Raid Spec Punishments

[Apolyc]

I am a pretty casual raider, doing LFR on occasion. And i thought of something recently. Out of our three specs, Combat and Subtlety are punished in dungeons and raids (Subtlety more than Combat). Subtlety for obvious reasons of Backstab and not being able to be behind your target. But combat because you cant use Killing Spree at certain times. Using it at the wrong time WILL kill you, and some boss fights you cant use it at all ( like Garalon cause if you use it, CRUSH!) so im curious on what others think of this.

[Deleted]

Unneeded and unnecessary mechanics that needlessly complicate our rotations. Should either be removed or revamped entirely. I especially dislike Backstab... Simply don't understand why the positional requirement is a necessity(Same for the Feral equivalent).

[Coldkil]

Backstab is a pretty oudated concept, but it's iconic for sub.

It's not much about punishment (KS has never worked well tbh), but more about "why i should play X spec?" That's where everything collapses - we do only single target damage and a bunch of aoe which is better covered by other classes. Hence you won't play any other spec other from the one that nets you more damage overall.

Combat at least has always had the cleave niche, but it seems it's not good for Blizzard so the nerf of BF is coming. I agree that BF is way too strong and provides a so big advantage that basically foces every rogue to play combat as soon there are 2+ targets; still, nerfing it to the ground isn't the way since it doesn't promote build diversity, it just makes combat less useful.

We already have single target damage. Combat doing more of it only means that is it's superior, everyone will play combat; if it's not, it will still be the cleave spec (providing that BF will still remain useful).

If you want build diversity, give the cleave to every spec (and similar tool like aoe and burst on-demand). Numbers cannot and don't need to be perfectly equal between specs. But if i can effectively use any spec independently from the fight, then people will use different builds.

It's true that sub can do decent numbers. Still no one plays it, just because assa is a little better and combat is needed for cleave.

[Mormolyce]

That's been the case for absolutely forever, but yes. They usually make it so KS teleports you to the side of the boss or something so Combat is generally okay, they're not so kind with Shadowstep for some reason. Sub is an awkward raiding spec, always will be unless they decide to revamp it.

Also, if Combat can't KS it's a loss but not as bad as Sub not being able to Backstab, not to mention Shad Dance.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 06:42 AM ----------

It's not much about punishment (KS has never worked well tbh), but more about "why i should play X spec?" That's where everything collapses - we do only single target damage and a bunch of aoe which is better covered by other classes. Hence you won't play any other spec other from the one that nets you more damage overall.

Blizzard wants the answer to that to always be "the one I like" not "the one that cleaves best because this is a cleave fight" etc. Of course the specs aren't balanced close enough at the moment to meet that design goal.

[Apolyc]

Lets try to turn conversation to Killing Spree specifically. How there are times when the damage it provides is needed, but using it at the wrong time will position you in such a way that you die.

[Deleted]

Backstab is not an "outdated mechanic". Its not as though new rogues born in the 21st century have decided that stabbing people in the chest is actually better. Tired of seeing rogues write that, its flavour of our class and I for one welcome it.

Now, a lack of "reward" bonus damage foe successfully landing attacks in the foe's back, particularly in PvP, is in my opinion, a fair concept as the trade off to its limitations.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 08:25 AM ----------

Re: Killing Spree, it can be used on Garalon's legs so isnt totally punished there.

Overall it is a decent ability for controlled burst and I actually really like it, particularly as something that can be used when low on energy. Agree it can be risky at times, so its up to you to recognise opportunities

[Pikapika]

I find that backstab whining gets really blown out of proportion, I've never had trouble landing positional attacks (even in PvP) on my rogue or my feral, barring obvious exceptions like bosses that literally do not have a back to stab.
As for Killing Spree, even on fights where bad uses of it can get you killed, there's almost always still places to use it, not to mention you can even use it with danger present if you're aware of how the teleporting works (all jumps are based on the original cast position, it's not like chain lightning or something).

[Feindy]

backstab should hit harder at least

[D3athsting]

badstab hits like a wet noodle, autoattack is king, this is on of the reasons of rogue being so bad atm

[Coldkil]

barring obvious exceptions like bosses that literally do not have a back to stab.

That's the point in positional requirements. You take out a spec only for a fight; it's not like combat which is "here i can use cleave at best, so it's favorite" it's like "i cannot use my main ability so my favorite spec isn't viable".

Anyway, i agree totally that whining over BS is way out of bounds - there are bigger problems with the class at the moment.

[Knuckle]

The whole attack from behind thing should only matter in PvP, they should just change it so raid bosses can be backstabbed from the front.

I know it doesn't make sense, but honestly rogue's aren't even rogues in PvE and we have to accept that. We're leather warriors that use daggers and attack fast, so what if the skill says backstab but you can hit the gigantic monster that's 50x your size anywhere you want with it.

[anabolicz]

Play warrior instead it is a plate geared rogue with retarded dmg and stunlock. problem solved. U dont even need to stealth since ur unkillable woohoo

[Koji2k11]

they should just change it so raid bosses can be backstabbed from the front. .

wonder how this would look like backstabbing someone from the front

[jtstormrage]

I would absolutely love to see the positional requirements of Backstab and Ambush removed. It is a major disadvantage of Sub in PvE and PvP and it is simply not fair that other classes can continue to attack while being kited, or when a boss is moved or turned.

You can still AIM to use them from behind, but they should still have a chance to land if a boss or player turns.

That would be much better.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 02:59 PM ----------

wonder how this would look like backstabbing someone from the front

I imagine the ability would have its name changed to "Stab" or something like that :P

[Koji2k11]

i wouldnt mind backstabbing soneone but some boss mechanics just dont allow you to stay behind the boss like spirit kings the cleave dude

[slime]

Good rogue flavor gone bad.

[Verain]

Backstab is not an "outdated mechanic". Its not as though new rogues born in the 21st century have decided that stabbing people in the chest is actually better. Tired of seeing rogues write that, its flavour of our class and I for one welcome it.

Now, a lack of "reward" bonus damage foe successfully landing attacks in the foe's back, particularly in PvP, is in my opinion, a fair concept as the trade off to its limitations.

That is WHY it is outdated. Unless sub is going to get compensation, it's dumb. And under the CURRENT GUIDELINES FOR CLASS DESIGN, it clearly can NOT be rewarded. Hence, it is outdated- the idea of "you have a positional requirement and as compensation gain more dps when able to capitalize on it" got neutered by "everyone's single target damage needs to be the same", so now it is "you have a positional requirement".

Outdated. Good concept, wrong game.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 05:01 PM ----------

Here's an example: Sub needs to outdamage Muti to be worth playing. Not comparable, more. Backstab and Shadowdance -> Ambush are big parts of why.

[Deleted]

That is WHY it is outdated. Unless sub is going to get compensation, it's dumb. And under the CURRENT GUIDELINES FOR CLASS DESIGN, it clearly can NOT be rewarded. Hence, it is outdated- the idea of "you have a positional requirement and as compensation gain more dps when able to capitalize on it" got neutered by "everyone's single target damage needs to be the same", so now it is "you have a positional requirement".

Outdated. Good concept, wrong game.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 05:01 PM ----------

Here's an example: Sub needs to outdamage Muti to be worth playing. Not comparable, more. Backstab and Shadowdance -> Ambush are big parts of why.

I get what you're saying, but outdated is the wrong word. I mean, backstab used to hit very hard in the OLDEN DAYS. As Sub in Cata, it was the top portion of your damage. This is GOOD. You are REWARDED for squeezing in more backstabs.
Compared to today - the NEW version, (read: not outdated) it's uninspiring. Basically, crit chance and crit modifiers make sense for it. Yes burst will have the capacity to be higher, yes there are ways to address that.

[Deleted]

I get what you're saying, but outdated is the wrong word. I mean, backstab used to hit very hard in the OLDEN DAYS. As Sub in Cata, it was the top portion of your damage. This is GOOD. You are REWARDED for squeezing in more backstabs.
Compared to today - the NEW version, (read: not outdated) it's uninspiring. Basically, crit chance and crit modifiers make sense for it. Yes burst will have the capacity to be higher, yes there are ways to address that.

You didn't read well enough into Verain's post, it carefully explained exactly why it is outdated.
It is, literally, a mechanic put in place during "the olden days" - installed to account for the fact that Backstab, at the time, would hit like a truck. The high damage only came at the cost of user-friendliness, but the immense output of Backstab was totally worth the inconvenience.

None of that applies any longer. The game, in its current form, is designed with balance in mind. "Everyone should be equal and no one should be left behind." With that in mind, mandatory punishments that give way to increased rewards simply do not work any more. That kind of design is simply outdated.

For emphasis, let me give you some numbers; For arguments sake, let's say the dps-target for all classes/specs is 100k sustained dps.
- A Mage in any spec would deal around 100k
- An Assassination or a Combat rogue would deal around 100k
- A Balance Druid would deal around 100k

Now, here's the punishment into reward aspect put into practice...
- A Feral druid or a Sub rogue would/should deal 120k dps

We have a situation in which 2 specs, due to the punishment/reward concept, have to be vastly superior to all the other specs that aren't designed around a similar concept, simply by design. In other words; In any fight in which a Sub rogue or a Feral druid can stay behind their target indefinitely, they should be topping the meters.

The above simply cannot coexist with the current design policies, and the punishment/reward concept(which Backstab is a result of) no longer serves a purpose. The band-aiding of the concept has turned it from "punishment->reward" into "punishment->punishment". There's no longer any benefit to effectively Backstabbing a target, there's only the drawback of NOT doing it.

That's why Backstab, as a mechanic,is outdated, why it no longer serves a purpose, and why it should either be removed or reinvented.

[D3athsting]

I vote for Incineration as lead system designer!!
here's a tweet GC

If you look at a fight like Feng, Sub isn't far behind

So he's assuming i should pick a punishing spec only to do decent dmg on patchwerk 4.0 and doing crap damage on all other encounters where i can't sit on the back of the boss and simply do my rotation ? (e.g. sha of fear, hemo spam ftw)