Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Haven]

I'm assuming most of the common Draenei running around today aren't those that originally fled Argus. These younger Draenei would be weaker in arcane magic due to their culture not cultivating that kind of knowledge/tradition. This could explain the lack of prominent Draenei mages.

I would argue that the original Draenei still living to be as knowledgeable about arcane as they were 25,000 years ago. They're just out of practice due to abandoning arcane magic for the Light. If one of these original Draenei set their mind to it, I don't imagine it would take too long to regain most of their arcane proficiency.

Perhaps you're right, but my point still stands. Look at the Exodar - draenei workers are still sifting through debris. Menial labor! It's hard to imagine blood elves doing the same.

Also, notice how that Norgannon dude "ignored" that post of mine. Didn't want to try answering something that completely destroyed his point

[Deleted]

Perhaps you're right, but my point still stands. Look at the Exodar - draenei workers are still sifting through debris. Menial labor! It's hard to imagine blood elves doing the same.

Also, notice how that Norgannon dude "ignored" that post of mine. Didn't want to try answering something that completely destroyed his point

You mean that post about Eredar and Blood Elves? Maybe he gave it up because arguing with you is tiresome. Nothing you said really showed that the Eredar/Draenei aren't a powerful mage race. It's been always said that they are and the distinction between the original Eredar that they were back in the days before the Legion corrupted them, and the Draenei that they are now, is really just name-wise.

[Haven]

You mean that post about Eredar and Blood Elves? Maybe he gave it up because arguing with you is tiresome. Nothing you said really showed that the Eredar/Draenei aren't a powerful mage race. It's been always said that they are and the distinction between the original Eredar that they were back in the days before the Legion corrupted them, and the Draenei that they are now, is really just name-wise.

So they could summon the power of Light and had shadow resistance before they met Naaru?

So they can stop doing menial labor and create arcane laborers, but just choose not to?

So there are some powerful draenei mages I alone don't know about?

[Deleted]

So they could summon the power of Light and had shadow resistance before they met Naaru?

So they can stop doing menial labor and create arcane laborers, but just choose not to?

So there are some powerful draenei mages I alone don't know about?

Humans are powerful mages too, but they don't use the same kind of "enchanted broom" thingy. The reason is not because they can't. Do you really think it takes a powerful mage to enchant a broom? You see it among the Blood Elves because of flavor.

[Deleted]

Because he was the ONLY ONE. For the rest of the orcs, they were not slaves.

Actually, Lothar's statue on Burning Steppes was built by orc slaves.

[Deleted]

You see it among the Blood Elves because of flavor.

Exactly, it's point is to show how widespread he use of magic is amongst Blood/High Elves, unlike in Human societies. Nothing new, considering they have been using it for nearly 10000 years.

[Deleted]

Are you drunk? It is said everywhere in the lore that High Elves are almost extinct. Again, stop pulling lies out of your arse.
http://www.wowpedia.org/High_elves#Population

The Alliance still has a large amount of high elves. Just because they are relatively few compared to the other races doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quoted from your own source:

"The high elves of today are 1% of the original high elf population, with the blood elves comprising 9% of it".

Check the Silver Covenant.

Scourge != Forsaken. Don't be dishonest. And it was Sylvanas who proposed to help the Blood Elves, it wasn't them who asked for their help.
And why are you using something done by Sylvanas in the current time ir order to attack a decision made 5 years ago? Stop distorting lore and arguments in your own benefit, that's intellectually dishonest.

Because even before the Blood Elves joined the Horde the Forsaken were creating a new plague.

The Forsaken are ex-Scourge. Everyone knew at the time that Blizzard were bending the lore to give the Horde a pretty race.

That's right, but it wasn't allied either. It was a perfect chance to bring them back into the Alliance, and instead they just ignored and cheated them. Again. Fucking brilliant.

It's hard to trust vampire elves who sided with demons.

It's pretty clear by now you have no idea what you're talking about.
Garithos was the Grand Marshal of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and there was no King, or any Royal Familly, so Garithos was de facto and de jure in charge of the Alliance. How can you say "everyone knew" he wasn't the voice of the Alliance, is there any proper source, or are you again just making things up? (rhetorical question)
Jaina was on the other side of the Ocean, cut off from Lordaeron. It doesn't matter what she'd do, she wasn't present. Even if she were, she wouldn't be in charge, so it's irrelevant.

Garithos was not the true voice of the Alliance nor was he the king. He just happened to take command but if he had been around now he would have been immediately replaced.

It's not a weak excuse, the Alliance was pretty stupid because they could regain a friend, and instead ditched the opportunity they had. I'm not talking about Gilneas, no idea why you're bringing that up.

I bring it up because it shows Horde hypocrisy. You are going out of your minds over Jaina removing the Sunreavers from Dalaran but don't care when the Forsaken invade Gilneas and kill Gilneans for no reason. It was a completely unprovoked attack.

Where are your tears for the Gilneans? The Alliance didn't even touch Silvermoon but you guys run to the Horde as if they are saviors. The Forsaken invade Gilneas and yet you don't care.

Neither did the Horde. The difference is that a part of the Horde (Forsaken) lended their help, while the Alliance decided to "lend" spies.What's your point?

The point is the Alliance didn't really do anything, so the Blood Elves decide to become the enemies of the Alliance?

Yeah that makes sense.

It's just another lorelol. Blizz remade the lore to give the Horde pretty elves. That's all.

I'm all for calling Garithos an anomaly and that most Humans don't share his views. The fact remains he was the leader, therefore he speaks for the Alliance. He was a racist that abused the Blood Elves AS THE LEADER. His underlings did nothing to stop this persecution. The Kirin Tor were complicit when Garithos imprisoned the Blood Elves in Dalaran.

It's the same thing with Garrosh. He is the leader. He speaks for the Horde as an organization. His opinions don't reflect everyone in the Horde, but so far, nobody has done anything to stop him (except Aethas, Theron, Baine, and Vol'jin).

Then we agree that Garithos wasn't the true voice of the Alliance. If he had been in any position of authority now he would have been replaced. High elves served with Jaina in Kalimdor perfectly fine.

[Scummer]

Actually, Lothar's statue on Burning Steppes was built by orc slaves.

I persoanlly still reckon that there should be some sort of statue to Lothar in Stormwind . His one in the Burning Steppes is too far away to appreciate especially for a character that gave and did so much Stormwind.

[Combatbutler]

You just said that it was hardly surprising the Sunreavers betrayed them. I'm not arguing they throw them out based on nothing at all. I was just trying to draw the consequence from your claim. I think saying that magi are a secretive backstabbing bunch is a bit much. Have we seen any of that from the magi in the Alliance or the Horde? Except the Sunreavers.

Of course it was hardly surprising another Sunreaver would betray them it was only a matter of time after the events in Theramore.
Are you blind? Magi caused the sundering, Human magi were aware they drew the attention of the legion and still wouldn't stop the use of magic instead created the council of Tirisfal with the elves,created the cult of the damned, tried to summon the burning legion, betrayed their own to commit mass genocide need I to go on?

[Deleted]

Actually, Lothar's statue on Burning Steppes was built by orc slaves.

orc prisoners

---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 05:02 PM ----------

Of course it was hardly surprising another Sunreaver would betray them it was only a matter of time after the events in Theramore.
Are you blind? Magi caused the sundering, Human magi were aware they drew the attention of the legion and still wouldn't stop the use of magic instead created the council of Tirisfal with the elves,created the cult of the damned, tried to summon the burning legion, betrayed their own to commit mass genocide need I to go on?

Are you now trying to convince me that the Sunreavers couldn't be trusted? If that was so obvious then Jaina shouldn't even have given them a second chance. All the other stuff about mages is 100% true. They did cause a lot of trouble in the past. They are a dangerous lot, which is why a lot of people don't trust them. And I have never claimed otherwise.

[Combatbutler]

Are you now trying to convince me that the Sunreavers couldn't be trusted? If that was so obvious then Jaina shouldn't even have given them a second chance. All the other stuff about mages is 100% true. They did cause a lot of trouble in the past. They are a dangerous lot, which is why a lot of people don't trust them. And I have never claimed otherwise.

My point is the Sunreavers are hardly the only ones that can't be trusted, magi in general have proven that they can't be 100% trusted. My point is, it is just as likely for a non Sunreraver to turn traitor as a Sunreaver. That is the well deserved stigma of Magi

[Deleted]

My point is the Sunreavers are hardly the only ones that can't be trusted, magi in general have proven that they can't be 100% trusted. My point is, it is just as likely for a non Sunreraver to turn traitor as a Sunreaver. That is the well deserved stigma of Magi

You still don't understand the situation. The Sunreavers were thrown out because they betrayed the neutrality of Dalaran. Not because they were power-hungry mages.

[Combatbutler]

You still don't understand the situation. The Sunreavers were thrown out because they betrayed the neutrality of Dalaran. Not because they were power-hungry mages.

I get your point, but it changes little to nothing, since a minority was responsible and just a few years prior a far worse wave of treachery swept through the Kirin Tor, yet this time every member of the Organisation must be purged from Dalaran, if the Krin Tor had acted that way in the past they could have just disbanded their order.

[Deleted]

I get your point, but it changes little to nothing, since a minority was responsible and just a few years prior a far worse wave of treachery swept through the Kirin Tor, yet this time every member of the Organisation must be purged from Dalaran, if the Krin Tor had acted that way in the past they could have just disbanded their order.

Because there was no suborganization like the Sunreavers back when Kel'thuzad or other mages betrayed them.

[Deleted]

The Alliance still has a large amount of high elves. Just because they are relatively few compared to the other races doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quoted from your own source:

"The high elves of today are 1% of the original high elf population, with the blood elves comprising 9% of it".

Check the Silver Covenant.

And do you think 1% of the original is "a large amount of high elves", like you said? If so, before the Scourge, Quel Thalas must have been like China or India.
...besides, until 5.1, the Silver Covenant was not a part of the Alliance since they are under the Kirin Tor, and therefore neutral.

Because even before the Blood Elves joined the Horde the Forsaken were creating a new plague.

The Forsaken are ex-Scourge. Everyone knew at the time that Blizzard were bending the lore to give the Horde a pretty race.

They were, and no one really liked it, because it poses a threat to even all other races of the Horde, it's obvious the Forsaken are only in the Horde due to personal interest against the Human threat on "their" lands, just like the BEs are only in because they had to find someone willing to help them. In fact, this goes on to prove what Lor'themar said, that the (current) Horde exists in reaction to the Alliance, which also means that it's much more fragile. The Alliance is a true alliance based on friendship, the Horde is not.

It's hard to trust vampire elves who sided with demons.

By calling them "vampires" you are already showing hostility towards the faction/race, it's stupid to even argue with someone like you, which is why this is the last post I make replying to your nonesense. And by the way, Blood Elves enjoyed demons so much, they went into a civil war with Kael after just one year. What's next, you're going to say they aren't over it because they still have his statues in Silvermoon?

Garithos was not the true voice of the Alliance nor was he the king. He just happened to take command but if he had been around now he would have been immediately replaced.

There we go again, pointless arguments again.
Garithos was a cunt, but he was the de facto leader because he was the GRAND MARSHAL, he exploited the High/Blood Elves in an even worse way the current Horde under Garrosh is doing because he hated them for his family events during the Second War. The difference is that the Horde will turn on it's stupid leader, and the Alliance didn't. Bad leaders can make tragic decisions and consequences.
It doesn't matter if another Alliance leader would have done something different or not because THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED, SO, AGAIN, IT DOES NOT MATTER.

I bring it up because it shows Horde hypocrisy. You are going out of your minds over Jaina removing the Sunreavers from Dalaran but don't care when the Forsaken invade Gilneas and kill Gilneans for no reason. It was a completely unprovoked attack.

Where are your tears for the Gilneans? The Alliance didn't even touch Silvermoon but you guys run to the Horde as if they are saviors. The Forsaken invade Gilneas and yet you don't care.

Again, I didn't say anything about Gilneas, you are just assuming I think it was a fair attack, I didn't say it was - and it wasn't, if that makes you happy.
In fact, having played Warcraft 2 at the time, and prior to showing up on WoW, Gilneas was my favourite Human Kingdom, after Stromgarde. I don't even like the Horde that much, I've played mostly on Alliance for nearly 8 years, it's you making false assumptions on people to favour your point of view.
And yes, Jaina was WAY out of her head, just like Arthas was during the culling of Stratholme when he was still the Prince. She has now crossed the threshold, what happens next is unknown, but I don't see her having a happy ending.

The point is the Alliance didn't really do anything, so the Blood Elves decide to become the enemies of the Alliance?

Yeah that makes sense.

It's just another lorelol. Blizz remade the lore to give the Horde pretty elves. That's all.

I don't know if you're just trolling or genuinely can't understand stuff. Let me make you an analogy so you can understand:

1. Country E is being attacked and raped by country S, and needs help.
2. Their natural allies, country H and his friends the A, don't lend aid and instead sends spies for whatever stupid reason.
3. Unexpectedly, country F offers country E assistence, and they accept it because otherwise they might perish.
4. After countries F and E defeat country S, F invites E into his group of friends, the group HR.
5. If war breaks between group HR and group A, it's natural that country E stands by the ones that helped them, not doing so would be betrayal.

All seems pretty natural, with the exception of point 2.



I didn't say it was a decent reason for the events that followed, quite the opposite, which is why I labelled the Alliance actons to send spies as "stupid".

Common sense and history would most say the Alliance should send assistance to the Blood Elves, not only granting an old ally back, but getting a strong foothold on northern Azeroth to fight the Scourge and eventually take back Lordaeron. Unfortunetly that's not what Blizzard decided.
The events that led Elves into the Horde afterwards were pretty acceptable because it could have happened with the Alliance aswell, it just turned out that the ones helping them were Forsaken under Sylvanas (a cunt, by the way) instead of Humans.
I wish it didn't go that way, but it did. Now suck it like everyone else did.

[Combatbutler]

Because there was no suborganization like the Sunreavers back when Kel'thuzad or other mages betrayed them.

In fact there were two others,Sorcerers' League and Mages' Guild, but that is beside the point. What difference does it make? So if a few Silver covenant high elves would betray Dalaran in order to get home to Quel'thalas does that mean their entire order must be purged as well?

[Deleted]

Are we still on this?
Didn't we agree that it was just one Sunreaver who betrayed the neutrality like 20 pages ago?

2, on separate occasions.

[Combatbutler]

Are we still on this?
Didn't we agree that it was just one Sunreaver who betrayed the neutrality like 20 pages ago?

It is like the never ending story ,unless this thread is locked I doubt we will ever get a conclusion.

[Al Gorefiend]

Jaina unknowingly stopped Varian from committing a horrible act to the Alliance - Letting Blood Elves join.

Consider the nobility of the Alliance, it'd be tainted by the inclusion of Blood Elves. Hell, even the Worgen fight with a sense of honor and nobility. Warlord Bloodhilt's journal in Domination Point says it best: Blood Elves are the very embodiment of greed and narcissism. Blood Elves are nothing more than gilded slime, they care for themselves and nobody else. Thrall and Cairne rescue Horde babies during the Cataclysm - including those of the Blood Elves, and where were they? WHERE THE HELL were the Blood Elves while the Horde starved in the Barrens and desperately needed lumber... hiding in their magically-forested land of Quel'Thalas that stayed undented from Deathwing's assault? How long would the Blood Elves be in the Alliance until they backstab a war veteran? How long until they throw a temper tantrum and throw around arcane bolts willy-nilly? How long until they open portals to Stormwind's shores for Blood Elves on the Horde. How long until they do some horrible crime, then play the victim like they have in every expansion prior to this?

"Oh, Kael'Thas made us do it! We want to join this city and be Scryers"
"Velen, I understand we murdered your people and crashed landed your only means of salvation, but look at us! we need our Sunwell!"
"Garrosh made us do it, honest! we didn't MEAN to leave Theramore a smoldering husk. Jaina why don't you like us? racist...."
"But us Sunreavers BELONG here, even though we absolutely decimated the original Kiron Tor leader who Aethas negotiated with in the first place!"



Blood Elves want to act like warmongering dogs? Then stay in the Horde where you belong and eat the dog meat you work for. Even IF Varian trusted you and let you join, what about the other Alliance members?

What do you tell the Dwarves for slaughtering their innocent Explorer's League members equipped with pickaxes and shovels?
What do you tell the Night Elves for the centuries of disdain and attack on Darnassus?
What do you tell the Gnomes for the destruction of countless siege mechanicals and aiding Goblin warfleets?
What do you tell the Draenei? Do I even NEED to explain?
Or the Worgen? Everything they've held dear to them destroyed by your closest allies.

I do not trust Blood Elves, and no other Alliance member worth their salt would. Varian wasn't properly informed of the events of the Burning Crusade during his disappearance obviously. To even TRUST Blood Elves... sheesh.

Suffice to say, not only did I slaughter every Sunreaver in sight, I brought out my old Stormwind banner from the Argent Tournament and planted it on their bodies.

[Deleted]

In fact there were two others,Sorcerers' League and Mages' Guild, but that is beside the point. What difference does it make? So if a few Silver covenant high elves would betray Dalaran in order to get home to Quel'thalas does that mean their entire order must be purged as well?

Fine if one of these groups, Sorcerer's League, Mages' Guild, is or was known for supporting a certain cause (like the Alliance or the Horde) and several members betray the neutrality of Dalaran to help that cause, on multiple occasions, then yeah it would've been perfectly reasonable to kick that group out. However that didn't seem to be the kick. Likewise if the Silver Covenant had done something similar they should've received the same treatment. But they didn't.