Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[jax]

They're so rare, especially in 25m, that they're irrelevant. Your argument is irrelevant. That's the point here.

Finally in all that wall of text, lies, ancedotal evidence and just plan insanity you touched back on the point of this whole thread so I will respond to it to try and get us back to the point.

The point is that we are now running and have been running LFR for upgrades and will continue to do so in 5.2 despite what the vocal minority say. This is the same model as with Wrath, having to run 10s to supplement your gear for 25s.
The gear was lower Ilevel (251) but still much better than heroic 5 man content so people said it felt like a job having to run both.

My contention is we are still running "both" its just called LFR now instead of 10 man.

So if the reasoning is that having to run 2 seperate raids back then felt like work, and that was the sole reason to share lockouts... someone explain why isnt LFR the same thing?

[Deleted]

My statements refuted your premise. Your conclusion may very well be true, but it doesn't follow from your premise. I actually agree with your conclusion and previous posts of me in this thread underline this. That does not mean I agree with the premise we discussed for 1 page now though.

For people who are doing every week N or H (farms, progression) the reason to do LFR will very quickly be zero with a few anomalies and exceptions to the rule.

Also, in ICC 25N PuG players bailed out when their loot didn't drop (or they didn't win it) which lead to very frustrating PuG groups e.g. disband after Saurfang DBW didn't drop. LFR doesn't suffer from this issue.

[Volbian]

My statements refuted your premise. Your conclusion may very well be true, but it doesn't follow from your premise. I actually agree with your conclusion and previous posts of me in this thread underline this. That does not mean I agree with the premise we discussed for 1 page now though.

For people who are doing every week N or H (farms, progression) the reason to do LFR will very quickly be zero with a few anomalies and exceptions to the rule.

Also, in ICC 25N PuG players bailed out when their loot didn't drop (or they didn't win it) which lead to very frustrating PuG groups e.g. disband after Saurfang DBW didn't drop. LFR doesn't suffer from this issue.

No, LFR suffers from the issue of people leaving after one wipe.

The fact is, most players, were willing to learn their class, rotation, and mechanics of fights, back in the days. NOW, most players, want things handed to them with minimal effort. Thats why people do LFR.
LFR in fact, has better gear then Normal MV, and im not talking about Ilvl.

I have toons across mutiple servers, both Horde and Alliance sides. I can honestly say, the players base has no skill or the knack to learn. Its pew pew to kill things, push whatever buttons, stand in whatever derp, until its dead or they die. While they are dead, whether its on purpose or from derping, then they AFK and dont watch and learn anything from the remainder of the fight.

Its more of a "hurry and kill it so i can get my loot". Thats what happens when you cater to a bunch of children.

The point is, 25s are dying, because all the adults are quitting, due to whatever reasons. Pugging 25's is like Kindergarten, You have the teacher(GM/RL), watching over their students(raiders), making sure they dont sniff glue or stab someone with scissors, during Arts and Craft Day.

Contrary to popular belief, AGE FACTOR, which is over looked by Blizzard, is why its in the mess it is.

[Deleted]

No, LFR suffers from the issue of people leaving after one wipe.

I agree, but far less than ICC25N/H did, especially before people would enter and get saved if they accepted the save. Killed Saurfang and your ArP users are leaving by the bushes? Not only do you need new people, the more new ones you need to get the higher the chance you get those who don't need DBW will join: ie. FDO users. Esp when people are there for them trinkets. In LFR, getting new players is far less cumbersome but we're spoiled from having those perfect 1-shot runs, and there's no loot disputes.

The fact is, most players, were and are willing to learn their class,rotation, and mechanics of fights, back in the days. NOW, most players, want things handed to them with minimal effort. Thats why people do LFR.
LFR in fact, has better gear then Normal MV, and im not talking about Ilvl.

It could also be people just don't care to perform with a bunch of randoms they'll never meet again (anonimity-related) as well as they don't have to perform (difficulty-related). Since their relevance is neglectible, horrible stuff which is normally socially unacceptable like bad damage, ignoring mechanics, being AFK, suicide are more rampant.

IOW we'd have to analyze how many % players CAN do better but are slacking (group 1), how many % of players CANNOT do better and are playing the content meant for them (group 2) versus the % of players who ARE pushing their limits (group 3).

[Talen]

That might be the point to you and to the majority of the playerbase, but it's not for me, for example. I wouldn't mind not having any gear in the game at all, just boss fights.

Gear is an important element of the game and currently one of the biggest rewards there is. It can look good, and more powerful gear impacts positively on every aspect of the game.

Its not the only reward, nor even a major one for some players, but for most it remains a very important element.

And it's completely false to say people went to 25s because they had to.

No. While it might not be universally true, a large portion of those who did 25s did in fact do so because they had to. The game channeled them there and they were drawn there to get the reward they wanted.

But what they really wanted was the highest ilvl in their gear and didn't really care about the size.

Yes. And that was seen as bad because it wrecked 10 man guilds, forced players to raid with others they would not otherwise raid with, it caused issues with poaching and other negative interactions between guilds.

I could just as well say that the majority of players are in 10s now, not because they want to but because they have to since that's the easiest way to get the gear.

And as far as organising and setting up a raid would go, you'd be right. Most players want to raid. They want to raid for the gear. They want to raid with friends. And they don't want the work of running and organising a 25 man if they don't have to.

The current system gives them the gear they want and allows them to raid with who they want, in a raid format that does away with much of the drudgery of organisation and scheduling while still ensuring that they face a fight that is often just as challenging as the one they'd face in 25s. What does 25s offer such players? They'd have to raid with people they care little for. They'd have to accept the drudgery of the logistical downside. In order to get gear they can get in 10s, from a fight that is just as challenging and (to many) prestigious.

So we agree then that there should be 5 man and solo modes to the raids as well? Because, you know, nobody finds the effort of organizing larger groups fun.

Actually - I'd like 5 man and solo events that would make use of raid instances. Class quests were a fun part of vanilla and I still miss the epic difficult dungeons that simply oozed flavor. The trouble is, while there is a great deal of difference between the effort needed to organise 25 and to organise 10s, the difference in effort between 1 and 10 isn't actually as great. Which is where I find this argument really falls down. 25s are difficult to organise....but 1s, 5s and 10s are all easy to organise. Especially if you have a friend list and just need to send out a guild message. Sure, theres a difference...but it isn't as great, isn't as pronounced and has nowhere near the same impact as that faced by 25s.

EJL

[Deleted]

Just go back to Wotlk model...better gear in 25 man mode
10 man raiders dont need the better gear as the 10 man bosses are tuned for the worse gear so there's no real disadvantage, there you have your prestige for the 25 man people.

[Chaochamp]

Just go back to Wotlk model...better gear in 25 man mode
10 man raiders dont need the better gear as the 10 man bosses are tuned for the worse gear so there's no real disadvantage, there you have your prestige for the 25 man people.

Not to mention the older model had a 6% increase in active raiders.

[Deleted]

Just go back to Wotlk model...better gear in 25 man mode
10 man raiders dont need the better gear as the 10 man bosses are tuned for the worse gear so there's no real disadvantage, there you have your prestige for the 25 man people.

Which means the 10m content will be less long viable due to 10m raiders using 25m PuGs to (over)gear up quicker.

Next customer please.

[Talen]

Just go back to Wotlk model...better gear in 25 man mode
10 man raiders dont need the better gear as the 10 man bosses are tuned for the worse gear so there's no real disadvantage, there you have your prestige for the 25 man people.

Except players go after the gear so 10 man guilds are essentially wrecked. In addition, better gear help in every single aspect of the game, from soloing through to raiding so 25 man gear would provide a major benefit to anyone who had it.

EJL

[Chaochamp]

Which means the 10m content will be less long viable due to 10m raiders using 25m PuGs to (over)gear up quicker.

Next customer please.

Heroic 10 man would be the same item level as 25 man. Also 10 man gear looks different, so there's some prestige/incentive for you.

[Prokne]

Just go back to Wotlk model...better gear in 25 man mode
10 man raiders dont need the better gear as the 10 man bosses are tuned for the worse gear so there's no real disadvantage, there you have your prestige for the 25 man people.

I have to agree. It would be nice if both raids were equal and everyone could raid the size they like but 25 man raiders get forced into 10s because its easier to run the raid. There are no 25man pugs unlike in Wrath where you had pugs for both sizes.

So if we go back to the Wrath model (raids of both sizes, no shared lockout, 10mans lower ilvl loot and tuned lower) 25man players will run 25s and pug 10s and 10man players will run 10s and pug 25s if they want. They should tweak it a little from Wrath though and have the same loot drop just lower ilvl and for 10man achs it should require only 10man loot being used(to maintain some respect for 10s as otherwise 25man geared players will steamroll it and call it easy).

---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 11:56 PM ----------

Except players go after the gear so 10 man guilds are essentially wrecked. In addition, better gear help in every single aspect of the game, from soloing through to raiding so 25 man gear would provide a major benefit to anyone who had it.

EJL

Dont people raid in 10man guilds because they are with their friends and only have <9 of them? There were lots of 10man guilds in Wrath and no one complained about being forced to run a certain size(probably because you could run both).

[Deleted]

Except players go after the gear so 10 man guilds are essentially wrecked. In addition, better gear help in every single aspect of the game, from soloing through to raiding so 25 man gear would provide a major benefit to anyone who had it.

EJL

Trivial benefits, justified due to the effort of 25 man raiding. Also you say people are after the gear, so as gear is so much easier avaiable in 10 man raiding, it's completly ok to neglect 25 man raids and force people into it because its more comfortable for you? Like Ghostcrawler said: 'We don't buy it that 10 man raiding is more fun, there's just no incentive for 25 man' I doubt that more thunderforged items in 25 man will really motivate more people to raid imo the real raid.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 01:06 AM ----------

Dont people raid in 10man guilds because they are with their friends and only have <9 of them? There were lots of 10man guilds in Wrath and no one complained about being forced to run a certain size(probably because you could run both).

Yeah no one complained because there was nothing to complain about, cant bring enough people for 25 man? fine, here's a fancy title for killing the Lich King in 10 man hc. I remember how much fun it was to raid with a small group of friends at the weekends, after clearing 25 man ICC with my guild. damn you failclysm

Also what the hell does EJL stand for? In case it means what I think it means, I'm not even raiding actively anymore(guess why, I cant find a 25 man guild <3 ), so calling me an elitist jerk L is a bit inappropriate

[Deleted]

Heroic 10 man would be the same item level as 25 man.

Yes, doesn't refute the point though. Stuck on 8/12 10m N? Do 25m N 4/12 to get some 264 gear and then progress on 10m N which DROPS 251. Not only will you outgear 10 N earlier, you'll even have easier time to outgear 10 H later on. Or if you're 10m H 6/12 you can do some more 25m N to get similar gear.

(And then we're not even covering that problem with loot ship being the 3rd boss and too easy, loot pinata.)

If you say 10m and 25m is different ladder, different lockout true in this context.

But the point here is that for those who prefer 10m N/H and have no interest in doing 25m H the content will be quicker less relevant compared to 25m H.

Also 10 man gear looks different, so there's some prestige/incentive for you.

..have 5 complete transmog sets challenge mode, T6, T13 LFR/N/H... so for me no incentive. YMMV.

[Volbian]

Trivial benefits, justified due to the effort of 25 man raiding. Also you say people are after the gear, so as gear is so much easier avaiable in 10 man raiding, it's completly ok to neglect 25 man raids and force people into it because its more comfortable for you? Like Ghostcrawler said: 'We don't buy it that 10 man raiding is more fun, there's just no incentive for 25 man' I doubt that more thunderforged items in 25 man will really motivate more people to raid imo the real raid.

How to you come to the conclusion that 25man raiding is the "real raid"? Raiding is raiding, regardless how many people are in it. Plz dont say its more EPIC. Nothing is epic about a game 8 yrs old. The difference between 10s and 25s is management. Both raid sizes have pros and cons to certain fights.

The issue is there's too many people spread out across multiple servers. Blizzard either needs to merge servers or offer Free transfers. Would solve alot of issues

[Deleted]

How to you come to the conclusion that 25man raiding is the "real raid"? Raiding is raiding, regardless how many people are in it. Plz dont say its more EPIC. Nothing is epic about a game 8 yrs old. The difference between 10s and 25s is management. Both raid sizes have pros and cons to certain fights.

The issue is there's too many people spread out across multiple servers. Blizzard either needs to merge servers or offer Free transfers. Would solve alot of issues

Well, but for me it feels more epic. Ofc WoW is still epic, if it wasnt I wouldnt play it anymore. And it's the real raid for me because since BC it has been THE raid, its just that cataclysm, the biggest failure in this game, changed that. Agree on the server part, nobody needs 30 servers with 2000 active players, just merge all the low pop servers.

[Durandro]

The issue is there's too many people spread out across multiple servers. Blizzard either needs to merge servers or offer Free transfers. Would solve alot of issues

This is one of the few times I actually agree 100% with someone on MMO Champion.

Regardless of negative connotations from shrinking the number of servers, WoW really does have too many right now. It likely always has, if I'm honest.

The whole reason we had so many servers 'back in the day' was due to lag and hardware limitations. Most of those limitations are now either gone or are much less of a problem. So we can have high population servers and not really worry about it. The game is better with more people, and cross-realm servers don't solve that issue.

Merging servers, or at least giving free transfers from low-population servers, is the answer to many of the current 'community problems' we have.

1/ It makes recruitment easier. Needless to say, honestly.
2/ It might resurrect the pugging community. Right now its a case of 'take whoever we can get', and even then there's not enough on many servers to have a good 'list' of reliable people to call on.
3/ It'll populate higher level zones, increasing the chances of meeting people. People you can then hang around with perminantly and form guilds with.
4/ It'll improve server economies on the Auction House. Higher demand equals fairer prices, generally speaking.
5/ It'll improve the ability to farm herbs, ore or pets.

Cross-Realm Zones should be an option to activate. 100% sure on that. There's no downside at all to that, since enough people will want it to all be placed in a zone together and not bother anyone who doesn't want to join in. Being an MMO doesn't mean the few should suffer the desires of the many (even if the people who like CRZ are in the majority, which we have no solid information on). How pissed off would people be if when they tried to walk into a dungeon or raid to solo bosses are then forced into a Cross-Realm raid group? Extremely!

And with all that, the 25 man raid community will improve. Small incentives are all people need, if there are people available for it. Flat gear improvements are a poor idea, and will just lead to people becoming frustrated when they are forced into 10 man raids due to not having the people to do 'real raids'. Extra mounts and pets, new achievements and higher drop rates for legendary items should be enough, surely?

Oh, and LFR should be reduced to 10 man. 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 6 DPS. Which is exactly the same ratio required for regular dungeons. I don't understand Blizzard's comments about it 'increasing wait times' when the wait time for dungeons is currently quite reasonable. If they are worried about it so much, bump it up to 15 man and have 2 tanks, 3 healers and 10 DPS. Currently 25 man just doesn't seem to work well for LFR, in my experience.

[Deleted]

Well, but for me it feels more epic. Ofc WoW is still epic, if it wasnt I wouldnt play it anymore. And it's the real raid for me because since BC it has been THE raid, its just that cataclysm, the biggest failure in this game, changed that. Agree on the server part, nobody needs 30 servers with 2000 active players, just merge all the low pop servers.

Some low pop players like it quiet, and I'm not only talking about their Org/SW and Pandaria here.

[MoanaLisa]

Merging servers, or at least giving free transfers from low-population servers, is the answer to many of the current 'community problems' we have.

Having followed the CRZ debate from the start it's clear to me that enough people enjoy their small servers and wave the flag of realm pride that Blizzard is unlikely to ever merge servers. Not that they ever showed any sign of being amenable to the idea before MoP for that matter. So the suggestion that merging servers is the cure-all for everything is basically futile and besides the point. As for free transfers, if it really means that much to you, re-roll somewhere. That's a free transfer.

Cross-realm raiding/guilds on the current tier are much more likely to happen before they merge servers. They're a ways off as well if you believe the devs when they write about it but even with that, they're much closer than closing realms.

The realist in me wants to see a discussion that's based on actual possibilities rather than things that appear to have nearly a zero percent chance of happening.

[Revak]

I wish that Blizzard would create separate titles for 10/25's as well. I don't see why they don't; it could only increase the replay value for those seeking every title the game has to offer. Aesthetic differences could certainly help with establishing what kind of raider you are. I would agree that most 25 man raiders are doing so for whatever prestige they feel is associated with such a thing.

However; what I would really love to see is a return to the old model; back when 25 man and 10 man raids were completely unique raids. Wouldn't it be nice if every tier came out with a 25 man only raid and a 10 man only raid; with encounters tuned and tailored specifically for those formats. I sincerely believe that designing encounters between two separate mediums is hurting the creativity of the encounters.

I loved it when there were different raids that also required different amounts of people. LOVED IT! I wish they would do that again but they will not. Easy access raiding has been catered to for years now and that would make it a lot tougher on people to "see content".

Also, personally I loved 40 man raids and 25 man raids. But as a former GM, Officer, Recruiter, Raid Leader 25's were tough. I found raiding to be easier and you could carry people more, but just getting 25 consistently was tough. 10's are a lot more personal and tight-knit to me, but not nearly as fun as the big raids. Cata killed our guilds 25 man raiding which we held throughout TBC and WotLK (40 in vanilla) and we haven't even thought about 25 since.

[Jtbrig7390]

As for free transfers, if it really means that much to you, re-roll somewhere. That's a free transfer.

And personally that's is a BS answer.

I could get it if Transfer's was like 5$-10$ each and I would personally pay that but 25$ a transfer is bs so players are forced to stay on a dieing server.

Making a new toon is not a opinion because others and myself may have played a toon so long its apart of them so it would be easy'er to just outright quit wow then to start over on a new server.


Right now as it stands I got 2 main toons my paladin and Death Knight to transfer them would cost me 50$ that is 10$ more then the cost of MOP and that is also 3 months worth of WOW.

Many people liked Low pop servers cause it was easy'er to level professions and hunt rare things but now with CRZ both of those is just a major pain in the ass.

Its annoying as hell to have to fly to One ore over and over just to get it to spawn right in my server.

CRZ is a joke and its a band-aid to a major problem in WOW.

Blizzard knows how to fix this problem they just refuse to.

Merge servers its not hard they got the time/money to do it but refuse to because this is the all mighty wow and doing so mite show a sign in weakness.

I personally feel if any other MMO out there had the same amount of subs as WOW and was at this problem they would Merge servers because it is the right thing to do.

Blizzard has let a lot of things go to there head and keep making stupid choice's since Cata.