Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Jediguy]

And how do you know that?

Know… what? I pointed out a number of things to you; not just one.

Claim 1: What was discovered outside of Darnassus by Jaina was a portal to Dalaran; not a portal from it. That's why the Sunreavers were no longer there; they used it to go to Dalaran. Whenever you see a portal in-game, you can use it to go to the portal’s specified location, but once you’re there, you can’t simply jump back into the portal, because there’s no portal to jump back into. You’ve been dropped off. If you want to go back, the only option to do so is to create another portal. I know this because I’ve played a mage as my main for years. I’ve opened portals. I’ve teleported. I know this from experience. I suppose, though, that even if portals were both ways, it still wouldn't mean they "used Dalaran," only that's where they happen to come from, just as I could stand in the middle of the Violet Citadel in Dalaran, open a portal to Stonard, and kill Alliance attacking it without being accused of "using Dalaran" to carry out my actions against the Alliance; simply because I traveled from Dalaran doesn't mean I used Dalaran to accomplish my ends.

Claim 2: The portal to Dalaran was outside the city. I know this because I participated in taking the Divine Bell. I saw the Sunreaver camp, enveloped by an invisibility shield, outside Darnasuss – not in it. It was that camp that Jaina’s blue orbs led her to in the Alliance quest. If the portal was outside the city, then it could not have been the already existing infrastructure connecting Dalaran to Darnassus; they weren’t even in Darnassus.

Claim 3: Mages can open portals to Dalaran anywhere in the world. How do I know this? I’ve done it. I can hop on my mage and go into the very heart of the Black Temple or the depths of Deepholme and I can create a portal to Dalaran anywhere I please. This does not, however, mean that I was “using Dalaran” in whatever I was doing in these places.

Additional Claim: Mages can open portals to a lot of places; not just pre-set faction cities. This is evidenced by Rhonan who, just as the mana bomb was about to destroy Theramore, opened a portal leading a fair distance outside the city, and pushed Jaina through it. He didn’t need to rely upon some sort of pre-existing infrastructure (the portal led to the wilderness along the coast, not some high traffic area people traveled often). If Rhonan can quickly open a portal by himself to some place in the wilderness clearly outside a faction city without “using Dalaran,” then why in the world would other members of the Kirin Tor (like the Sunreavers) be unable to do the same? There’s simply no reason to assume they couldn’t and history shows us that they could, contrary to your claim.

[khalltusk]

This is still raging on?

Jaina acted in an un neutral way (a justified one to keep the bell away from Garrosh) by assisting the alliance shield the Bell in Darnassus. Thats plain and simple for all to see. She reacted quite badly to what a few sun reavers had done but its still justified to an extent. Personally I want jaina to be brought down a few pegs as this expac is all about teaching why this horde alliance war is costly and the hatred will only fester and ruin. Jaina so far is ramping up to going all out on the horde. I want someone to go along and give her an uppercut might knock some sense into her.

[Darth-Piekus]

Khalltusk the only uppercut that will be dealt is to Garrosh and all his lackeys in the upcoming siege. Now let's be honest. If we want to talk about who broke Neutrality First I can say that this wouldn't happen if Garrosh didn't started it. After all he has been attacking Neutral Factions from Cataclysm. Or did we forget that it was Sylvannas who attacked Dalaran Mages at the Silverpine Forest first? So there you have it. What happened with the Kirin Tor would have happened sooner or later. The question is if other Neutral Factions will follow. After all. Many of them have reasons to stand against Garrosh.

[DFu4ever]

To be fair, Ambermill, although run by the Kirin Tor, acts as a safe haven for Alliance deep in what is considered to be Forsaken territory. It was only a matter of time before Sylvanas decided that it had to go. It would be just as justified for Varian to take similar action if the Sunreavers set up a town in Westfall and offered safe haven to Horde.

The Forsaken finally took out Southshore for nearly the same reason, as it housed an Alliance garrison within their territory.

EDIT: I believe the Forsaken have the most actively invaded territory in the game, which makes Alliance outrage at their actions pretty odd. Desperate times demand desperate measures.

[Darth-Piekus]

The Town of Ambermill never attacked anyone though. By attacking them they provoke the Kirin Tor and it was about time that happened.

About Southshore was a peacefull village and never attacked anyone. Not to mention that it wasn't in Lordaeron that Sylvannas wants. Of course though the Lordaeron excuse died cause we all know that Sylvannas has other goals besides Lordaeron.

[Drilnos]

Khalltusk the only uppercut that will be dealt is to Garrosh and all his lackeys in the upcoming siege. Now let's be honest. If we want to talk about who broke Neutrality First I can say that this wouldn't happen if Garrosh didn't started it. After all he has been attacking Neutral Factions from Cataclysm. Or did we forget that it was Sylvannas who attacked Dalaran Mages at the Silverpine Forest first? So there you have it. What happened with the Kirin Tor would have happened sooner or later. The question is if other Neutral Factions will follow. After all. Many of them have reasons to stand against Garrosh.

The Kirin Tor at Ambermill were intending to provide magical aid to an Alliance invasion force aimed at taking Lordaeron from the Forsaken, and being that they were sitting on a ley line there, it would have been quite a lot of aid. Quotes from Archmage Ataeric, their leader:

Archmage Ataeric yells: The armies of the Alliance will march upon your bones!
Archmage Ataeric yells: Lordaeron belongs to the Alliance. You only delay the inevitable...

Real neutral, that guy. But in a sense you're correct, it would indeed have happened eventually. The Kirin Tor is after all mostly comprised of a bunch of slimy, spineless, backstabbing racists and xenophobes, and the thought that a blood elf faction could coexist with them indefinitely is preposterous on its face. Kael'thas learned that the hard way, and so did Aethas. They only turned neutral to begin with because they needed Horde support in their losing war with Malygos, and once they got what they needed, oops, don't need you guys anymore, back in the dungeons you go.

If I don't get to attack Jaina in the course of this expansion, I will feel cheated.

[DFu4ever]

The Town of Ambermill never attacked anyone though. By attacking them they provoke the Kirin Tor and it was about time that happened.

About Southshore was a peacefull village and never attacked anyone. Not to mention that it wasn't in Lordaeron that Sylvannas wants. Of course though the Lordaeron excuse died cause we all know that Sylvannas has other goals besides Lordaeron.

Both locations were Alliance staging grounds for operations within Lordaeron. No nation, Horde or Alliance, would tolerate such a presence in their homeland if they could help it.

[styvan01]

Heres my two cents in the form of real life events. On December 7, 1941 the Japanese attacked the otherwise neutral American people signifying Americas entry into World War 2. Now America declared war, and then to make sure they didnt have spies in the government, they imprisoned all people of Japanese descent. Skip a few years to the Red Scare, where people were accusing of their neighbors, family, and friends of being communist. And the American government were imprisoning those people without a fair trial, sometimes even deporting them. And September 11, 2001, where a group of radical Muslims hyjacked a few planes and used them as missiles killing thousands. The President didnt say that all Muslims are bad, only the radical ones. Tho hundreds and maybe thousands remain in prison at Guantanamo Bay, and thousands have died in the War on Terror.

Now heres my point. If you remember the beginning entry of the Purge of Dalaran for the Alliance, Jaina walks up to Aethas Sunreaver, and kills 2-3 of his guards. They dont even try to fight, she just out rights murder them. Then she accuses Sunreaver of betraying the Kirin Tor, and before imprisoning him, kills 2-3 more guards. You go to Vereesa Windrunner (whos a genocidal bitch) who says shes been waiting for this moment for sometime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70AIowEbp_g The link if anyone needs it. Even the Human paladin mentions genocide there. She has you imprison or kill the dragonhawks, so it makes exile much harder for the Sunreavers. Now IMO, it was just one person who betrayed who was also a spy of Hellscream. Jaina is too wound up since the destruction of Theramore to be a responsible leader.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Stop comparing this to a real life event.

[Jediguy]

Stop comparing this to a real life event.

If the boot fits...

I don't see how any honest person can do that Alliance quest line and not clearly see how wrong Jaina is in committing genocide. Alliance players kill unarmed Sunreaver citizens that are clearly cowering in terror before Jaina's onslaught. There is no trial, no effort to find out who, exactly, was involved and what, exactly, was done. She made herself judge, jury, and executioner after uncovering evidence that a Sunreaver countered her efforts. Jaina would make an excellent wife for Garrosh.

[Spl4sh3r]

He brings up innocent people being slain, this isn't true. Jaina was going around Dalaran teleporting civilians away from Dalaran while she teleported any hostiles (that fight back) to prison. While the player only attacked hostile and armed enemies.

[styvan01]

He brings up innocent people being slain, this isn't true. Jaina was going around Dalaran teleporting civilians away from Dalaran while she teleported any hostiles (that fight back) to prison. While the player only attacked hostile and armed enemies.

Yea watch the vid, you'll see her kill 4-5 people who dont even attack.

[Jediguy]

He brings up innocent people being slain, this isn't true.

So the unarmed Sunreaver citizens Alliance players are given a quest to kill, as seen in the referenced video, are… combatants? Really? Is this what the Alliance has come to: killing terrified, unarmed people not because they, themselves, did something but because Jaina Proudmoore doesn’t like the group they’re associated with? Haha, your brutal, blind hatred would make Garrosh proud!

Jaina was going around Dalaran teleporting civilians away from Dalaran while she teleported any hostiles (that fight back) to prison.

Um, no. Players are specifically given instructions to kill the Dragonhawks so the Sunreavers couldn’t escape. This makes no sense if Jaina merely wanted them out of the city. Veressa specifically says “NONE are to escape.” Doesn’t sound like Jaina and her posse had any desire to let the Sunreavers merely go back to Silvermoon.

While the player only attacked hostile and armed enemies.

Please watch the video again. What are the FIRST Sunreavers killed by the Alliance player for the quest given to him? Yep, you got it: unarmed Sunreavers terrorized by Jaina’s genocide. These kills count for quest completion, which means that killing these unarmed Blood Elves is what the quest giver, Veressa Windrunner, wants to accomplish in carrying out Jaina’s purge of Dalaran.

[Aquamonkey]

He brings up innocent people being slain, this isn't true. Jaina was going around Dalaran teleporting civilians away from Dalaran while she teleported any hostiles (that fight back) to prison. While the player only attacked hostile and armed enemies.

You are also ordered to murder Blood Elves attempting to flee in the quest Cashing Out.

"I just saw one of the Sunreavers - Brasael, I think his name was - running off in the direction of the bank to the north. No doubt he's trying to gather whatever assets he can before he leaves.

Head him off and make sure he doesn't steal any resources from our coffers. He relinquished whatever funds he left in the bank when he and his Sunreaver kind betrayed us."

Not only do you kill this guy, but you are also stealing the possessions of all the Sunreavers.

[Drilnos]

You are also ordered to murder Blood Elves attempting to flee in the quest Cashing Out.

"I just saw one of the Sunreavers - Brasael, I think his name was - running off in the direction of the bank to the north. No doubt he's trying to gather whatever assets he can before he leaves.

Head him off and make sure he doesn't steal any resources from our coffers. He relinquished whatever funds he left in the bank when he and his Sunreaver kind betrayed us."

Not only do you kill this guy, but you are also stealing the possessions of all the Sunreavers.

Brasael was the legacy justice quartermaster who sold Naxxramas gear. I remember someone from the other perspective at one point referred to this quest, describing how they "laughed" as they killed the "bank robber."

...

Just found another quest from the Alliance side, where you have to kill four shopkeepers. A scribe, a tailor, a blacksmith and an engineer. Shopkeepers.

How any Alliance player can come away from this without feeling like a murderer is beyond me.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Brasael was the legacy justice quartermaster who sold Naxxramas gear. I remember someone from the other perspective at one point referred to this quest, describing how they "laughed" as they killed the "bank robber."

...

Just found another quest from the Alliance side, where you have to kill four shopkeepers. A scribe, a tailor, a blacksmith and an engineer. Shopkeepers.

How any Alliance player can come away from this without feeling like a murderer is beyond me.

They don't see it as "murder" though. All they see are themselves killing some blood elves in the name of the Alliance.

[Trassk]

This is still raging on?

Jaina acted in an un neutral way (a justified one to keep the bell away from Garrosh) by assisting the alliance shield the Bell in Darnassus. Thats plain and simple for all to see. She reacted quite badly to what a few sun reavers had done but its still justified to an extent. Personally I want jaina to be brought down a few pegs as this expac is all about teaching why this horde alliance war is costly and the hatred will only fester and ruin. Jaina so far is ramping up to going all out on the horde. I want someone to go along and give her an uppercut might knock some sense into her.

Fact is, if Jaina goes down this path and keeps doing, she'll just be another raid boss, like Garrosh.

[Lastlivingsoul]

TO all those Boo Hooing about Dalaran let me make one thing clear.

The Horde dropped an Atomic Bomb on her homeland.

Instantly killing the innkeepers, tailors, blacksmiths, mothers, sons daughters and so on. And she watched as a close friend Rhonin went down with it.

Now after all that she was told to FORGIVE the people who did it. SHE DID by not returning the favor.

Now the people she just forgave just USED her again to help Garrosh get his bell. She has a right to be MORE than a little pissed.

They may have been acting under orders but consider this. After Theramore we were all given a tiny Arcane Bomb as a reminder of of the MASS MURDER of Theramore. Just to be fair maybe the Alliance should get an "Extra-Waxy Sunreaver Ear"* after the purge of Dalaran.

**http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32130 (This is your quest and you Horde cry about this -- pathetic)

[Sal the Shieldhog]

TO all those Boo Hooing about Dalaran let me make one thing clear.

The Horde dropped an Atomic Bomb on her homeland.

Instantly killing the innkeepers, tailors, blacksmiths, mothers, sons daughters and so on. And she watched as a close friend Rhonin went down with it.

Now after all that she was told to FORGIVE the people who did it. SHE DID by not returning the favor.

Now the people she just forgave just USED her again to help Garrosh get his bell. She has a right to be MORE than a little pissed.

They may have been acting under orders but consider this. After Theramore we were all given a tiny Arcane Bomb as a reminder of of the MASS MURDER of Theramore. Just to be fair maybe the Alliance should get an "Extra-Waxy Sunreaver Ear"* after the purge of Dalaran.

**http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32130 (This is your quest and you Horde cry about this -- pathetic)

The difference is WE (the player characters) didn't drop the bomb on Theramore. Garrosh did. My job was to save a fellow Blood Elf from Theramore's dungeons (which I did), I had no idea there was a WMD heading that way.

The ALLIANCE player characters directly and gleefully took part in mass genocide. You all knew what you were doing. And yet, you still did it.

I didn't kill defenseless civilians, shopkeepers, etc, in Theramore, I killed military personnel, people who knew what they were getting into when they signed up. You killed shopkeepers, defenseless civilians, and fleeing people (Seriously? People FLEEING for their lives. You chased them down like they were nothing more than cattle!), and knew you were doing it the entire time.

Whats more, Garrosh and his lackeys betrayed her (the ONE Sunreaver). Jaina took her anger out on the rest of the Sunreavers as punishment, many of whom had no clue what the hell was happening. Adding to that, she turned on Aethas, a dear friend, one who had suggested Kirin Tor aid during the Theramore siege, one who had rebuilt Dalaran, and one who had personally advocated her to become the new leader of the Kirin Tor. If THAT doesn't say Jaina is losing it (even a little), I don't know what will convince you people.

[Deleted]

They don't see it as "murder" though. All they see are themselves killing some blood elves in the name of the Alliance.

Killing unarmed civilians is murder, even Garrosh agrees with it. Jaina is clearly blinded by hate and possibly out of her mind by now, much like Arthas was during the culling of Stratholme.