I think people are underestimating how bad the Warrior nerfs actually are.

[pkm]

I don't think you understand what passive dmg reduction is.

[Deleted]

Try rolling a Retri Paladin then and then you can tell me about how bad your Warrior is. :/

[Flaks]

Not that I disagree with you meathead but if it's hard for a casual pvper to kill someone, it's gotta be nerfed. Casual players are blizzards target audience these days.

You're mixing up casual with bad. Only bad players can't kill warriors on 5.1 right now through second wind and defensive stance.

Try rolling a Retri Paladin then and then you can tell me about how bad your Warrior is. :/

Not this again. Rets are fine.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 04:00 PM ----------

I don't think you understand what passive dmg reduction is.

I don't think you understand what "different classes are different means".

I don't think you understand that having extra passive damage reduction is a NECESSITY to at least attempt to address glaring weaknesses as a warrior that other classes make up in other ways.

[pkm]

You're mixing up casual with bad. Only bad players can't kill warriors on 5.1 right now through second wind and defensive stance.



Not this again. Rets are fine.

The majority is bad anyway I'm not mixing it up. Pvp will be dumbed down even further and further as the game progresses. Pve is taking the hit too.

[Gatsu]

The title should be changed in "I think people are overestimating warriors' survivability in battle stance"

[Deleted]

Dk's can switch to blood presence for increased armor, hp, and dmg mitigation and druids can go bear form but nobody else have passive dmg reduction

Compare DK Blood presence and Def stance and I think you will find def stance vastly superior.

On my warr I find that the dps loss in def stance is marginal, on my dk blood presence gimps resource generation and provides hardly any protection.

Why?

The penalty for def stance is rage generation loss yet all of the key strikes used by Arms (except for Slam and HS) cost no rage.

MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used! (Deadly calm can also be used to circumvent the HS rage cost)

My DK on the other hand has a big knock on from going blood resulting in runic power starvation if frost or rune starvation if unholy. No strikes are free of cost and even defensive cooldowns like IBF cost resources to use.

if warriors are finding themselves squishy in battle/zerker stance then I say welcome to the DK's world where plate is paper thin.

[meathead]

I don't know of any melee that get passive dmg reduction abilitys other then my warrior. Most of the time if they have them it all it comes with a big dps punishment. This is why it was nerfed, if you as a warrior dying in a stun you should prob learn to watch for the swaps and stop being a terrible player. I have yet to die like this and unless I just fail to watch the opposing team I prob never will.

most if not all classes have passive reduction? Spriests shadowform, lock fel armor, rogues can have recoup+feint(still flop over but it's something). Mage has molten armor, dks blood presence, even hunters get 15% with the aspect, you get the point. Most classes at this point have 10-15% damage reduct, and taking away from warriors is retarded."

[Gatsu]

Compare DK Blood presence and Def stance and I think you will find def stance vastly superior.

On my warr I find that the dps loss in def stance is marginal, on my dk blood presence gimps resource generation and provides hardly any protection.

Why?

The penalty for def stance is rage generation loss yet all of the key strikes used by Arms (except for Slam and HS) cost no rage.

MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used! (Deadly calm can also be used to circumvent the HS rage cost)

My DK on the other hand has a big knock on from going blood resulting in runic power starvation if frost or rune starvation if unholy. No strikes are free of cost and even defensive cooldowns like IBF cost resources to use.

if warriors are finding themselves squishy in battle/zerker stance then I say welcome to the DK's world where plate is paper thin.

The point is that they nerfed Def stance (right thing to do) AND the viability to stay in it.

[meathead]

Compare DK Blood presence and Def stance and I think you will find def stance vastly superior.

On my warr I find that the dps loss in def stance is marginal, on my dk blood presence gimps resource generation and provides hardly any protection.

Why?

The penalty for def stance is rage generation loss yet all of the key strikes used by Arms (except for Slam and HS) cost no rage.

MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used! (Deadly calm can also be used to circumvent the HS rage cost)

My DK on the other hand has a big knock on from going blood resulting in runic power starvation if frost or rune starvation if unholy. No strikes are free of cost and even defensive cooldowns like IBF cost resources to use.

if warriors are finding themselves squishy in battle/zerker stance then I say welcome to the DK's world where plate is paper thin.

"MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used!"

lmfao you just fucked up you know that right?OP and MS have both been nerfed.OP now costs 10 rage.i find it funny that blizz makes op cost 10 rage,thats more rage then it ever has cost.at a time when rage has been normalized and warriors generate less rage then ever before.why make op cost more when get generate less rage= over kill.

as for MS,if it misses we do not get an op proc=over kill!they tried that once before and it did not work,but who fuckign cares right warriors are op'ed,so fuck it.it will be fun to miss a MS then stand there and have no rage for nothing.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 12:01 PM ----------

The point is that they nerfed Def stance (right thing to do) AND the viability to stay in it.

bingo! im fine with the nerf to d-stance being at 15%.buts its the other shit thats over kill,op nerf,2nd wind nerf,MS nerf.people refuse to see that,its over nerfing that we dont like not the nerf to d-stance.

[Adornus]

"MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used!"

lmfao you just fucked up you know that right?OP and MS have both been nerfed.OP now costs 10 rage.i find it funny that blizz makes op cost 10 rage,thats more rage then it ever has cost.at a time when rage has been normalized and warriors generate less rage then ever before.why make op cost more when get generate less rage= over kill.

as for MS,if it misses we do not get an op proc=over kill!they tried that once before and it did not work,but who fuckign cares right warriors are op'ed,so fuck it.it will be fun to miss a MS then stand there and have no rage for nothing.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 12:01 PM ----------



bingo! im fine with the nerf to d-stance being at 15%.buts its the other shit thats over kill,op nerf,2nd wind nerf,MS nerf.people refuse to see that,its over nerfing that we dont like not the nerf to d-stance.

I disagree. They should have left D-stance at 25%, but completely gutted DPS ability out of it. Make it an opportunity cost.

And seriously, it amazes me listening to Warriors say that they will get globaled in Battle Stance. Try being a WW Monk or Enh Shaman, where you can't open like a Warrior or Rogue, cant swap stances to passive defensives, and cant oh-shit bubble/vanish/etc. At least Warriors have so much offensive pressure that it helps them stay off the defensive. Those two specs have none of the above.

[Hand Banana]

What 5.2 should be doing but isnt:

- Make OP cost 5 rage
- Gut D stance for arms, not viable at all.
- Give 10% passive DR for battle stance, or 5% Dr and 10% healing received.
- Increase heroic strike damage by 50%
- Make recklessness a 2 min cd that increases crit by 30%, and make it not stack with avatar
- Make second wind a 1% per second heal for 10 seconds after receiving a crit or taking a hit > 10% of total life. (not be affected by battle fatigue)

But no, they decided to overnerf wars, make the stances confusing, kept cd stacking, kept second wind through all the complaining, and gutted Hs and TfB.

[kosechi]

let me turn that around on you.good arena players know how to counter warriors and they could even counter tfb,but we/it are still being nerfed,why?high end pvpers know when to ff on a warriors "hint battle stance" and know when to cc him,but we are still being nerfed. people cry about 2nd wind and i never had a problem killing a warriors with 2nd at all.so it must be balanced right?only bad pvpers complain about 2nd wind.

knowing HOW to TfB and being ABLE to counter TfB are two completely different things. abilities that produce one shots like TfB/chaos wave/frost bomb were capable of could should not be in the game. its just bad design.

they need punishment for sitting in def stance because 15% flat damage reduction at all times should come at a significant cost

why because you think so?hunters have it,mages have it.alot of classes have 10-15% damage reduction and i stated that more then once but you dont want to respond to that.you just want warriors to be an easy kill again,and thats not how the class was supposed to be.the warrior class was designed to give and take a ton of damage.we had more armour and more hit points then any other class,but they took that all away and warriors became easy to kill.now we finialy have the tools and defense to keep ourself alive and you dont liek that and want it all nerfed,lmfao at you.[COLOR="red"]

no, because its fair and balanced.

every other tank capable hybrid with access to damage reduction in their tank stance pays a hefty dps cost for that damage reduction. warriors do not. why are they special? i'm not talking about hunters, or mages, or shadowpriests. i'm talking about tank. capable. hybrids.

armor means nothing, other everyone else has a high dps penalty for more hit points and damage reduction, warriors do not.

Not this again. Rets are fine.[COLOR="red"]

get over yourself, ret was fine before they gutted pvppower for hybrids. its not fine now. if ret is fine and 'balanced' warriors need a lot more nerfs to bring them to ret's level.

[Deleted]

Swifty is on darkspear, there is no arena team in the US with a 2900 rating. Nice try. If you are talking RBGs no one cares because wintrading made them a joke.

Exactly my thought, haha.. RBGs have issues that go far outside of simple number crunching balance.

[Wow]

most if not all classes have passive reduction? Spriests shadowform, lock fel armor, rogues can have recoup+feint(still flop over but it's something). Mage has molten armor, dks blood presence, even hunters get 15% with the aspect, you get the point. Most classes at this point have 10-15% damage reduct, and taking away from warriors is retarded."

Feint and recup are passive really? Aspect of the iron hawk is talent which means it comes at a price, healing vs dmg reduction. That would be like def stance vs second wind you could only have 1. Molten armor isn't used by frost mages and is only 6%.

The truth is most classes don't have a passive at no real loss dmg reduction.

Passive reduction
Priests
locks
warriors
Moonkin
Dk

no passive reduction
Shammy
Rogues
Pallys
Monks
Mages
Resto druid
Feral druid

Hunters could go in both since they have to spec for it.

But what you were replying to was vs other melee so lets look at that.

Passive reduction
Warriors
Dk's

Without passive
Feral
Rogues
WW monks
Enh
Ret pally

Looks like most melee don't have one And the other that does comes at the cost of real amounts of dmg. Looks like def stance and rage costs are being brought in line with it.

[Miko]

Dk's can switch to blood presence for increased armor, hp, and dmg mitigation and druids can go bear form but nobody else have passive dmg reduction

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 10:44 AM ----------




Dk's can switch to blood presence for increased armor, hp, and dmg mitigation and druids can go bear form but nobody else have passive dmg reduction

If only you read what I said. Both blood presence and bear
Form come at big dps loses. Def stance does not.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 01:36 PM ----------

[QUOTE=meathead;19954262]"MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used!"

lmfao you just fucked up you know that right?OP and MS have both been nerfed.OP now costs 10 rage.i find it funny that blizz makes op cost 10 rage,thats more rage then it ever has cost.at a time when rage has been normalized and warriors generate less rage then ever before.why make op cost more when get generate less rage= over kill.

I think he means as it is, they don't cost anything. Which was the main reason they added a cost. We may gen less rage now, but we also spend less too. A lot less.

[Omaski]

Compare DK Blood presence and Def stance and I think you will find def stance vastly superior.

On my warr I find that the dps loss in def stance is marginal, on my dk blood presence gimps resource generation and provides hardly any protection.

Why?

The penalty for def stance is rage generation loss yet all of the key strikes used by Arms (except for Slam and HS) cost no rage.

MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used! (Deadly calm can also be used to circumvent the HS rage cost)

My DK on the other hand has a big knock on from going blood resulting in runic power starvation if frost or rune starvation if unholy. No strikes are free of cost and even defensive cooldowns like IBF cost resources to use.

if warriors are finding themselves squishy in battle/zerker stance then I say welcome to the DK's world where plate is paper thin.

i know i was agreeing with you saying that yes some classes have a little passive dmg reduction but D-Stance also comes with little Dps loss as well. Read my entire post esp. the last sentence, "No other class has passive dmg reduction"

[Omaski]

i understand that blood presence and bear form come at a rather large dps loss while D-stance does not. i was replying to a previous commenter saying D-Stance is the same as Blood Presences and bear form stating that while some classes do have passive dmg reduction they are not on par with D-Stance.

[halfawake]

how dare a warriors with low health run away from you and heal up a little,bad game design!how dare a warrior whos close to death use his abilites he has to keep him self alive,bad game design!

"I don't think overnerfing is such a bad thing"

that tells me all i need to know about you .you have np with over nerfing as long as it does not happen to you.have fun playing your monk next season.

I play a moonkin dude, we're not exactly amazing in arena and one of the reasons is all the crazy melee cleaves out there. Go ahead and compare a moonkin to a warrior and see who has more control, survivability, mobility, and damage. You guys have everything atm and it's all pretty easy to get off. Like I said, being overnerfed is not such a bad thing when you're so grossly overpowered. Overshooting the mark and fixing a few things is easier than undershooting and having to nerf even more things.

[meathead]

knowing HOW to TfB and being ABLE to counter TfB are two completely different things. abilities that produce one shots like TfB/chaos wave/frost bomb were capable of could should not be in the game. its just bad design.



no, because its fair and balanced.

every other tank capable hybrid with access to damage reduction in their tank stance pays a hefty dps cost for that damage reduction. warriors do not. why are they special? i'm not talking about hunters, or mages, or shadowpriests. i'm talking about tank. capable. hybrids.

armor means nothing, other everyone else has a high dps penalty for more hit points and damage reduction, warriors do not.



get over yourself, ret was fine before they gutted pvppower for hybrids. its not fine now. if ret is fine and 'balanced' warriors need a lot more nerfs to bring them to ret's level.

your so one sided its not funny!you think this and you think that,good pvpers had no problems with ret in wrath.but that not the case with warriors you say lmfao.warrior do less damage and get less rage from d-stance case fuckign closed.if thats not good enough for you,then tough shit.fury will be using d-stance next patch watch and see.arms doe snot have the rage to keep up there rotation in b-stance,so d-stance is not going to happen.so thats -25% damage for warriors,but you like that.so that leaves ?hunters,mages,locks and other classes with 10-15% damage reduction,except for warriors.yeha that sounds fair to me.

also if you think rets and other hybrids healing was fine before the nerf your crazy.you guys could out heal healers,but like i said you liek that so itf fine,right?

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 03:57 PM ----------

Feint and recup are passive really? Aspect of the iron hawk is talent which means it comes at a price, healing vs dmg reduction. That would be like def stance vs second wind you could only have 1. Molten armor isn't used by frost mages and is only 6%.

The truth is most classes don't have a passive at no real loss dmg reduction.

Passive reduction
Priests
locks
warriors
Moonkin
Dk

no passive reduction
Shammy
Rogues
Pallys
Monks
Mages
Resto druid
Feral druid

Hunters could go in both since they have to spec for it.

But what you were replying to was vs other melee so lets look at that.

Passive reduction
Warriors
Dk's

Without passive
Feral
Rogues
WW monks
Enh
Ret pally

Looks like most melee don't have one And the other that does comes at the cost of real amounts of dmg. Looks like def stance and rage costs are being brought in line with it.

your list looks close to even,like i said most classes do have passive -damage reduction.also warriors that sit in d-stance pay a price for doing so=less rage =less damage.i dotn see how you can sit here and say every class except for warriors have draw backs,we do.and at one point every thing and every talent/stance warrior had all had draw backs.nice to see mos tof that shit gone now.warriors need a passive damage reduction because we can not heal and 2nd wind has been nerfed.the other classes you list have o shit buttons,like pallys bubble.warriors cant switch to d-stance and pop shield wall if we are stunned,right?

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 04:01 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Miko;19956385]If only you read what I said. Both blood presence and bear
Form come at big dps loses. Def stance does not.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 01:36 PM ----------

"MS, OP, CS, Shockwave all cost nothing and these skills are the most used!"

lmfao you just fucked up you know that right?OP and MS have both been nerfed.OP now costs 10 rage.i find it funny that blizz makes op cost 10 rage,thats more rage then it ever has cost.at a time when rage has been normalized and warriors generate less rage then ever before.why make op cost more when get generate less rage= over kill.

I think he means as it is, they don't cost anything. Which was the main reason they added a cost. We may gen less rage now, but we also spend less too. A lot less.

you will see that the op nerf is going to kill arms rotation.you not goign to have enough rage to keep up your rotation. spaming hamstring/PH t-clap, then back to back opers for 10 rage per. dotn forget about slam being 30 rage and say good bye to herioc ST.there not going to be rage for that.there now way arms is going to have rage to fire off slams when the rage is going to op ect.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 04:10 PM ----------

I play a moonkin dude, we're not exactly amazing in arena and one of the reasons is all the crazy melee cleaves out there. Go ahead and compare a moonkin to a warrior and see who has more control, survivability, mobility, and damage. You guys have everything atm and it's all pretty easy to get off. Like I said, being overnerfed is not such a bad thing when you're so grossly overpowered. Overshooting the mark and fixing a few things is easier than undershooting and having to nerf even more things.

restro and ferals are pretty strong atm right?are you made that only 1 of your specs is not that good in pvp?ferals rape ass atm.lets compare warriors and ferals,sound ok?moonkins are casters,and we all know there dps in pvp is the worst of any class in game,right? again you think its ok to over nerf warriors because we were op'ed when mop started.that makes you look bad and you do not know wtf your talking about.so if your right,that means since warriors got shit on in cata "worst pvp class in game last few seasons and unwanted for rbgs" that we should be over buffed now?

[hammock]

get over yourself, ret was fine before they gutted pvppower for hybrids. its not fine now. if ret is fine and 'balanced' warriors need a lot more nerfs to bring them to ret's level.

Ret is fine.
Just because one or a few classes are above you doesn't mean your spec is broken and underpowerd.

Yeah, I dont even play a warrior but its obviously gone a few steps too far. Especially since what they are doing with other classes..