Why does socialized medicine suck again?

[Masark]

There are 16 of them listed quite clearly, I still haven't seen one for any of the "facts" you've stated. I'm not trying to discredit what you've said, because I haven't seen anything that says otherwise, however to my knowledge you could easily be creating everything as you go.


All 16 sources, as shown by the page: http://img.ctrlv.in/50fd6c5f36f03.jpg

I was stating I couldn't find a readable version of their source for their 8th fact, not for their facts in general.

And most of my sourcing is their sourcing, minus their cherry picking.

[Catta]

Oh gee, that's very compelling evidence. Could you tell us what your tax rates are? Surely they must be super low, just like the US.

Yes, we rather not spend money we dont have so either we cut or we get the money. Quite fiscally responsible dont you think?

[Masark]

According to Wikipedia Sweden has 33 % of its GDP in public debt. (Denmark 11 % and Norway 29 %)
Norway, Denmark and Sweden are pretty much the poster boys of social democracies and are the few European countries who are not hit very hard by the recession.
What is the public debt of the US again?

Last I checked, Norway's debt is about 45% of GDP.

But they also have about 140% of GDP in their wealth fund.

[Laize]

Because there's still profit to be made. The customer simply has the weight to negotiate a more favorable price point, for them. That's how capitalism works.

The insurance companies have more than enough leverage to negotiate favorable prices that aren't entirely one-sided. Companies that cure serious diseases deserve monstrous levels of reward for doing so. Removing their leverage through a monopsony is wholly unethical.

How about Canada, then?

Our tax rates are pretty comparable to those of the US. Federal income tax in Canada, for instance, varies between 15-29%. In the US, between 15 and 35% (ignoring the 10% bracket, since in Canada that bracket pays 0% income tax). Canada has slightly higher provincial income tax rates than US state rates, in general, however. Overall, the tax burden is pretty similar.

And, again, we're able to afford socialized health care, and a debt that's significantly smaller per capita, and a much lower deficit (and we've run a surplus in recent history; the Conservatives just aren't interested in doing so for whatever reason).

And how big of a military complex does Canada need to support? Don't forget, American Military hegemony is about the entire reason things in the world are as peaceful as they are and international trade is as safe as it is.

America is a different country from Canada or any country in Europe. We have the thankless job (and privilege) of having a nearly 100% share of global power. Without it, it would just be someone else... nature abhors a power vacuum.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 04:41 PM ----------

Yes, we rather not spend money we dont have so either we cut or we get the money. Quite fiscally responsible dont you think?

Indeed. And you know who was doing that same thing before they decided to start 2 wars and save some of the largest companies in the world from bankruptcy? The United States.

We made 3 spectacularly bad decisions that cost us $16 trillion.

As long as the deficit gets closed, however, that debt won't be a problem.

[Catta]

Last I checked, Norway's debt is about 45% of GDP.

But they also have about 140% of GDP in their wealth fund.

Dey took arh oil!

[FathomFear]

I just had non-essential surgery in my chest (a procedure which took around 2 hours of operating) and it left me with a bill of around 15 USD... lol
So tell me, why does socialized medicine suck again? This procedure would've cost around 6000 dollars if I had funded it privately....

Well, the situation isn't that simple. At least as far as costs goes. I live in Nova Scotia and end up paying close to 40% in income tax (combining both federal and provincial tax). This is quite a bit more than people would pay in most U.S. states. And on top of that I pay 15% sales tax on all non-essential goods and services.

For the record, though, I do prefer the peace of mind--despite the higher taxes. I also like the fact that the system protects all people vs. those wealthy enough to purchase insurance. I would not want to live in a place where the poor are screwed.

[Catta]

Indeed. And you know who was doing that same thing before they decided to start 2 wars and save some of the largest companies in the world from bankruptcy? The United States.

We made 3 spectacularly bad decisions that cost us $16 trillion.

As long as the deficit gets closed, however, that debt won't be a problem.

Better make 16 of them platinum coins

[namelessone]

And how big of a military complex does Canada need to support? Don't forget, American Military hegemony is about the entire reason things in the world are as peaceful as they are and international trade is as safe as it is.

I'm not sure there is a point arguing with this person anymore.

[Roose]

Companies that cure serious diseases deserve monstrous levels of reward for doing so. Removing their leverage through a monopsony is wholly unethical.

And how big of a military complex does Canada need to support? Don't forget, American Military hegemony is about the entire reason things in the world are as peaceful as they are and international trade is as safe as it is.

Wow. Up until just then I paid attention to you.

I do not understand the argument that science is entirely motivated by money therefore no new innovation results in socialized healthcare.

In fact, many of our great scientists that have come up with radical advances are not motivated by greed. They are motivated intrinsically. Greed is a horrible motive to rely on for advances in healthcare. That is how we get penis pill research pushed ahead of cancer research.

[Catta]

And how big of a military complex does Canada need to support? Don't forget, American Military hegemony is about the entire reason things in the world are as peaceful as they are and international trade is as safe as it is.

America is a different country from Canada or any country in Europe. We have the thankless job (and privilege) of having a nearly 100% share of global power. Without it, it would just be someone else... nature abhors a power vacuum.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 04:41 PM ----------



Indeed. And you know who was doing that same thing before they decided to start 2 wars and save some of the largest companies in the world from bankruptcy? The United States.

We made 3 spectacularly bad decisions that cost us $16 trillion.

As long as the deficit gets closed, however, that debt won't be a problem.

Didnt you just point out that you started 2 stupid wars and then say you are the reason its peaceful

[Masark]

Indeed. And you know who was doing that same thing before they decided to start 2 wars and save some of the largest companies in the world from bankruptcy?

Funny. I seem to remember the USA running non-stop deficits since 1959. When most of the country wasn't alive for the last balanced budget, you do not have any claim on the words "fiscal conservatism".

[Endus]

The insurance companies have more than enough leverage to negotiate favorable prices that aren't entirely one-sided. Companies that cure serious diseases deserve monstrous levels of reward for doing so. Removing their leverage through a monopsony is wholly unethical.

So strength in negotiation is only good if it benefits the corporation.

You have a strange definition of "capitalism". Or a "free market".

And how big of a military complex does Canada need to support?

A reasonably sized one, given our needs for national defense.

Don't forget, American Military hegemony is about the entire reason things in the world are as peaceful as they are and international trade is as safe as it is.

Yeah, no. That's just false. The US initiates conflict relatively often. That's not helping the world to be more peaceful. Nor did anyone elect you the World Police.

[Deleted]

We have the thankless job (and privilege) of having a nearly 100% share of global power.

I was trying to take your arguments seriously, but I had problems with them, after this comment you lost all credibility.

O.t.: Socialized medicine works in Europe, because we have the tradition of having thrustworthy governments.
It would not work in the US, because rich people influence the public opinion (by using the magic word "freedom") in order to make more profit, the people who think that a big government will go corrupt & tyrannical ignore the fact that the big corporations and business men are corrupting the country in the name of capitalism and profit.

I don't mean to say that Europe is free of corruption, but we are a lot more free, because our employers do not have as much possibilities to control our lives (and yes, health insurance is 1 possibilty for a company/employer to control you)

[Laize]

I'm not sure there is a point arguing with this person anymore.

Really?

Ask yourself what happened every time there wasn't a global superpower playing "world police"?

You can make the moral argument that we shouldn't be policing the world, and you'd be completely correct. From a moral standpoint it's ridiculous to have the US in a position to bully everyone out there.

Facts speak of the alternatives being worse. Throughout all of human history it has been nothing but international war after international war. And not relatively isolated conflicts like we saw in Afghanistan or Iraq. Violence that spilled across borders and caused wars in completely unrelated countries.

When England stepped back from their role as a superpower for the first time in hundreds of years what did we get? WWI and WWII.

It wasn't until the US took over that conflicts became isolated to their home countries again.

Look at Africa. When Europe ended its practice of colonialism, what happened? A continent-sized power vacuum with civil wars raging even today.

Yes, it's entirely unethical to have one nation be bully to all others. It's an unfortunate necessity, though.

[Roose]

Laize: the champion of corporate greed and American imperialism. Friends like you and we will have plenty of enemies.

[Orlong]

When you think a persons life is not worth caring for just because a person lives on welfare, you set no value in human life.

Well a person on welfare contributes nothing to society and only leeches from it. Why do they deserve anything?

[Laize]

So strength in negotiation is only good if it benefits the corporation.

You have a strange definition of "capitalism". Or a "free market".

No. Strength in negotiation is good for everyone. But if you think a monopoly is bad, I'm not sure how you can approve of a monopsony.

A reasonably sized one, given our needs for national defense.



Yeah, no. That's just false. The US initiates conflict relatively often. That's not helping the world to be more peaceful. Nor did anyone elect you the World Police.

Really? Then why don't you point out to me how much better things were during the times when there was no global superpower? How were things back when the UK stepped back from colonialism and before the US ended its isolationism? Must've been pretty spectacular with no power grabs whatsoever, right?

[Catta]

Well a person on welfare contributes nothing to society and only leeches from it. Why do they deserve anything?

Because they have the potential to contribute.

[Roose]

Well a person on welfare contributes nothing to society and only leeches from it. Why do they deserve anything?

Wait, we have another sighting.

Because they are human beings. Nobody will argue that we do not need welfare reform, but if you argue to end it entirely you are just a cold hearted snake.

[Deleted]

When I need surgery done, I don't have time to look at the competition. From there, the free market can go f*** itself.
And honestly, how many clinics, hospitals, even doctors does one even have access to outside of big cities ?

And to the folks saying that it's my fault if I need healthcare, you sicken me. Is it my fault that I have to wear glasses just to see correctly ? No, I was born that way. And there are plenty of cases like that; your health is not something you have that much control over. Sure, people will do stupid things. I trust them not to do them often enough for it to be a problem. It's not like they're going to do it again.

Honestly, the healthcare costs in America just turn the whole thing into leonine contracts. Want to be able to live normally ? That'll be $100,000, I hope you're not part of the one american in 12 that are out of a job. I don't know how you can even run this crap.