So warriors still get 3%

[Nairobi]

You're missing the point. When you counter a classes or a setup that is very strong, that makes you very strong as well. The last season of Cataclysm we saw a lot of triple DPS setups. You know why? Because it countered the best setup in the game, RLS. Nothing in the current season would mean that different triple DPS setups wouldn't work. But due to Shadow priests being so strong, and therefore common, playing triple DPS isn't as viable. So no, rets don't need buffs to be viable.

I....what? IF (and this is a big if) Ret was a true counter to ANYTHING (which, at this point, it really is not), why would that make the class better purely by nature of existance? That's like saying that you've got a Porsche and a Prius, and you're trying to get from point A to point B. Porsche can get from A to B very quickly, but the Prius can get there more economically, ergo it should be a "counter" to the Porsche. But, in this season of BURST, economy means fuck-all. Ret being in a "good place" means that it's the Prius in this example. You can't race against a Porsche in a Prius and expect to compete.

Also, comparing hard counters from previous seasons/expansions means a whole lot of nothing in the present. Because disc USED to be good, clearly means it's still uber viable, right?

And, you seem to contradict yourself quite a few times in trying to work in the issue about Spriest representation....You say ret WAS good, because it could play tripDPS vs RLS in a previous expansion (what bearing that has now, I still don't understand), but that this season tripDPS isn't as viable. Ok. But it's not viable because of Spriests? Hmm. Well, if it's not viable, and it was where ret worked, then it means ipso facto that ret isn't viable. Yet you assert ret needs no buffs to BE viable.

Ret dmg is fine (high burst on a long cooldown, shit sustained). Ret CC is mediocre (don't need to spell that out, but having to CHOOSE between a stun, hard CC or snare in this day of homogeniety is ludicrous). Ret survival is piss-poor. Balanced around a dispellable 8-sec immunity that nerfs damage on a 5 min CD is archaic. Nerfing our only other form of survival (self healing) really gutted the spec. If anything needs fixing, it would be defenses and we'd actually be in a "good spot".

[Nigeldruid]

That honestly made no sense. You are seriously trying to say that because Shadow priests are strong that makes Ret viable?...

I don't know if you have tried to play a Ret paladin in arena this season but it isn't even close to being good. And Rbgs won't even think about taking a Ret paladin because they are so bad.

That's not what I'm trying to say. My point is that since the state of a class or a setup isn't only based on the class itself, but also on the state of the classes that counter it, or that it counters.

I therefore came with an example of how triple DPS went from being gladiator viable last season to being very little represented this season, even though the changes would actually suggest the opposite. How could that be? It is quite simple. Shadow Priests. SPs are one of the best classes in the game at the moment in PvP, and they counter triple DPS combs. Therefore triple DPS combs aren't viable now. But they were viable last season, because they countered RLS, which was one of the best and most popular setups.

This season Ret paladins are playing against warriors and mages, which are both strong and both do very well against ret paladins. Therefore rets are underdogs at the moment.

However, next season, Rogues and Monks are getting buffed. This means that all classes countered by these are becoming weaker, and all classes countering these two become stronger - regardless of personal buffs. And rets counter rogues pretty well..

[Johnmatrix]

Rets will be in a much better spot next season. Rets counter rogues really well, and possibly also Monks. On PTR atm people are reporting Ret damage being out of control due to scaling.

Yeah, no. Rets do not counter rogues. Rets we're good against rogues because they had even longer cooldowns than ret. With preparation ret is left again to be the only spec with ridiculously long cds and bad survival. Ret has never countered monks and monks will almost hard counter ret with Ring of Peace. One reason for some sort of counter to these specs in 1v1 was also Burden of guilt but that crap can't be used in arena and 1v1 matter shit. However rets get terribly countered by spriest and all comps that can stop burst every 3 minutes (Every comp) and comps that just train trough ret and break bubble almost instantly (junglecleave with priest/kfc/kitty/godcomp/tsg etc. See what im talking about? Almost every comp playing 3s atm at serious ratings)

Ret is not even remotely the best scaling spec in the game and there is no better gear to scale with in PTR than there is in live. However the damage of rogues went up, the damage of warriors went up even and best of all the damage of monk in PTR is ridiculous.

[nyc81991]

That's not what I'm trying to say. My point is that since the state of a class or a setup isn't only based on the class itself, but also on the state of the classes that counter it, or that it counters.

I therefore came with an example of how triple DPS went from being gladiator viable last season to being very little represented this season, even though the changes would actually suggest the opposite. How could that be? It is quite simple. Shadow Priests. SPs are one of the best classes in the game at the moment in PvP, and they counter triple DPS combs. Therefore triple DPS combs aren't viable now. But they were viable last season, because they countered RLS, which was one of the best and most popular setups.

This season Ret paladins are playing against warriors and mages, which are both strong and both do very well against ret paladins. Therefore rets are underdogs at the moment.

However, next season, Rogues and Monks are getting buffed. This means that all classes countered by these are becoming weaker, and all classes countering these two become stronger - regardless of personal buffs. And rets counter rogues pretty well..

Ret doesn't really counter anything very well. I can tell you haven't played Ret in arena this season because you don't seem to understand why Ret is not viable and won't be unless there are changes to survival. The poster above you put it best.

[dacoolist]

I payed off GC so he wouldn't nerf my class this xpac.

TY GC, xoxo

[Fuzzski]

If you can tell me one class a ret can counter. I will tattoo Fancy that just over my derrière. No class gives up so much to heal its self and still dies.

[Johnmatrix]

Ret doesn't really counter anything very well. I can tell you haven't played Ret in arena this season because you don't seem to understand why Ret is not viable and won't be unless there are changes to survival. The poster above you put it best.

This is the sad fact of rets. Ret brings no utility that counters other specs well. Ret also has no utility that holy can not bring to the group.

Ret has no spot in this game at the moment. Not in arena and even less in RBG. In addition to survival buff, ret needs a small toolkit upgrade. Something that you crave to take ret for arena or RBG team. Ret is pretty much the only hybrid that brings nothing to the table compared to the healer spec of the class. The talent tree for mop took the last bits of uniqueness (repentance, holy avenger, sacred shield, selfless healer) and gave it to holy.

[Deleted]

I dont get it, why do ppl even bother to QQ on the forums? just go join the herd ... if you don`t suck ofcourse, then it shouldnt be a problem.

Infracted. Please do not post with the intention to troll. ~Fhi

[dacoolist]

If you can tell me one class a ret can counter. I will tattoo Fancy that just over my derrière. No class gives up so much to heal its self and still dies.

Rogue, or Fury Warrior <44

[Syh]

Warrior defensive stance is being nerfed by 10%, the cooldown of shockwave was doubled, heroic leap glyph doesnt increase the dmg done anymore. Not to mention all the past nerfs, gag order, tfb, avatar, so yeah warriors are being rolled back to cata status, they will be completely useless..

They're not going to be completely useless. That's an over exaggeration. They'll still be good.

Also, they should be fixing Blitz so it works with Warbringer as well.

[Fuzzski]

Rogue, or Fury Warrior <44

Umm no not even close Furry with Sw will only heal for more then arms and Furry. Any good rogue will just start the fight over soon as you get on top and pull off the win. When you go into a fight as a paladin go kinda gotta go hard or go home.

[Malthanis]

There's really no place for a QQ thread here.

Closing.