Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

I get no different feeling killing a boss for the first time in 10s than I did in 40s, 20s and 25s.

I love it either way. But as someone who has done the organising, recruiting, DKP etc for 25 man versus 10 there is no comparison.

I actually enjoy the game a lot more in 10 man if I am leading because it's a lot less extra shit I have to do. From my pov a 25 man raid is he same for me as a player but miles more effort for me as a person. "Cat herding" and a desk full of post it notes with absences, lateness, who doesn't get on with who etc simply isn't all that fun.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 02:13 PM ----------

I know, its weird, right?

I tried 10man.
But it just didn't feel right.
Yeah we wiped on Tsulong, and Lei Shi, Sha was bitchy, so it wasn't "roflstomp" ez mode.
Terrace seems to be nicely equally tuned unlike Will of the Emps which is a complete joke in 10man.

But still... standing there with 24 other people just feels different.

Can't really explain it.

Aye, personal preferences can be like that. Of course i'm not sure how wise it is to for you to extrapolate from your personal preferences to make a rule for all 2 million of wows raiders.

[MasterHamster]

I know, its weird, right?

I tried 10man.
But it just didn't feel right.
Yeah we wiped on Tsulong, and Lei Shi, Sha was bitchy, so it wasn't "roflstomp" ez mode.
Terrace seems to be nicely equally tuned unlike Will of the Emps which is a complete joke in 10man.

But still... standing there with 24 other people just feels different.

Can't really explain it.

And if that epic feeling isn't enough to keep interest, instead wishing for extra rewards despite the different raid sizes being arguably equal, then it's truly pointless.
Yup, 25m is dying, they have been ever since shared lockout and equal loot. Because players choose the way with the least hassle...

Last thing we need is Blizzard wasting time making unique sets and mounts for a mode that is inherently broken

[Granyala]

Have your guild offer free raiding mats and crafted gears to raiders. Give raiders additional gold for repairs per day. Pay raiders who show up with gold, mounts, pets, etc.. Blizzard should not be in the market of making people want to do 25s.

WTF is this.. I can't even.... /facepalm...

But I guess you had no interest in keeping 10ms in the HC scene.

Since I'm not hardcore, I couldn't care less about "who is in the scene". :<

Time to accept that the easiest route is the most popular, and always will be.
25ms survived with the incentative of being able to raid the same raid twice for even more epex, and better loot.
That is gone now.

Then Blizzard should just scrap 10s and 25s and input 15man to get it over with. Is that what you're saying?

Forcing people to your format because you like itnot because they like it themselves?

Incentivize != force....
oh wait. WOW community is incapable of that distinction.
Please disregard... <_<

[MasterHamster]

Since I'm not hardcore, I couldn't care less about "who is in the scene". :<

No worries, it's quite obvious already that you want to demand changes because you prefer 25m
The things that kept 25ms alive is the same reason 10ms was regarded as a joke until cata

Then Blizzard should just scrap 10s and 25s and input 15man to get it over with. Is that what you're saying?

Personally I'm perfectly fine with the way it is. If a guild truly wants to do 25ms, they can. But as I've said a few times now, if they need unique rewards just for doing it with more people rolling their face across the keyboard, then it won't hold forever.

[Beefhammer]

WTF is this.. I can't even.... /facepalm...

First of all it was in response to someone insinuating that Blizzard needs to do something to make people want to do 25s. Second, stop it. If you cannot see why I suggested why a guild would offer incentives to get people to raid when you all are crying about how 25s are dying and it is hard to recruit for 25s then there is no hope for you.

[jax]

It was not thousands upon thousands of posts saying it will kill 25s.

Actually it was thousands... and thousands. I personally authored 3 different threads on the official forums. (One when the change was announced, a second when the change was implemented, and a third after my 25 man raid guild had died and I was pissed because I was 100% correct in the first 2 and Blizz didnt listen.) Each of these reached the maximum post limit within days.

There were MANY MANY more by other people also (not including the posts here about it... as I remember it was a shit storm of epic proportions) stating the basics of the problem but in different ways and with different words.

So um ya... thousands if not 10s of thousands.

Most of them were 10s are not real raiding posts which offered nothing but QQ and no solutions.

The problem with generalising is that its always subject to your mind set... I dont remember reading more than 1 or 2 posts like that but I guess I am generalising too. I do know however that to say "most" is usually always wrong headed and grandiose to say the least.

No worries, it's quite obvious already that you want to demand changes because you prefer 25m

Sort of like how 10 man raiders demanded that the ilevels be the same? The achievs be the same? The lock outs be the same? Funny that the "demands" of the 10 mans out weigh the "demands" of the 25 mans...

I dont have a dog in this fight as I raid 25 man on week days and 10 man on a different toon on weekends so i like both... what I do love is watching and remembering the 10 mans freak out back in the day about the same stuff the 25s are freaking out about now and the 10 mans get on the pedistal and preach about how "unfair" it is...
/popcorn

[Granyala]

No worries, it's quite obvious already that you want to demand changes because you prefer 25m

I don't demand. I play the game. I merely comment on what Blizzard did/does. Big difference.
Would I prefer a solution to this problem that doesn't include the screwing over of 10s? Hell yeah.
Do I know one/Do I think it's even possible at this point? Nope.

Personally I'm perfectly fine with the way it is. If a guild truly wants to do 25ms, they can.

And thats where you are simply wrong. They can maybe on the super high pop realms. But on medium/low pop? Forget it. It's just a matter of time until my guild dies too and then I will be literally FORCED to go 10man. Or spend an ungodly amount of RL-Cash to transfer my characters...

You can't make people join your guild. They have to want it.

Second, stop it. If you cannot see why I suggested why a guild would offer incentives to get people to raid when you all are crying about how 25s are dying and it is hard to recruit for 25s then there is no hope for you.

Sorry but your idea is so ridiculously stupid and idiotic, that I just had to facepalm. Sure I'll buy gold from websites to be able to bribe people into my raid. LOL. Just... lol.

Please go and troll somewhere else?

[Deleted]

Incentivize != force....
oh wait. WOW community is incapable of that distinction.
Please disregard... <_<

Well 25man offers better loot distribution and drops/player. Now you get higher chance on TF weapons.
That is incentive and I'm completely fine with that.

However this didn't/doesn't work and honestly I don't think it will ever work because for most people raiding is less about the game as it is about the company.

To overcome that you have to stack too many 'incentivies' and hence it becomes forced.

[Ferocity]

It was not thousands upon thousands of posts saying it will kill 25s. It was more like a few hundred. Most of them were 10s are not real raiding posts which offered nothing but QQ and no solutions. Most of the threads were about not having better loot for the perceived harder difficulty Cata 5s would have, since the freshest memory was WotLK 25s actually being harder. Blizzard can listen to feed back all day long but when itis a bunch of people whining and crying it offers nothing. And honestly that is all it was. Just like it all is today.

There was one or two big threads with thousands of posts (among multiple smaller threads). Why people should offer some solution to problem, which didn't exist in first place? In general, they simply said "leave all as is, don't fix what isn't broken". Too bad that those forums are gone now, but there is no need to play with words, I am lazy to look through webarchives or various old forum mirrors, and I don't want to - most people know that it happened like I wrote.

Just accept it. Blizzard ignored all feedback concerning raid changes before Cata release. Just like recently they ignored all feedback about CRZ. They were told that they will kill 25-men by such change, and so they did it. It is better to not touch it now. If 25-men will suddenly become more attractive again, 10-men guilds will start to dissolve, but as WoW is not some utopia, not everyone will fit new 25-men (which require exactly same amount of tanks as 10-men and only twice as much healers), not everyone's PCs will endure, so more people will just leave, 10-men will be abandoned, but 25-men not really revived. And WoW isn't really new game where developers can make such deadly experiments.

[Deleted]

tbh, splitting the achievements would be a great start. Also realm first achievements.

Also, server merges would be great, its hard to keep a 25man guild active on dying servers. It forces you into 10mans most of all reasons imo.

This would probably be the fairest thing, I don't think taking mounts and other vanity stuff is fair...and I'm a 25 raider.

[bloaf]

Until Blizzard gets past their hang up of different lockouts and loot quality between 10man and 25man, and players stop whining about being forced to do something, nothing is going to change. 10man and 25man Raid groups are different. There are different dynamics, different logistics and there should be different rewards. Regardless if 10 or 25 are harder than each other, it's a different raid format and a different experience. The loot drops in 25man should be of higher quality/iLevel, it's a higher tier of raiding.

On the player side, there are many players who continue to claim that they would be forced to run 25man raids if the rewards were better than 10man. This is nonsense, no one is forcing you to do anything, it is your conscious choice as to how you want to play the game. You have the choice of raiding or not raiding, the choice of raiding in the 10man or 25man format. You have the choice of playing the game or not. You make a choice as to how you want to play and what parts of the game you wish to partake in. You make these choices based on whats important to you, gear, titles, mounts, pets, playing with friends, being the the top player, top guild, whatever. If it's important to you to have the best gear, then find a 25man raid. If it's important to you to have fun, enjoy the raid content, then raid 10man.

[Gilian]

No worries, it's quite obvious already that you want to demand changes because you prefer 25m
The things that kept 25ms alive is the same reason 10ms was regarded as a joke until cata



Personally I'm perfectly fine with the way it is. If a guild truly wants to do 25ms, they can. But as I've said a few times now, if they need unique rewards just for doing it with more people rolling their face across the keyboard, then it won't hold forever.

You do understand that it only gets harder and harder the less 25 man guilds there are? So in the end we do have a choice, no incentive and in some cases it is near impossible to realize. I really do not understand how this is good for WoW.

They are better off pissing people off once by just going with one raidsize instead of keeping pissing people of for years to come because they offer them a choice they don't support properly (be it either 10 man like in WotLK or 25 man now).

You can keep saying well it is fine because if you truly want to do 25 man you can do it but if 10 man doesn't drop any loot I can also say the same thing about 10 man...

[Beefhammer]

Actually it was thousands... and thousands. I personally authored 3 different threads on the official forums. (One when the change was announced, a second when the change was implemented, and a third after my 25 man raid guild had died and I was pissed because I was 100% correct in the first 2 and Blizz didnt listen.) Each of these reached the maximum post limit within days.

There were MANY MANY more by other people also (not including the posts here about it... as I remember it was a shit storm of epic proportions) stating the basics of the problem but in different ways and with different words.

So um ya... thousands if not 10s of thousands.




The problem with generalising is that its always subject to your mind set... I dont remember reading more than 1 or 2 posts like that but I guess I am generalising too. I do know however that to say "most" is usually always wrong headed and grandiose to say the least.



Sort of like how 10 man raiders demanded that the ilevels be the same? The achievs be the same? The lock outs be the same? Funny that the "demands" of the 10 mans out weigh the "demands" of the 25 mans...

I dont have a dog in this fight as I raid 25 man on week days and 10 man on a different toon on weekends so i like both... what I do love is watching and remembering the 10 mans freak out back in the day about the same stuff the 25s are freaking out about now and the 10 mans get on the pedistal and preach about how "unfair" it is...
/popcorn

We remember differently. I didn't create any threads then but posted regularly in a lot of them. An I recall them being a lot of garbage complaints just like the QQotM stuffs now on the official forums. Most of them non constructive. But with your third point there. That is pure revisionist history. 10 man guilds were not demanding any of those. Sure you had a few threads, but I never remembered them ever being taken seriously or gaining any momentum. The biggest complaint about the WotLK raiding situation was from 25s feeling burnt out by "having" to raid both lockouts each each week to "keep up" with the competition. 10s knew they had the easier content and knew why they had lesser gear. But the overwhelming voice back then were the 25s complaining about having to raid too much.

Blizzard listened to them and fixed it.

[Deleted]

Until Blizzard gets past their hang up of different lockouts and loot quality between 10man and 25man, and players stop whining about being forced to do something, nothing is going to change. 10man and 25man Raid groups are different. There are different dynamics, different logistics and there should be different rewards. Regardless if 10 or 25 are harder than each other, it's a different raid format and a different experience. The loot drops in 25man should be of higher quality/iLevel, it's a higher tier of raiding.

You can make the case the other way, easily - 25 mans are easier than 10s, currently. (Because LFR is a raid and is piss easy.) Tuning of the raid is entirely arbitary and up to blizzard, there is nothing in herently harder about 25 man, it's just been designed that way at some points in the games history. it's not a la of nature or anything.

On the player side, there are many players who continue to claim that they would be forced to run 25man raids if the rewards were better than 10man. This is nonsense, no one is forcing you to do anything, it is your conscious choice as to how you want to play the game. You have the choice of raiding or not raiding, the choice of raiding in the 10man or 25man format. You have the choice of playing the game or not. You make a choice as to how you want to play and what parts of the game you wish to partake in. You make these choices based on whats important to you, gear, titles, mounts, pets, playing with friends, being the the top player, top guild, whatever. If it's important to you to have the best gear, then find a 25man raid. If it's important to you to have fun, enjoy the raid content, then raid 10man.

Which is the same as saying that gear doesn't matter, so they may as well have the same ilvl.

[Nebria]

You can't make people join your guild. They have to want it.

do you know why people do not join your guild? question to everyone. does anybody knows why some regular player is not joining a 25man guild and prefers a 10man guild if the player is looking for a new guild? (except technical reasons)

[celinamuna]

Why ? If you want to raid 25 man you can, if you need "extra" benefits (on top of better gearing rate), mb 25 man raiding isn't for you ?

[Belize]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

I'f you're running Sha on those specs at 10 FPS there is something incredibly wrong with your computer. Also get a smaller screen: Bigger=need higher res= lag.

[Beefhammer]

There was one or two big threads with thousands of posts (among multiple smaller threads). Why people should offer some solution to problem, which didn't exist in first place? In general, they simply said "leave all as is, don't fix what isn't broken". Too bad that those forums are gone now, but there is no need to play with words, I am lazy to look through webarchives or various old forum mirrors, and I don't want to - most people know that it happened like I wrote.

Just accept it. Blizzard ignored all feedback concerning raid changes before Cata release. Just like recently they ignored all feedback about CRZ. They were told that they will kill 25-men by such change, and so they did it. It is better to not touch it now. If 25-men will suddenly become more attractive again, 10-men guilds will start to dissolve, but as WoW is not some utopia, not everyone will fit new 25-men (which require exactly same amount of tanks as 10-men and only twice as much healers), not everyone's PCs will endure, so more people will just leave, 10-men will be abandoned, but 25-men not really revived. And WoW isn't really new game where developers can make such deadly experiments.

My bad. I read that as thousands of threads.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 02:40 PM ----------

Until Blizzard gets past their hang up of different lockouts and loot quality between 10man and 25man, and players stop whining about being forced to do something, nothing is going to change. 10man and 25man Raid groups are different. There are different dynamics, different logistics and there should be different rewards. Regardless if 10 or 25 are harder than each other, it's a different raid format and a different experience. The loot drops in 25man should be of higher quality/iLevel, it's a higher tier of raiding.

On the player side, there are many players who continue to claim that they would be forced to run 25man raids if the rewards were better than 10man. This is nonsense, no one is forcing you to do anything, it is your conscious choice as to how you want to play the game. You have the choice of raiding or not raiding, the choice of raiding in the 10man or 25man format. You have the choice of playing the game or not. You make a choice as to how you want to play and what parts of the game you wish to partake in. You make these choices based on whats important to you, gear, titles, mounts, pets, playing with friends, being the the top player, top guild, whatever. If it's important to you to have the best gear, then find a 25man raid. If it's important to you to have fun, enjoy the raid content, then raid 10man.

Just like why Blizzard combined lockouts in response to the 25s claiming they were forced to run 10s back then.

[Gilian]

Sort of like how 10 man raiders demanded that the ilevels be the same? The achievs be the same? The lock outs be the same? Funny that the "demands" of the 10 mans out weigh the "demands" of the 25 mans...

I dont have a dog in this fight as I raid 25 man on week days and 10 man on a different toon on weekends so i like both... what I do love is watching and remembering the 10 mans freak out back in the day about the same stuff the 25s are freaking out about now and the 10 mans get on the pedistal and preach about how "unfair" it is...
/popcorn

It looks like most people just want what is best for them instead of discussing about what is best for the game. They ignore half of things that are being said and just go in circles about who deserves what, lol.

We are now back to what is harder, 25's or 10's?

[soulkeeperx]

I agree with the 10/25 realm firsts. A 25m guild working on a last-tier boss can have a 10m steal the realm first, but you might say the 10 man was more skilled, BUT, for arguments sake, lets say the 10m version was easier than the 25m counter-part, also the 10m guild was able to raid many extra hours on off-nights where the 25m couldn't because too many people had other obligations...a 10/25 realm first split would be amazing. Of course, a 25 guild could steal both...