Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Combatbutler]

So let's use the Horde logic against them then: two people don't speak for an entire faction.

Right?

The Blood Elves chose their own path. They can't blame the Alliance for the path they chose to walk down.

It was the official ambassador from Ironforge and quite a few Night elves that took key leyline nexi in the Ghostlands. So they joined the horde out of convenience.

This could be considered a defense of all life issue, rather than just an Alliance one.

His motives were not that ambitious, they wanted to show Garrosh, that the Kirin Tor won't tolerate his warmongering and acted as a deterrent(defending only), nothing more nothing less.

[Darth-Piekus]

I remember a thread back during Cataclysm where players discussed the possibility of the Neutral Factions turning against the Horde in favor of the Alliance. I mentioned in that thread that with the way Garrosh's Horde and mostly Garrosh is acting it won't be far when the Neutral Factions may find him and his supporters as dangerous as Arthas or Deathwing. I was told back then by other Horde and Garrosh fans that this would never happen. 5 Months later this thread confirms me. I understand that not all Sunreavers were guilty but the guilty took the innocents with them. I also understand that some people here don't like it but this is a finished fact. The Sunreavers are out of Dalaran either by one or many gyilty breathren of theirs. Trying to find every hole in the rulebook to see if they are innocent or not doesn't really change anything. Asking for Jaina's head won't change also anything as Jaina won't go anywhere. In the end the best thing is to keep sharpening your swords for Garrosh's head cause the Blood of the Sunreavers is in his hands.

[Combatbutler]

I remember a thread back during Cataclysm where players discussed the possibility of the Neutral Factions turning against the Horde in favor of the Alliance. I mentioned in that thread that with the way Garrosh's Horde and mostly Garrosh is acting it won't be far when the Neutral Factions may find him and his supporters as dangerous as Arthas or Deathwing. I was told back then by other Horde and Garrosh fans that this would never happen. 5 Months later this thread confirms me. I understand that not all Sunreavers were guilty but the guilty took the innocents with them. I also understand that some people here don't like it but this is a finished fact. The Sunreavers are out of Dalaran either by one or many gyilty breathren of theirs. Trying to find every hole in the rulebook to see if they are innocent or not doesn't really change anything. Asking for Jaina's head won't change also anything as Jaina won't go anywhere. In the end the best thing is to keep sharpening your swords for Garrosh's head cause the Blood of the Sunreavers is in his hands.

The main problem with this is Dalaran should have never been neutral in the first place, the blood elves shouldn't have helped the Kirin Tor in their Northrend campaign.

[hanabi12]

I love that quest as horde, i get to kill so many weak stormwind troops. Alliance has no logistics and don't know how to fight.

[Combatbutler]

I love that quest as horde, i get to kill so many weak stormwind troops. Alliance has no logistics and don't know how to fight.

Post constructive or don't post at all please, considering on what short notice Jaina started the purge it went surprisingly well.

[Deleted]

It was the official ambassador from Ironforge and quite a few Night elves that took key leyline nexi in the Ghostlands. So they joined the horde out of convenience.

His motives were not that ambitious, they wanted to show Garrosh, that the Kirin Tor won't tolerate his warmongering and acted as a deterrent(defending only), nothing more nothing less.

The Blood Elves nonetheless chose to join the Horde. The Alliance wasn't at war with them.

As for the Kirin Tor, I'll concede that point. They weren't neutral in Theramore, but like you said, they were defending a city as opposed to siding with the Alliance. Jaina wanted to keep them neutral (which the Alliance questline clearly shows) but people's loyalties lied elsewhere.

It doesn't justify stealing the Bell for the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

It doesn't justify stealing the Bell for the Horde.

If all the sunreavers were responsible I would agree with you in a heartbeat, but they weren't, now the horde has more magi on their side.

The Blood Elves nonetheless chose to join the Horde. The Alliance wasn't at war with them.

Back then the Horde and Alliance were at peace and one of them actively spied on them and occupied their territory, which is why it was the logical choice to join the horde. If the Alliance hadn't spied on them, things could have turned out quite differently.

[Deleted]

Just like the real world, you investigate suspicious people. You prioritize high risk people and determine what their sympathies are and who their contacts are. It might also help to have counterintelligence agents close to Garrosh to find out who could potentially be a spy. Or you have a counterintelligence agents go under cover as a Garrosh sympathizer. Or have counterintelligence people keep tabs on high ranking members of Garrosh's inner circle.

Never has there been an instance in the real world that wasn't massively condemned where innocent people were blanket persecuted.

Why is it all if a sudden so important whether they investigated if Kel'Thuzad had any accomplices, when he researched Necromancy. Is this just to somehow blame Dalaran for slacking so we can have something more to say against them? It seems so random.

[Combatbutler]

Why is it all if a sudden so important whether they investigated if Kel'Thuzad had any accomplices, when he researched Necromancy. Is this just to somehow blame Dalaran for slacking so we can have something more to say against them? It seems so random.

It is important so that they can be certain it won't repeat itself, but the Kirrin Tor never were thorough, which lead to one betrayal after another. I doubt it will stop after the Sunreavers are gone for good.

[Deleted]

If all the sunreavers were responsible I would agree with you in a heartbeat, but they weren't, now the horde has more magi on their side.



Back then the Horde and Alliance were at peace and one of them actively spied on them and occupied their territory, which is why it was the logical choice to join the horde. If the Alliance hadn't spied on them, things could have turned out quite differently.

The Sunreavers were already on their side. The moment the Sunreavers helped the Horde and the Covenant helped the Alliance in WotLK they both each took sides.

[Combatbutler]

The Sunreavers were already on their side. The moment the Sunreavers helped the Horde and the Covenant helped the Alliance in WotLK they both each took sides.

The sunreavers as a whole did not interfere, they remained in Dalaran minding their own business among their fellow Kirin Tor, until a few screwed up and they all were kicked out and those who were innocent feel betrayed and take up arms(Sunreaver Onslaught).

[Deleted]

It is important so that they can be certain it won't repeat itself, but the Kirrin Tor never were thorough, which lead to one betrayal after another. I doubt it will stop after the Sunreavers are gone for good.

It feels like you are just trying to fish something up so that you can point a finger at the Kirin Tor. Chances are, when Blizzard made up that part about Kel'Thuzad they just didn't think that deep. That plot point served to build up a character that served the Lich King, not to show the Kirin Tor in a bad light.

[DFu4ever]

Silverpine belongs to the Forsaken? I saw lots of Alliance there in vanilla.

The Forsaken attacked Gilneas to retrieve the Scythe of Elune. It was an unprovoked attack, not self-defense.

Silverpine is part of Lordaeron, the Forsaken's homeland. Any Alliance there were pretty much invading (with the assistance of the Kirin Tor at Ambermill, I might add.

And the Forsaken were ordered to attack Gilneas because Garrosh wanted a port city in the Eastern Kingdoms, or something along those lines.

The Blood Elves nonetheless chose to join the Horde. The Alliance wasn't at war with them.

One of the reasons they joined the Horde was because Sylvanas offered them support in their fight against the Scourge. The Horde actually helped them in their time of need, you see.

[Combatbutler]

It feels like you are just trying to fish something up so that you can point a finger at the Kirin Tor. Chances are, when Blizzard made up that part about Kel'Thuzad they just didn't think that deep. That plot point served to build up a character that served the Lich King, not to show the Kirin Tor in a bad light.

Jaina herself says the Kirin Tor have a history of betrayal and that my friend is a fact, Kelthuzad was the first major traitor, but hardly the last. During the nexus war many Kirin Tor turned against their former comrades. If i wanted to paint the Kirin Tor in a bad way I would use entirely different arguments, right now I am merely stating facts.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 06:17 PM ----------

One of the reasons they joined the Horde was because Sylvanas offered them support in their fight against the Scourge. The Horde actually helped them in their time of need, you see.

Though it came back to haunt them in the end, which left to quite the rift between Silvermoon and Undercity.

[Deleted]

The sunreavers as a whole did not interfere, they remained in Dalaran minding their own business among their fellow Kirin Tor, until a few screwed up and they all were kicked out and those who were innocent feel betrayed and take up arms(Sunreaver Onslaught).

But I explained this. Jaina didn't think she could trust them anymore. And I'm sure that's not true for each and everyone of them, but if 2 of them betrayed you, you have to consider that it might happen again and again.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 06:34 PM ----------

Jaina herself says the Kirin Tor have a history of betrayal and that my friend is a fact, Kelthuzad was the first major traitor, but hardly the last. During the nexus war many Kirin Tor turned against their former comrades. If i wanted to paint the Kirin Tor in a bad way I would use entirely different arguments, right now I am merely stating facts.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 06:17 PM ----------



Though it came back to haunt them in the end, which left to quite the rift between Silvermoon and Undercity.

But you are bringing up those fact to blame this on the Kirin Tor and it seems totally random. Is there something about the Kirin Tor that attracts traitors? Did they encourage Kel to do that stuff?

[DFu4ever]

Though it came back to haunt them in the end, which left to quite the rift between Silvermoon and Undercity.

I am guessing you are implying about Sylvanas requesting Silvermoon troops for Northrend? I don't see that as anything more than saying "Okay, we've been helping you, time to help the rest of the team." It isn't really blackmail, it's an expectation that allies have of one another. If you aren't going to support the alliance, then why the hell is the alliance going to keep supporting you?

Lor'themar and Rommath may not have liked having to commit troops, but the request was perfectly reasonable in context.

[Verdugo]

But you are bringing up those fact to blame this on the Kirin Tor and it seems totally random. Is there something about the Kirin Tor that attracts traitors? Did they encourage Kel to do that stuff?

They are mages, and mages seek power.

[Deleted]

They are mages, and mages seek power.

So do Warlocks. So do Demon Hunters. So do Death Knights. So does pretty much every class anyway. Some shamans like those in the Twilight's Hammer.

[Combatbutler]

But I explained this. Jaina didn't think she could trust them anymore. And I'm sure that's true for each and everyone of them, but if 2 of them betrayed you, you have to consider that it might happen again and again.

Yes though given the history of the Kirin Tor, the treachery was hardly surprising.

But you are bringing up those fact to blame this on the Kirin Tor and it seems totally random. Is there something about the Kirin Tor that attracts traitors? Did they encourage Kel to do that stuff?

No they did not, but magi are ambitious people that strive for power and are intertwined into intrigues and secrecy, which is a breeding ground for treachery.

[hanabi12]

Only if the alliance know how to fight they wouldn't have lost so many territories to the horde since Cata. Their leaders are weak, can't even protect your son lol. Have fun being a vegetable Anduin.