Bring back progression.

[Jarion]

I posted this on the wow forums, but thought I'd bring it here too for even more discussion.

One of the most compelling aspects of WoW was progression. You worked your way through 5 mans and raids in a linear and ordered way that made sense and felt rewarding. It brought a lot to the game in terms of personal reward and friendly competition amongst guilds. As the game exists right now, that element does not exist. No requirement to enter raids and mix and match hard modes all but eliminated progression. I would love to see this element brought back to our adventures in Azeroth and I have some suggestions as to how it might be accomplished.

First, I am not asking for the return of attunements as they were. My idea is MUCH simpler than the crazy attunement chain of BC. In order to enter the entry level raid of an expansion on normal mode, a player must have beaten every max level 5 man end boss on normal. Want to progress to the next raid tier? You must have killed every end boss of the previous tier and so on.

If you’d like to try hard modes, then kill all the end bosses of the max level 5 mans in hard mode. If you kill a raid boss on hard mode then you are locked to hard mode. No switching back and forth. Want to raid the next tier on hard mode? Kill all the previous tier’s bosses on hard mode.

These policies would be simple and hopefully easy to implement. If you are of the opinion that they are STILL to restrictive, then link them to guild achievements. A raiding tier unlocks for a guild once the guild has the achievements for killing bosses as mentioned above.

These ideas are simple and straightforward, but they would bring back the element of progression to the game. They aren’t brutally limiting to guilds trying to recruit new members, but they would allow for a sense of real progress to return to our gameplay.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

It's a major barrier to entry.

"LF raiding guild! Need help clearing the required old content first."
"GTFO! We only want raiders who are attuned."


You don't call it attunement, but it's attunement in a new form.

[bcbully]

Without progression, there is nothing to work for. Fast forward to the end philosophy is hurting WoW as much as anything else.

[Jarion]

I think major barrier is a little harsh. It would be one clear. People might even be able to do it via the raid finder. OR they could go with the guild option and then you wouldn't have to do it at all.

If you are of the opinion that they are STILL to restrictive, then link them to guild achievements. A raiding tier unlocks for a guild once the guild has the achievements for killing bosses as mentioned above.

[bcbully]

It's a major barrier to entry.

"LF raiding guild! Need help clearing the required old content first."
"GTFO! We only want raiders who are attuned."


You don't call it attunement, but it's attunement in a new form.

OP said "I'm not asking for attunements" someone didn't read :P

[Deluhathol]

Although I have to say that I miss the progression and the feeling that you actually archieved something when killing a boss in classic or TBC, I do not agree with the system you propose.

I believe it won't work, firstly Blizzard implements new 5 man with content patches, what will happen then? Will they be a requirement aswell? Also, forcing a guild to continue doing hardmodes if they kill a boss in heroic it's not a good idea. Imagine a 25 man guild in Firelands with this system that has only Shannox on farm and is working towards other bosses, if they kill Shannox heroic and fail to progress that mean they can't kill 6 more bosses in normal to get upgrades for their raiders in order to have an easier job on said heroic modes. That will not only halt progression but it will make raider get bored more easily.

Best system yet for hardmodes it's Ulduar in my opinion. One lockout. Triggered hardmodes. Everybody wins.

Furthermore, speaking for my self aswell, let's say we are in the final patch of an expansion and I level a new character to max level, then what? I have to kill all the end bosses in all previous expansion tiers to raid current content with my alt? Nah I think I will just pass, and it's likely most people will do the same, so that will cripple the amount of pug groups around because at least in my server most pug group have a lot of players that just want to raid with an alt on a free night.

[Krozard]

This wouldn't be a bad idea if this was account-wide, not just realm or faction, but fully account-wide.
Also one problem would be the randomness of LFD for clearing every boss of every 5-man. Grim Batol, for example, I can't even remember the last time I joined a run for that wasn't at least 2 bosses in.
And multiple characters/alts would an absolute nightmare if these weren't account-wide.

OP said "I'm not asking for attunements" someone didn't read :P

Actually he OP said they weren't asking for attunements *as they were*.

[Deleted]

If you’d like to try hard modes, then kill all the end bosses of the max level 5 mans in hard mode. If you kill a boss on hard mode then you are locked to hard mode. No switching back and forth.

This would make things alot harder for the top guilds racing for world/realm firsts. Do we try for progression and get locked to 1/8 because we found out the 2nd boss is much harder or play it safe and farm for a few more weeks until we are comfortable with the gear that we have accumilated. It starts to bring the the factor of luck into the race much more than it is now.

Also, although he didn't ask for attunements as they were, forcing someone to go back through old content to catch up with the rest is not only an attunement in itself but scares people away from trying to start raiding.

I see quite the elitist view here and I have similar thoughts sometimes but you have to think of it from the other side, unless you start raiding from the beginning of an expansion, it makes it alot harder to catch up with current content. Want to try Shannox heroic? well you're going to have to kill Sinestra first, I don't think that's the right way to go about things.

Also from a lore standpoint, although the raids such as BoT and BWD are still available, the bosses in them are deceased and the main focus now is to bring down Ragnaros, then Deathwing. Someone coming into the game would see this in the Hyjal dailies and likely assume Firelands being a main part of the current patch.

[Kakuzo]

Sadly as someone stated, this is attunements aswell :P How did you get attuned to Hyjal again? By killing Lady Vashj and Quel thas Sunstrider. And they were? The last bosses of the previous tier.
But its also worse, cause forcing you in one spot would also make it so that if you didn't get your loot from the previous tier, well shame for you! cause no one would want you in the one you managed to advance to.
Biggest problem of them all would also be splitting up the playerbase. Imagine you wanting to play with your friend, he / you have to either progress together, or be lucky and both advance to that point. Or YOU have to WAIT for him to reach your tier.
Also "LFM heroic 5mans" that would mean only people that are on the heroic five man part would be able to join, not even the ones who have cleared it would be able to

[Phuongvi]

Actually, they should put more effort to make PvE more attractive since WoW endgame is now pvp

1 day of FL and the rest PvP

[GrieverXIII]

Raiding guilds have an hard time recruiting non-retards as it is already. While i liked the concept of attunements, and i would like to see them back in some form, ''clear 6months behind raid content'' wasn't a good way to do them. Implementing them in current solo (quests) or 5man content would be actually better.

[Narveid]

Honestly, the coolest thing in my opinion is just if they add an attunement quest for every raid tier, you do it once and account is attuned, and after that raid tier is gone, or alternatively two raid tiers has passed, the quest is made optional. I used to love the epic questlines in the past, Karazhan, TK, BT ..

[Azivalla]

Your idea is 5 man -> Normal -> 5 man Heroic -> Heroic

You do realize that Normal raids are harder than 5 man Heroics, yes? This makes no sense.

[Jarion]

Imagine a 25 man guild in Firelands with this system that has only Shannox on farm and is working towards other bosses, if they kill Shannox heroic and fail to progress that mean they can't kill 6 more bosses in normal to get upgrades for there raiders in order to have an easier job on said heroic modes. That will not only halt progression but it will make raider get bored more easily.

I guess that guild faces a choice then, don't they? Normal or heroic. Tough choice, eh? Tough choices make for interesting gameplay. If they want to do heroic then they can do it like it was meant to be done, one boss at a time. If that pace isn't satisfying for them, then they can try normal mode next week. Chery picking the easiest heroic bosses isn't fun or compelling gameplay in my opinion.

Furthermore, speaking for my self aswell, let's say we are in the final patch of na expansion and I level a new character to max level, then what? I have to kill all the end bosses in all previous expansion tiers to raid current content with my alt? Nah I think I will just pass, and it's likely most people will do the same, so that will cripple the amount of pug groups around because at least in my server most pug group have a lot of players that just want to raid with an alt on a free night.

Yes. If clearing an instance one on your alt is too much of a chore then maybe you don't really enjoy this game as much as you think you do.

Or if you feel that is too restrictive there is the guild option I outlined as well.

[bcbully]

This wouldn't be a bad idea if this was account-wide, not just realm or faction, but fully account-wide.
Also one problem would be the randomness of LFD for clearing every boss of every 5-man. Grim Batol, for example, I can't even remember the last time I joined a run for that wasn't at least 2 bosses in.
And multiple characters/alts would an absolute nightmare if these weren't account-wide.


Actually he OP said they weren't asking for attunements *as they were*.

... >.> so

[Deleted]

Chery picking the easiest heroic bosses isn't fun or compelling gameplay in my opinion.

In your opinion. At least you had the decency to add that to your sentence. Unfortunately for you though, your viewpoint is a minority compared to the views of others.

[Jarion]

Your idea is 5 man -> Normal -> 5 man Heroic -> Heroic

You do realize that Normal raids are harder than 5 man Heroics, yes? This makes no sense.

Maybe they shouldn't be? You do get epics in them after all. And I'm actually proposing

5 man normal > normal

OR

5 man heroic > heroic

I think they need to be more separate rather than on the same progression path. Why should you have to clear the raid twice, once on normal and then again on hard?

[Azivalla]

Maybe they shouldn't be? You do get epics in them after all. And I'm actually proposing

5 man normal > normal

OR

5 man heroic > heroic

I think they need to be more separate rather than on the same progression path. Why should you have to clear the raid twice,one on normal and then on hard?

That would mean one 5 man group can do things better than a 10 man group. Those numbers are entirely wrong.

[siegemaster]

Barriers like this will always act as more of a stifle to those you don't require it - IE top end raiders/guilds
There just needs to be something to promote raiding old content - each patch brings a quest similar to the crappy thrall quest where you get a piece or two of ilvl equivalent or slightly lower - but the quest requires older raids. So as to say instead of saving thrall from all the crappy elements you get an option to bring a scale off of chimeron and nefarion and an eyeball from chogall or something that you can turn. If you get these pieces you get a 372 cloak and and neck piece, if you only do the quest you get the regular 365 piece.

[Deleted]

Do you have evidence to support this statement, or is it your opinion as well?

Go ask a good handful of players, not just ones on forums that are agreeing with you and you'll find that they'll probably dislike your idea. It's a nice idea so no need for the aggression but would need a lot of fine tuning and would ultimately drive alot of people away from trying to get into raiding.