Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Deleted]

then you probably shouldnt be in a relationship.

More like "if you lie to me about using contraceptives and get pregnant, I will not support you".

Huh? You don't bring them out just before the act and put it on?

You can poke holes in the condom while in its package. It's not like the male keeps them in some secure safe and only ever allows himself to touch them. Maybe he should though. I think the mental barrier to start poking holes in condoms is significantly higher though than "forgetting" to take your contraceptives.

[Grizzly Willy]

More like "if you lie to me about using contraceptives and get pregnant, I will not support you".

I've said this before: we need contracts to lay out agreements so these issues can be sorted out beforehand. Nothing better than slapping your partner with an agreement to sign before getting in bed with them.

[Difuid]

Seriously, here is the situation that is being debated:

There is our imaginary couple John and Tifany, John does not want a child and do everything he can to prevent it bar the operation, but Tifany during one of the drunken parties gets herself pregrant with a baby from, let's call him Jack, who does not take any precautions. Now Tifany lies to John that their precautions have failed and they are going to have a child.

What can or should John do after being told the truth?

Nowhere it is indicated that John is saint, both of them have cheated and lied to each other to be fair, still John did not made any babies for other women.

[Deleted]

Seriously, here is the situation that is being debated:

There is our imaginary couple John and Tifany, John does not want a child and do everything he can to prevent it bar the operation, but Tifany during one of the drunken parties gets herself pregrant with a baby from, let's call him Jack, who does not take any precautions. Now Tifany lies to John that their precautions have failed and they are going to have a child.

What can or should John do after being told the truth?

Nowhere it is indicated that John is saint, both of them have cheated and lied to each other to be fair, still John did not made any babies for other women.

Abortion? A baby should not be brought into the world with a couple that has this much conflicts.

[Deleted]

I've said this before: we need contracts to lay out agreements so these issues can be sorted out beforehand. Nothing better than slapping your partner with an agreement to sign before getting in bed with them.

I don't think anyone but lawyers and accountants could get turned on by that.

"ohh yeah.... look at the curves on that section sign § .... and the dotted line... mmmm sign it baby, I know you want to..."

[Shoekron]

Women lie to get what they want. Good job, you've discovered one of the keys to the world. What, precisely, are you going to *do* about it?

I think you'll do absolutely nothing.

[DisposableHero]

Nowhere it is indicated that John is saint, both of them have cheated and lied to each other to be fair, still John did not made any babies for other women.

How much money are John's lies costing Tifany?
How much money are Tifany's lies going to cost John?

The answer to those questions is what makes the results of this survey particularly disturbing.

[starlord]

its always so nice to see how the focus on money and evil lying women glosses over the purpose of child support.

[Deleted]

its always so nice to see how the focus on money and evil lying women glosses over the purpose of child support.

She doesn't have to keep the child (abortion/adoption). If she decides to keep it but fails financially, there is always taxpayer support to keep the kid alive.

I love it how you take this so personally darenyon.

[starlord]

She doesn't have to keep the child (abortion/adoption). If she decides to keep it but fails financially, there is always taxpayer support to keep the kid alive.

I love it how you take this so personally darenyon.

its not "to keep it alive" its to make up for the abandonment of one parents contribution to its quality of life.

[Deleted]

its not "to keep it alive" its to make up for the abandonment of one parents contribution to its quality of life.

The woman gets to choose whether to have a kid with only her as a parent or not have a kid at all. Her choice.

The father doesn't just abandon the kid, he would never be the legal father anyhow. But yeah, if you decide to GTFO while raising the kid, then you should pay the mother. Because then you would be the legal father. Then it would be too late to start having regrets. When the woman can no longer choose and when the kid is already in this world.

[Laize]

But at what point should a man be able to opt out? Before? After? During?

He should probably have a final answer within a few weeks of finding out that there either is or will be a child.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 10:41 PM ----------

How would someone sabotage a mans protection? O_o

Really? You've never heard of anyone poking holes in condoms? Or other, more disgusting things?

[starlord]

The woman gets to choose whether to have a kid with only her as a parent or not have a kid at all. Her choice.

The father doesn't just abandon the kid, he would never be the legal father anyhow. But yeah, if you decide to GTFO while raising the kid, then you should pay the mother. Because then you would be the legal father. Then it would be too late to start having regrets. When the woman can no longer choose and when the kid is already in this world.

ah yes, its all very cut and dried. no moral dilemmas, no messy surgeries. just "see ya!".

meanwhile that doesnt address the actual issue of the kid having one parent when the other is perfectly capable of helping support it.

[Laize]

ah yes, its all very cut and dried. no moral dilemmas, no messy surgeries. just "see ya!".

meanwhile that doesnt address the actual issue of the kid having one parent when the other is perfectly capable of helping support it.

You seem to think the child's rights supersede that of the parent's. I disagree. Provided the mother is given ample notice that the father wants no part of it, she will be perfectly capable of making a fully informed decision on whether to bring the child to term or abort it.

[Deleted]

ah yes, its all very cut and dried. no moral dilemmas, no messy surgeries. just "see ya!".

meanwhile that doesnt address the actual issue of the kid having one parent when the other is perfectly capable of helping support it.

The man would've chosen beforehand that he doesn't want children. So when the woman decides to lie to the man she knowns perfectly well that she's probably not going to have a father for the kid. This would probably reduce the amount of these sorts of deceptions drastically anyway.

meanwhile that doesnt address the actual issue of the kid having one parent when the other is perfectly capable of helping support it.

Yes it does. If the woman thinks she can't support the kid she has an abortion or gives it up for adoption. Or you know, doesn't lie about taking contraceptives.

You can't just put the man on the hook for the kid which he was tricked into having.

[starlord]

You seem to think the child's rights supersede that of the parents. I disagree.

i guess we should get rid of all those pesky laws like "cant abuse your child, must provide it adequate care, etc".

its not sexism that women carry children and that children have rights that supersede their parents to matter how much you try to make it so.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 02:57 PM ----------

You can't just put the man on the hook for the kid which he was tricked into having.

but you can "just make women get abortions" if the father gets cold feet.

[Xanjori]

its always so nice to see how the focus on money and evil lying women glosses over the purpose of child support.

Im sorry, but if a woman cheats and as a result gets pregnant, why should the man care? The man she was with took all the neccassary precautions to make sure that her QoL wouldnt be affected, if she cheats and that goes out the window its her fault and she should deal with the consequences, as well as the actual father. Not some poor bloke that got cheated on.

[Jackmoves]

Babies are not a result of a woman not going through abortion, they are a result of a man and woman having sex, hopefully both parties are aware of the possibility of accidents, so if they don't want to risk it then they are free to use their hands.

Child support is just a way of taking personal responsibility for ones actions, you should be fully aware of the possibility of a potiential pregnancy when you are an adult. Going through an abortion can be just as much of a mind fuck for some women as it is for a man to become a father "against" his will.

Getting lied to is a different thing though.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Huh? You don't bring them out just before the act and put it on?

No, it didn't happen to me. She said they (as a couple) kept condoms in a drawer by their bed. I suppose no, her boyfriend did not keep them under lock and key.

then you probably shouldnt be in a relationship.

I'm not allowed to be in a relationship if I hypothetically don't want kids? Who are you to tell me that?

its always so nice to see how the focus on money and evil lying women glosses over the purpose of child support.

Its always so nice to see how you can "gloss over" any type of liberty a male should/does have when it comes to kids.

ah yes, its all very cut and dried. no moral dilemmas, no messy surgeries. just "see ya!".

meanwhile that doesnt address the actual issue of the kid having one parent when the other is perfectly capable of helping support it.

Its not always as cut and dry as "perfectly capable." It seems you are okay with taking one persons liberties, while giving them to another. I'm sure you are 100% in favor of abortion, in this case, if you are, why can't the male OPT OUT if the female is dead set on keeping and raising the child? Why can't the male have a choice?

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 06:03 PM ----------

Babies are not a result of a woman not going through abortion, they are a result of a man and woman having sex, hopefully both parties are aware of the possibility of accidents, so if they don't want to risk it then they are free to use their hands.

Child support is just a way of taking personal responsibility for ones actions, you should be fully aware of the possibility of a potiential pregnancy when you are an adult. Going through an abortion can be just as much of a mind fuck for some women as it is for a man to become a father "against" his will.

Getting lied to is a different thing though.

I agree, but if you make laws that apply to women wanting choices, men should have the same choice. Pro-choices always say it should be the womans choice to choose to keep the baby since it will change her life, again, men should have a choice since this will indeed change his life as well.

It should be one or the other. Both can "opt out" or neither, lest we take one set of freedoms from one gender and give it to another.

[starlord]

Im sorry, but if a woman cheats and as a result gets pregnant, why should the man care? The man she was with took all the neccassary precautions to make sure that her QoL wouldnt be affected, if she cheats and that goes out the window its her fault and she should deal with the consequences, as well as the actual father. Not some poor bloke that got cheated on.

its not hers thats the problem, its the kids. who did nothing wrong. lets look at another scenario: hospital sent home the wrong baby. should the child be tossed out on the street because its "not theirs"?