already seen what the Sha can do. She knows how dangerous it is. So, she sees the consequences of not acting. It is not baseless assumption.

Both threats come from a member of the opposite factional tie.
Thrall acts to stop the attack but does not attack the Alliance
Jaina acts to stop the attack but does not attack the Horde.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Jaina's attack was condemned by Varian and the Kirin Tor when she proposed it to them. She was acting as a rogue agent without the support of the Alliance. Therefore, Thrall did not protect Orgrimmar against an Alliance attack and was not breaking neutrality.

The Kirin Tor sent military support to Theramore, an Alliance city, to defend against a Horde attack. The Kirin Tor is far from neutral.

On the matter of Jaina guarding the Bell, I would have preferred she moved the Bell to the Kirin Tor vault, but I don't see it as breaking neutrality. She was doing it to protect the Horde as much as she was doing it to protect the Alliance.

Baseless conjecturing?! She saw the results of the sha. She knows exactly what releasing them can do. Seeing that as a threat is seriously a no brainer.
And while taking the Bell to Dalaran is conjecture, it is far from baseless. We know the Kirin Tor shtick is guarding artifacts. We know the Alliance had full control of the bell and then turned it over to Jaina. Conjecture that it is going to Dalaran is somewhat guess, but it has a lot of logical merit.
Saying the Alliance planed to study it and/or to use on the other hand is worse then baseless. First, the Alliance was looking for a way to neutralize it. Anduin spent his time looking for the Mallet, even while the player was chasing the bell. There is NO mention anywhere of the Alliance keeping it for study. I know the Alliance was not going to study the bell the same way I know they would not use it. It was already decided NOT to. Varian already had a chance to start researching the Sha, and refused. The idea of weaponizing the Sha was already discussed. He decided the cost was to great. So, yes I know the Alliance was not going to use it. Suggesting they where going is worse then baseless as we not only have no evidence for it, we have evidence AGAINST it.

While Varian condemned using the Bell against the Alliance, there was a high ranking member of his inner circle that wanted to use it against the Horde. If Varian died, there is nothing to stop this guy from using the Bell against the Horde as retribution.

It would have been much safer out of their hands so there would be no temptation to use it.

And what part of "using Dalaran" do you not get? Jaina didn't. She probably should have, in hindsight. No Kirin Tor casters helped her. No Kirin Tor artifacts. Nothing from the city. The only tie to Dalaran was the fact that she happened to be the leader as well. But she did NOT use the city.

Sunreavers on the other hand: Used the city in an ATTACK on the Alliance.

How do you not see that keeping an uncontrollable WMD from being used is not the same as using Dalaran as a weapon attack Alliance territory is not even remotely the same thing?

Stop with this bullshit of saying the Sunreavers attacked the Alliance. I already proved to you that the Sunreavers and the Blood Elf leadership had nothing to do with it. It was ONE Garrosh agent, Fanlyr, who just happened to be a Sunreaver. There were no other Sunreavers involved.

[Deleted]

One last time, individuals != organizations.

I bring yet again the example of Hamuul Runetotem, Archdruid and co-leader of the Cenarion Circle. He participated on the Horde attacks against Northwatch and Theramore. Does that make the Cenarion Circle Horde or in any ways break their neutrality? As far as we seen, no.

Every single other point of discussion so far is complete speculation and most likely will be answered on 5.2 (the spoilers hint to it).

[Jediguy]

I bring yet again the example of Hamuul Runetotem, Archdruid and co-leader of the Cenarion Circle. He participated on the Horde attacks against Northwatch and Theramore. Does that make the Cenarion Circle Horde or in any ways break their neutrality? As far as we seen, no.

This is a much better example than Thrall. Of course, this assumes that the Cenarion Circle is “neutral” in the same way the Kirin Tor is, but I’m willing to live with that. The problem of Jaina’s hypocrisy remains, though: why can she act on behalf of the Alliance while the Sunreavers (whether one individual or the whole lot) cannot? It’s inconsistent; they did the same thing Jaina did – aided those they sympathized with. How, then, can Jaina justify her murderous, oppressive, thieving rampage against the Horde in Dalaran? She can’t. She’s just mad she got beat at her own game.

[Deleted]

This is a much better example than Thrall. Of course, this assumes that the Cenarion Circle is “neutral” in the same way the Kirin Tor is, but I’m willing to live with that. The problem of Jaina’s hypocrisy remains, though: why can she act on behalf of the Alliance while the Sunreavers (whether one individual or the whole lot) cannot? It’s inconsistent; they did the same thing Jaina did – aided those they sympathized with. How, then, can Jaina justify her murderous, oppressive, thieving rampage against the Horde in Dalaran? She can’t. She’s just mad she got beat at her own game.

Though that's not the point. Hamuul fights for the Horde, yet he is a leader of Cenarion Circle. He doesn't use the Circle for the war.

The same was with Jaina, she fights for the Alliance, yet she doesn't use Dalaran or the Kirin-Tor for Alliance's purpose. Fanlyr (and we need to wait until 5.2 to know if more) used Dalaran for Horde's purpose.

[Jediguy]

Though that's not the point. Hamuul fights for the Horde, yet he is a leader of Cenarion Circle. He doesn't use the Circle for the war.

The same was with Jaina, she fights for the Alliance, yet she doesn't use Dalaran or the Kirin-Tor for Alliance's purpose. Fanlyr (and we need to wait until 5.2 to know if more) used Dalaran for Horde's purpose.

That is the point; that’s the point we’ve been talking about this entire thread: why is it that Jaina can aid the Alliance as the leader of the “neutral” Kirin Tor, but as soon as the Sunreavers render aid to the Horde against the Alliance, they have violated their neutrality and their actions are viewed as “betrayal?” Like I mentioned earlier, either (A) individuals of a neutral faction can render aid to those they sympathize with against the opposing faction, and Jaina is wrong for attacking Sunreavers in Dalaran for doing so, or (B) individuals of a neutral faction cannot render aid to those they sympathize with against the opposing faction, and Jaina is wrong for doing so. Either way, Jaina is wrong.

[Deleted]

That is the point; that’s the point we’ve been talking about this entire thread: why is it that Jaina can aid the Alliance as the leader of the “neutral” Kirin Tor, but as soon as the Sunreavers render aid to the Horde against the Alliance, they have violated their neutrality and their actions are viewed as “betrayal?” Like I mentioned earlier, either (A) individuals of a neutral faction can render aid to those they sympathize with against the opposing faction, and Jaina is wrong for attacking Sunreavers in Dalaran for doing so, or (B) individuals of a neutral faction cannot render aid to those they sympathize with against the opposing faction, and Jaina is wrong for doing so. Either way, Jaina is wrong.

No, it's not the point, the point of the thread is Character vs Player.

But the debate moved on from that and the point I'm trying to bring about is the fact that, unlike Jaina, whom acted as an individual with her own means, the Sunreavers used Dalaran, a neutral party, for their purpose. That's the difference. The Sunreavers always acted on their own before, in the support of the Horde.

[Boarwood]

I like how the Horde practically greets each other with "slay any human children in their homes today?" and when the Alliance is pushed to the wall and acts out once in all these years there's huge debates about "is the alliance EvIl?!?!"

[Aquamonkey]

No, it's not the point, the point of the thread is Character vs Player.

But the debate moved on from that and the point I'm trying to bring about is the fact that, unlike Jaina, whom acted as an individual with her own means, the Sunreavers used Dalaran, a neutral party, for their purpose. That's the difference. The Sunreavers always acted on their own before, in the support of the Horde.

Not the Sunreavers. ONE Sunreaver, Fanlyr, answering directly to Garrosh. No other Sunreavers were involved. If you take Aethas' actions as indicative of the faction, the Sunreavers have always opposed Garrosh's overaggressive actions. The faction itself had been in Dalaran for some time, completely independent of the Horde, until Wrath.

[Kavoo]

and there goes our plan of scaring the belves out of the horde. :/

[Deleted]

Not the Sunreavers. ONE Sunreaver, Fanlyr, answering directly to Garrosh. No other Sunreavers were involved. If you take Aethas' actions as indicative of the faction, the Sunreavers have always opposed Garrosh's overaggressive actions. The faction itself had been in Dalaran for some time, completely independent of the Horde, until Wrath.

Read what I quoted and I'll not enter on that debate until 5.2.

[Deleted]

snip

Ok this is too much quotebreaking, usually I do it too, but if there's so many small sentences, it's just a pain and I really don't want to answer each of them individually. It will just get worse and worse. And judging by what I'Ve read, I don't know if there's really much use arguing with you anymore. What bothers me the most is that you keep saying that when Jaina aids the Alliance, the Kirin Tor's neutrality is broken. And I've made lots of comments on that, but since you just repeat yourself instead of addressing those points, I don't see much sense in that.

Not really, because there isn't a Thrall card that applies to anything like this situation. The dude hasn't really done much since the end of Cata other than help heal the world. And the one big action he has taken is to help save the Echo Isles from Garrosh's goons (EDIT: And talked Jaina down from leveling Orgrimmar in that book).

His major screwup was putting Garrosh in charge of the Horde, but he didn't do it intending for Garrosh to become King Asshole.

Ok then let me explain the Thrall card.

Jaina is the leader of the Kirin Tor.
Thrall is the leader of the Earthen Ring.

Jaina helped the Alliance by putting protective spells on Darnassus to hide the bell (I assume)
Thrall helped the Horde by freeing the Darkspear Trolls.


Both acted on their own, but they chose to help one side of the conflict. If the Kirin Tor is not neutral anymore at this point, neither is the Earthen Ring. But I personally think that none of them have done anything that risks the neutrality of their group. It's perfectly fine if an individual helps his faction, even if it is the leader. Because it's not the whole group that takes this side. Jaina didn't lead her Kirin Tor mages into the battle against the Horde. Neither did Thrall lead his shamans into the battle against the Alliance.

That wasn't about the orcs. It was about the Horde. And let's be real here. Aside from a handful of radicals like (old) Jaina, the various component races of said Horde were generally treated as anything from primitive savages and underhanded con men to outright demonspawn by the Alliance as a geopolitical entity. Creatures fit only to be pushed to the edges of the world, and that was for the natives. The orcs got stuffed into concentration camps when they ceased being a threat, only because there was no way to shove them back into the ravaged Outland. "Open arms" my foot. Even the blood elves, actual members of the Alliance, were pushed out due to xenophobia.

And, it should be mentioned, when they made moves to come back, they were pushed out again, under the exact same circumstances, for the exact same reasons, by the one person who should have damn well known better.

You can't blame the humans for hating the orcs after what they've done. I already said that those people didn't welcome them with open arms. They had no reason to. That there actually were people like Jaina, who trusted them, was, considering what happens right now, more than they deserved.

The Garithos card is really lame. Varian even wanted them back in the Alliance. The only one who acted xenophobic was Garithos, not the whole Alliance.

So she is completely innocent because at the last moment she decided not to commit genocide? (Y)
Yes, many people would do the same. Because they go crazy after seeing their town destroyed


1. I don't care. If you have spies in the enemy capital to find out the location before they arrive, that's the same as stealing.
2. Jaina is the leader of the Kirin-Tor and uses her power to aid the Alliance AGAINST the Horde.
Thrall helped the Darkspear Trolls against Garrosh. He didn't favour the Horde over the Alliance, so it's not the same.

I don't know about any spies in the Horde capital, the information about the location of the bell was learned in Kun-Lai, not in any Horde capital. And the Horde got the information by getting a vision. I don't think that if an Alliance member sneaks in there to get that same vision, and then the Alliance manages to get there first, that that should be considered stealing, and I haven't heard anyone else ever claiming that.

How did she use her power to aid the Alliance against the Horde? She put up protective spells on Darnassus (apparently). How does that go against the Horde. Is the Alliance not allowed to protect themselves against intruders?