Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[LilSaihah]

females experience this too, so im not sure what you're getting at.

we should hold people accountable for their actions and, barring an insanity plea, not their motivations

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

females experience this too, so im not sure what you're getting at.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 11:49 PM ----------

i didnt say it wasnt. its hardly "the same choice" as simply walking out the door, no mess no fuss,though.

Whether you are driven by hormones, or just liking babies in general, this does not mean anything at all. That choice should not take away my liberties. Having hormones DOES NOT mean you would be forced into anything.

[starlord]

we should hold people accountable for their actions and, barring an insanity plea, not their motivations

thats right.

[TheBeardedOne]

no. thats not what bodily autonomy is. just because i feel bad doesnt mean someone violated my body.
he owes the child, not the mother. children have rights to be supported for 18 years.
theyre not forcing it, theyre choosing not to negate it. important distinction. having sex means you take responsibility for the results, whatever they may be.

only if you dont understand how it works. mothers and fathers are both "forced" to care for their children. the only difference is a child is formed inside the mother.

no. it puts the entire responsibility on the mother to either abort, give up her child (she may not be able to do either because of her natural instincts), or raise it without help. i dont see how thats equal.

Stress can play a part in problems such as headaches, high blood pressure, heart problems, diabetes, skin conditions, asthma, arthritis, depression, and anxiety. Yeah stress just makes you feel bad right, you got to be kidding me, bodily autonomy may not be the right term by why in hell should it be able to force 18 years of added stress onto another? You cannot deny that stress has health impacts on a person. Its not just feeling bad.

Your second point, they are indeed forcing not negating, they are making a choice for another person possibly against their will. Having sex means men are forced to take the responsibility, women can choose not to.

Your third point, yes everyone knows the child is formed in the mother, yes mothers and fathers are forced and this is what is wrong, no one should be forced to do anything. once again the following options forces neither party to be forced to do anything, in this solution everyone gets a choice, no ones bodliy autonomy is denied and a porper outcome always reached.
1-both man and woman want to keep it- both are happy
2- man wants to keep it but woman doesn't- the WOMAN decides on whether or not to carry it or have an abortion, if she carries it she has no financial responsibility
3- man doesn't want it but woman does- man has limited period to opt out, woman has all the FACTS in ample time and is able to make whatever decision she wants

The woman still can do whatever she wants in this, but it seems you think women have the right to control men and force their choice on them. The solution I gave does not allow a man to force his choice onto and woman and vice a versa.

You are basically saying men should be treated as second class citizens and should be able to be controlled by women through their decisions.

[starlord]

Whether you are driven by hormones, or just liking babies in general, this does not mean anything at all. That choice should not take away my liberties. Having hormones DOES NOT mean you would be forced into anything.

no, having hormones doesnt. a woman is still forced to choose between 1)killing child 2) giving it away 3)struggling teice as hard to raise it and it not having a father.
your suggestion puts the mans choice to just make her suffer all the responsibility.

when you (and others) understand that fetus is not the same as a child maybe this thread can stop going in circles. stop comparing "killing children" to "abandoning them", and "aborting a fetus" to "walking out on a child." either way its bad.


---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 12:09 AM ----------

The woman still can do whatever she wants in this, but it seems you think women have the right to control men and force their choice on them. The solution I gave does not allow a man to force his choice onto and woman and vice a versa.

You are basically saying men should be treated as second class citizens and should be able to be controlled by women through their decisions.

im basically saying men are responsible for the decisions they make.
the solution dumps full responsibility on the woman, which is less equal than now.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

no, having hormones doesnt. a woman is still forced to choose between 1)killing child 2) giving it away 3)struggling teice as hard to raise it and it not having a father.
your suggestion puts the mans choice to just make her suffer all the responsibility.

when you (and others) understand that fetus is not the same as a child maybe this thread can stop going in circles.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 12:09 AM ----------


im basically saying men are responsible for the decisions they make.
the solution dumps full responsibility on the woman, which is less equal than now.

It doesn't dump anything, or force her into anything. What you don;'t get is she is "forced" into those choices NOW.

She can abort if she CHOOSES
She can give it up for adoption if she CHOOSES
She can keep it and raise it alone if she CHOOSES.

Nothing forced or dumped on her at all. Not less equal. Men have no choices

[TheBeardedOne]

im basically saying men are responsible for the decisions they make.
the solution dumps full responsibility on the woman, which is less equal than now.

Can you read? option one gives responsibility to both parties, option two gives the choice to the woman, if she agrees to have the child the man has ALL responsibility, the third once again gives the woman the choice whether she wants responsibility or not.

All you are saying is women have a choice, fuck men they deserve no choice, they should just be responsible for actions while at the same time saying that women should be able to get rid of their responsibility.

Of course all women should be able to take away responsibility and control their own body, but they do not have the right to force control, financial burden, stress and responsibility onto a man. No one should have this right, NO ONE.

[LilSaihah]

im basically saying men are responsible for the decisions they make.
the solution dumps full responsibility on the woman, which is less equal than now.

Women already have full responsibility over whether they have a child, after conception. The man has no say in it. They are dragging the man along, regardless of his intentions or desires.

[obdigore]

Women already have full responsibility over whether they have a child, after conception. The man has no say in it. They are dragging the man along, regardless of his intentions or desires.

Equal choices are for equal situations. This isn't.

I'm not sure how that is hard to understand, but w/e.

[starlord]

It doesn't dump anything, or force her into anything. What you don;'t get is she is "forced" into those choices NOW.

She can abort if she CHOOSES
She can give it up for adoption if she CHOOSES
She can keep it and raise it alone if she CHOOSES.

with a shared responsibility.

Nothing forced or dumped on her at all. Not less equal.

it is, and it violates the childs rights as well.

Men have no choices

they do. i'll tell you the same thing you said:
"just because its a shitty choice doesnt mean you dont have one."

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 12:29 AM ----------

Women already have full responsibility over whether they have a child, after conception. The man has no say in it. They are dragging the man along, regardless of his intentions or desires.

it doesnt matter after conception. his actions caused the conception, so he has responsibility for what comes of it as well as her.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

with a shared responsibility.

it is, and it violates the childs rights as well.

they do. i'll tell you the same thing you said:
"just because its a shitty choice doesnt mean you dont have one."

Then again, make abortion illegal under these same premises. 'Its violating the childs rights"

Darenyon- But there is no child, thus its rights aren't taken if she aborts before its alive.

Me- True, just like in this example, the man would absolve relationship to the fetus, and the woman can make an informed decision on what would be best for her.

[TheBeardedOne]

with a shared responsibility.

it is, and it violates the childs rights as well.

they do. i'll tell you the same thing you said:
"just because its a shitty choice doesnt mean you dont have one."

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 12:29 AM ----------


it doesnt matter after conception. his actions caused the conception, so he has responsibility for what comes of it as well as her.

Cause the woman is innocent in this right, this says all we need to know. The actions in making are equal, unless it is a case of fraud, deceit or rape.
This line shows that it is the mans fault, the man caused this and the man has to be punished

[LilSaihah]

Equal choices are for equal situations. This isn't.

I'm not sure how that is hard to understand, but w/e.

I do understand the difference, but this "should men have this right, should women have this right" is a smaller piece of the larger puzzle. Children are, optimally, supposed to be raised within a family. Encouraging single motherhood is a small piece that coincides with other aspects of modern society.

[obdigore]

I do understand the difference, but this "should men have this right, should women have this right" is a smaller piece of the larger puzzle. Children are, optimally, supposed to be raised within a family. Encouraging single motherhood is a small piece that coincides with other aspects of modern society.

I don't consider the current legal options perfect, I do, however, consider them the best we have available for the situation.

[starlord]

Can you read? option one gives responsibility to both parties, option two gives the choice to the woman, if she agrees to have the child the man has ALL responsibility, the third once again gives the woman the choice whether she wants responsibility or not.

he doesnt have ALL the responsibility. ALL the responsibility would be raising it, not paying a bit of money to make up for the income, not time, care, or love. so does a woman if her child lives with him- because they both have responsibility. thats what you dont get - you think just because you pay money its a huge burden. raising a kid is 10x that burden.

All you are saying is women have a choice, fuck men they deserve no choice, they should just be responsible for actions while at the same time saying that women should be able to get rid of their responsibility.

no, they are responsible as well. when she has an abortion, that is part of it. abandoning a kid and "fuck what happens to it" is not fulfilling responsibility.

Of course all women should be able to take away responsibility and control their own body, but they do not have the right to force control, financial burden, stress and responsibility onto a man. No one should have this right, NO ONE.

women dont, CHILDREN do. and yes they should have that right.

[Cybran]

Really not seeing how its sexist that you can't get a medical procedure for an organ you don't have.

Since I can't get a medical abortion, why not give me form of legal procedure to lessen the inherent disability of my inferior gender? It would bring us closer to equality. After all, isn't that your goal girls?

Oh i forgot, feminism is not about equality, silly us.

isnt men wanting to leave their children the entire premise of the thread?

No. It's about giving men a form of legal abortion which will deny dishonest women the legal power to rob men.

[starlord]

Cause the woman is innocent in this right,

no? ive said over and over and over in this thread that they both are responsible.

this says all we need to know.

that you cant read.

The actions in making are equal, unless it is a case of fraud, deceit or rape.

thats what ive said the past 70 pages.

This line shows that it is the mans fault, the man caused this and the man has to be punished

it is his fault. its also her fault. thats why they both are responsible for their kid.
basic principle of parenthood.

[TheBeardedOne]

he doesnt have ALL the responsibility. ALL the responsibility would be raising it, not paying a bit of money to make up for the income, not time, care, or love. so does a woman if her child lives with him- because they both have responsibility. thats what you dont get - you think just because you pay money its a huge burden. raising a kid is 10x that burden.
no, they are responsible as well. when she has an abortion, that is part of it. abandoning a kid and "fuck what happens to it" is not fulfilling responsibility.

women dont, CHILDREN do. and yes they should have that right.

You have still failed to address any fundamental problem with the original solution i gave, no where did i say that paying was a bigger burden than raising, you are now putting words in my mouth to further your own agenda. Also we are talking about all this before it is a child, once the child is born the choices from my solution have already been made and the child will be in a stable home that was fully prepared for it(whichever choice is taken)

[starlord]

You have still failed to address any fundamental problem with the original solution i gave, no where did i say that paying was a bigger burden than raising, you are now putting words in my mouth to further your own agenda. Also we are talking about all this before it is a child, once the child is born the choices from my solution have already been made and the child will be in a stable home that was fully prepared for it(whichever choice is taken)

you said "men get ALL the burden".

it doesnt matter before its a child. as someone else helpfully pointed out, the situation is exactly the same as now.
the only difference is if there is a child.

[Wells]

Since I can't get a medical abortion, why not give me form of legal procedure to lessen the inherent disability of my inferior gender? It would bring us closer to equality. After all, isn't that your goal girls?

Oh i forgot, feminism is not about equality, silly us.



No. It's about giving men a form of legal abortion which will deny dishonest women the legal power to rob men.

If you're not going to debate in good faith then don't debate.