Ret and PvP - GC giving us the middle finger.

[Valedus]

That's why I suggested something like giving Denounce to Ret (eitehr from Holy, or in addition to Holy) as a passive. Make any HoPo granting ability place a debuff on the target that prevents them from being able to critically strike for X (5-8) seconds. This is a HUGE benefit to PVP utility, as it helps to 1) reduce tunnel pressure on the ret when being trained, 2) prevent (some) burst healing when trying to score a kill, and 3) add some offensive pressure when bursting.

AND

It has ZERO impact on PVE.

Could even add in an MS effect (since we're the ONE melee class without), and you'd STILL have no net change on PVE rankings/utility.

Make it ONLY active while Inq is up, so it takes some semblance of skill, and there you go.

Do you mean HoPower spending? Because otherwise it'd have a 100% uptime and be pretty ridiculous. =/ But I do still stand by the idea, I like it.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 01:10 PM ----------

DP baseline is terrible, I'm seriously done with RNG, and I'm really looking forward for a whole expansion where I don't take that, if you really like it, take it, sims put all the three talents really close, just don't force it into a class that has finally moved away from the terrible RNG it was plagued with.

Things I would like to change.

Tier 6:
- Bake Sanctified Wrath into Avenging Wrath, make Avenging Wrath a talent in Sanctified Wrath's Place.
- Buff Holy Avenger to make the 3 talents similar in dps/healing output.
- Buff Divine Purpose to bring the proc rate to the levels of AW and HA, or even make it a RPPM which they are using now for enchants, I'd personally love this change.
That would mean we have one DPS cooldown (Guardian) on a 5 minute cooldown, and a possible second, on a 2 or a 3 minute cooldown, which means our burst goes down, and so gives them room to up sustained a good notch (Jesus mfing Christ they could make TV do Holy damage or just a damage buff, what a poor excuse for a finisher. I know Wings is kind of an iconic Paladin Spell, but so were Auras, I don't miss them one bit.

Tier 2:
- Fist of Justice remains as is, replacing Hammer of Justice.
- Repentance now can be cast while moving, has a 10 second cooldown (or none) but it now replaces Blinding Light.
- Burden of Guilt now makes it so every time you melee/judge a target when you have a Seal active, it triggers the slow, not just on Judgments. OR it just remains as is, it's really not a big deal, just some QoL change.


That gives us 3 good choices (imo), but the Holy situation (3 CCs) can't be achieved anymore.
You have a 1 minute CC stun (that can be reduced to 30 seconds) and a 2 minute AoE Blind (that can be reduced to 15-10-5-0, but is single target, and still has a cast time, so while no one would seriously interrupt a retri, they could still interrupt a holy paladin.), or a slow depending on your comp.

I dunno, in my mind these seems like non ridiculous changes, they're not even CC or DPS buffs, my tier6 changes would actually mean less burst and more sustained, more like quality of life changes, maybe I can't be impartial or maybe I can.

Those are all just Holy nerfs and Ret nerfs. Yes, we would gain sustained but we would have no burst compared to other classes anymore. The problem is that HA is on T5. It allows for too much cooldown stacking, and that is what is slamming our sustained. HA should have either been removed or kept Ret, but not increase any damage - just generate Holy Power. Another talent needs to replace it, IMO. Maybe one that buffs the strength of finishers? Gives them a second effect?
something like:
Ret: Your TV now also applies a DoT of Holy Damage for x% of it's original damage.
Prot: Your Shield of the Righteous buff also increases parry(or dodge) by X%. or maybe have it just increase the damage reduction.
Holy: Your WoG does x. I think here you could put the extra health buff that Resto shamans get, maybe? Obviously not stacking.

The problem is that we have too much burst, and lackluster defenses. Hell I could write a huge post myself of what I think needs to be changed, but it'd be a pretty huge shift-around of skills and utilities, too make us look like much more like we did in WOTLK, but obviously more viable with the HoPower system and such.

[Crawdaddy]

i cant even pvp this exp it sucks lol

[Deleted]

Ret paladins are the worst crap i have ever played as and this expansion is extremely altunfriendly atleast for us pvpers..

I dont want to whine or anything because i know i have to live with it. I will propably be lvl 90 on my DK in about 2015.

[Deleted]

Not looking at competitive pvp, but the problems become obvious even in normal bg's.

I just pvp'ed for a few hours two days ago, gear almost full dreadful with starshatter LFR. Being the BG hero that I am, 8/10 bg's i topped KB's whith best k/d ratio, but being WAY behind others on damage done most of the time, mostly dk's. I mean having different strengths is ok, but the disparity was so big, made me think about how much better I could've served my team if I would be playing a friggin dk instead of a ret.

[Cronosmash]

Help out with ideas, analysis, etc here that Blizz might see it. So in the worst case we get a blue post "Screw you Rets, we do not care for you". Or maybe a reasonable explanation.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592802082

[Masternewt]

Another ptr patch. Again nothing. Guess it will be a fun expansion for us.

[Tangra]

Another ptr patch. Again nothing. Guess it will be a fun expansion for us.

Yeah, until I see a major new utility ability, I won't expect much from the rest of the expansion. Something to get us invited into rated BGs would be particularly good. Reducing Blinding Light for Ret to 1 min would be a start.

[jamesbrew]

Retribution
Sword of Light Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 10%. Your spell power is now equal to 50% of your attack power, and you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power. Grants 6% of your maximum mana every 2 sec. Increases the healing done by Word of Glory and Flash of Light by 30%. Paladin - Retribution Spec. by 30% and Flash of Light by 100%. Paladin - Retribution Spec.



is this good?

[sololux]

I just logged off ptr and was getting 70k non crit flash of light with seal of insight and inq up.

[Valedus]

Retribution
Sword of Light Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 10%. Your spell power is now equal to 50% of your attack power, and you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power. Grants 6% of your maximum mana every 2 sec. Increases the healing done by Word of Glory and Flash of Light by 30%. Paladin - Retribution Spec. by 30% and Flash of Light by 100%. Paladin - Retribution Spec.



is this good?

That's an old change.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 06:31 PM ----------

I just logged off ptr and was getting 70k non crit flash of light with seal of insight and inq up.

Was this in a PvP zone after being hit by a player? Otherwise its really only 49k, and using Seal of Insight is flat out bad - takes a GCD and crushes our damage even more than using SoJ. This means in PvP those flash heals are realy only like 46.5k non-crits, which isn't bad, but still requires a lot of mana we don't have.

[Martinbella]

Blinding Light has a 1.8 sec cast for Holy only. We think Holy's CC chains are too strong at the moment, but we don't think Ret or Prot need the nerf.

A good start. Need something unique for Retribution now!

[Sluggo]

Remember in cata(4.2 or 4.3) when they nerfed the crit chance on HoW they buffed sword of light to 20% damage, in mop they put it back to 10% and left HoW without the increased crit chance, i dont see y they dont just tive us the 10% back, afterall that was the reason they gave for nerfing HoW crit %

[Tangra]

Retribution
Sword of Light Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 10%. Your spell power is now equal to 50% of your attack power, and you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power. Grants 6% of your maximum mana every 2 sec. Increases the healing done by Word of Glory and Flash of Light by 30%. Paladin - Retribution Spec. by 30% and Flash of Light by 100%. Paladin - Retribution Spec.



is this good?

Well any buff is good in the short run. But, no, in the grand scheme of things it's complete crap and another blatant display of the fact that the Blizzard design staff puts more thought into what creamer they are going to put in their coffee every morning than they do into Ret. I would call this a band-aid fix, but it's really more of a used band-aid festering with germs.

1) It makes selfless healer absolutely freaking mandatory, no debate about it, which is terrible design.
2) Our retard-strong flash heals will make us more of a tempting target than ever, since a) they will be completely ridiculous when used on our partners, and b) focusing us will make sure we can't cast flash heal.
3) Our already pathetic pressure will now become even worse due to a greater reliance on stopping to cast and having our swing-timer reset.
4) Does absolutely nothing about the fact that Ret is not special in any way utility wise.
5) Does nothing for our non-existent RBG viability.

[Valedus]

Well any buff is good in the short run. But, no, in the grand scheme of things it's complete crap and another blatant display of the fact that the Blizzard design staff puts more thought into what creamer they are going to put in their coffee every morning than they do into Ret. I would call this a band-aid fix, but it's really more of a used band-aid festering with germs.

1) It makes selfless healer absolutely freaking mandatory, no debate about it, which is terrible design.
2) Our retard-strong flash heals will make us more of a tempting target than ever, since a) they will be completely ridiculous when used on our partners, and b) focusing us will make sure we can't cast flash heal.
3) Our already pathetic pressure will now become even worse due to a greater reliance on stopping to cast and having our swing-timer reset.
4) Does absolutely nothing about the fact that Ret is not special in any way utility wise.
5) Does nothing for our non-existent RBG viability.

I actually just posted this in another thread, but it pertains here.
I think something like this would help Ret survivability, and utility.

Retribution Aura
30 yard radius
2 min CD (this can be tweaked, obviously)

The paladin and surrounding allies are protected by the Light, and any spell cast on them silences the user and any physical attack disarms the user for 6 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds.

Any attack against the paladin while this spell is on cooldown lowers the cooldown by 1 second. (2-3 second ICD) Undispellable.

Obviously numbers can be tweaked, but this would be unique, help our utility, and make us less of a constant target. Then they don't need to buff our offhealing. We aren't healers. If you ask me, hybrid offhealing should come from abilities like Vamp Embrace, but whatevs.

[Tangra]

I actually just posted this in another thread, but it pertains here.
I think something like this would help Ret survivability, and utility.

Retribution Aura
30 yard radius
2 min CD (this can be tweaked, obviously)

The paladin and surrounding allies are protected by the Light, and any spell cast on them silences the user and any physical attack disarms the user for 6 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds.

Any attack against the paladin while this spell is on cooldown lowers the cooldown by 1 second. (2-3 second ICD) Undispellable.

Obviously numbers can be tweaked, but this would be unique, help our utility, and make us less of a constant target. Then they don't need to buff our offhealing. We aren't healers. If you ask me, hybrid offhealing should come from abilities like Vamp Embrace, but whatevs.

Yeah, not bad, it's definitely a good starting point, and addresses many issues. Might need to go for damage reflection instead of silence or disarms since monks are already getting Ring of Peace as an AoE disarm/silence. Ret has always needed more reflective spells, since well... it's the whole freaking point of the concept of retribution.

[sololux]

That's an old change.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 06:31 PM ----------



Was this in a PvP zone after being hit by a player? Otherwise its really only 49k, and using Seal of Insight is flat out bad - takes a GCD and crushes our damage even more than using SoJ. This means in PvP those flash heals are realy only like 46.5k non-crits, which isn't bad, but still requires a lot of mana we don't have.

I was just standing in the shrine beating on a dummy. No pvp at all before that. And it was posted on a blue post a long time ago but it didnt go into effect on ptr until today.

[Valedus]

I was just standing in the shrine beating on a dummy. No pvp at all before that. And it was posted on a blue post a long time ago but it didnt go into effect on ptr until today.

So yeah, the heal is actually much lower than that, so it really won't be 70k heals =/

[sololux]

So yeah, the heal is actually much lower than that, so it really won't be 70k heals =/

pvp power works the same outdoors as it does in a bg or arena so the heal would be the same, the only thing that may would affect that would be a mortal strike debuff on you and thats totally random. I just logged of after trying it with seal of insight on and its still hittin me in the mid 60s

[Valedus]

pvp power works the same outdoors as it does in a bg or arena so the heal would be the same, the only thing that may would affect that would be a mortal strike debuff on you and thats totally random. I just logged of after trying it with seal of insight on and its still hittin me in the mid 60s

I take it you have no idea what Battle Fatigue is. Check your general spellbook. When in combat with players, everybody does 30% less healing.

[Psilar]

Retribution
Sword of Light Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 10%. Your spell power is now equal to 50% of your attack power, and you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power. Grants 6% of your maximum mana every 2 sec. Increases the healing done by Word of Glory and Flash of Light by 30%. Paladin - Retribution Spec. by 30% and Flash of Light by 100%. Paladin - Retribution Spec.



is this good?

It's a terrible fuckin idea and it makes me rage knowing that they think it's a good one. Sure it's a buff but when was the last time hard casting a FoL saved anyone? You can only do it 3 times before you're oom anyway. I wan't an ability that will help me prevent damage...you know...those things that every other class has. Fuck Bubble, because you can't do much while it's up.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 05:01 AM ----------

Well any buff is good in the short run. But, no, in the grand scheme of things it's complete crap and another blatant display of the fact that the Blizzard design staff puts more thought into what creamer they are going to put in their coffee every morning than they do into Ret. I would call this a band-aid fix, but it's really more of a used band-aid festering with germs.

1) It makes selfless healer absolutely freaking mandatory, no debate about it, which is terrible design.
2) Our retard-strong flash heals will make us more of a tempting target than ever, since a) they will be completely ridiculous when used on our partners, and b) focusing us will make sure we can't cast flash heal.
3) Our already pathetic pressure will now become even worse due to a greater reliance on stopping to cast and having our swing-timer reset.
4) Does absolutely nothing about the fact that Ret is not special in any way utility wise.
5) Does nothing for our non-existent RBG viability.

LOL so true. I nominate you as the new Ret class designer.