Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Ssith]

i'm going to have to go into the "shoulda axed it and made them all 15-mans" camp.

[Daerio]

Obviously Blizzard wouldn't actually make 5 mans and scenarios drop raid gear, but if human nature plays true and most of your raiding pool drops away to the path of least resistance, you want to keep doing raids and they don't, then that tells you something:

Those people didn't enjoy doing what you enjoy doing as much as you think they do. That also means your fun is predicated on them doing something they see as a chore... Which is bad.

If they made 5 man raids, and those raids had the exact same rewards, and they shared the same lockouts - 10 mans would die. That should be obvious.

Does that really mean people would rather do 5 mans than 10 mans? In my mind, no. You're drawing conclusions that aren't supported. The same ones people are making about 10s vs 25s.

[spectrefax]

If they made 5 man raids, and those raids had the exact same rewards, and they shared the same lockouts - 10 mans would die. That should be obvious.

Pretty much this, people are lazy and will always take the path to the easiest gear, regardless of how much they enjoy it. Just look at the dailies grind. People bitch non-stop about them, yet almost everyone does them anyway.

[Fenixdown]

Honestly, gear will draw more people, but ONLY if they can't get it in 10-man. However, the Wrath design was incredibly flawed. The way loot should be done (and should have been done in Wrath) is that the items themselves should be identical, but the item level should be higher in 25-man.

That said, yes, there should be something extra in 25-mans, if not in terms of gearing then definitely in terms of cosmetics. There's far more people out there who would make the switch back to 25's if the reward was equal to the risks. However, 10-man is the path of least resistance, both in difficulty and logistics. Lazy raid leaders are lazy, so they take the easy way out. Give them more reason to be less lazy and they'll be less lazy, or they'll simply lose members of their raid team who want the higher prestige and greater reward for the risks.

It's deserved for the leaders, and even for the members, of 25-man guilds. They're putting in more effort and certainly dealing with more difficulty (nine of sixteen bosses involve a mechanic that requires spacing...guess which nine bosses are easier on 10-man, folks), they should be getting greater reward. Simply putting the same reward in 10-man but "at a slightly lower drop rate" isn't going to get anyone to look at 10-mans as exactly what they should be...inferior. It's just going to keep them on the road to easy street like the sheeple they are.

[Klingers]

If they made 5 man raids, and those raids had the exact same rewards, and they shared the same lockouts - 10 mans would die. That should be obvious.

Does that really mean people would rather do 5 mans than 10 mans? In my mind, no. You're drawing conclusions that aren't supported. The same ones people are making about 10s vs 25s.

You're completely missing my point here. If they made 5 man raids then maybe 10-mans would die. But a 5-man dungeon run or a 3-man scenario offer a different type of content to a raid... which is what some people were using as comparison points for gear drops.

I didn't actually say people would rather do 5-mans than 10-mans. The point I am trying to get across is that completely divorced from the group size you're talking about, if you have large swathes of those people doing something easier for that gear and not feeling compelled enough to do the larger version for either challenge or fun, then maybe something more deeply ingrained is wrong with your content model.

It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. People like showing off, and they like getting the gear, but if the fun they get is 100% in the standing around Stormwind and 0% in the camaraderie of a large group encounter, then yes. Larger versions deserve to die or support themselves.

[Daerio]

You're completely missing my point here. If they made 5 man raids then maybe 10-mans would die. But a 5-man dungeon run or a 3-man scenario offer a different type of content to a raid... which is what some people were using as comparison points for gear drops.

I didn't actually say people would rather do 5-mans than 10-mans. The point I am trying to get across is that completely divorced from the group size you're talking about, if you have large swathes of those people doing something easier for that gear and not feeling compelled enough to do the larger version for either challenge or fun, then maybe something more deeply ingrained is wrong with your content model.

It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. People like showing off, and they like getting the gear, but if the fun they get is 100% in the standing around Stormwind and 0% in the camaraderie of a large group encounter, then yes. Larger versions deserve to die or support themselves.

Underlined portion for reference. If that's your opinion, and if Blizzard made 5 man raids as I suggested, then 10s would die out and "not support themselves." That's the point. It wouldn't be because, "More people want to do 5s, obviously!"

I don't know what the point in you mentioning the current scenarios vs raid content is - that seems irrelevant. If the 5 man content and 10 man content dropped the same loot, and shared the same lockout, people would do 5s.

I have more fun doing 25s than 10s, but it's no longer feasible for me to do them. If my choice is to do 10s or quit, (which it is) I'll probably end up quitting. Which is fine for me, there's other games out there for me - and I'm not the only one in the same situation. If you follow some of the numbers I've seen, we're talking about ~30%+ of the current wow population. I think that's a hit Blizzard would take notice of.

[Deleted]

The old way was better in my opinion. The numbers showed it. The amount of people taking part in either 25 or 10 were close. To say that its better now is ignorant at best.

25man wasn't even nearly as laggy during WotLK than it is now. Sometime early in Cata they changed something that completely ruined the CPU efficiency in raids.
They need to revert that change to get more people back into 25man.

[Raegwyn]

easy solution? keep item upgrade. let 1/2 upgraded items drop in 25 man and 0/2 upgraded items drop from 10 man and make sure only the best 10 man groups who clear heroic in the first 2 ids will get enough time before new content to upgrade their whole BiS gear 2/2 not fully hardcore 10 man grps wont be able to get best possible gear in 10 man before new content is released. not fully hardcore 25 man guilds will.

[spectrefax]

You're completely missing my point here. If they made 5 man raids then maybe 10-mans would die. But a 5-man dungeon run or a 3-man scenario offer a different type of content to a raid... which is what some people were using as comparison points for gear drops.

I didn't actually say people would rather do 5-mans than 10-mans. The point I am trying to get across is that completely divorced from the group size you're talking about, if you have large swathes of those people doing something easier for that gear and not feeling compelled enough to do the larger version for either challenge or fun, then maybe something more deeply ingrained is wrong with your content model.

It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. People like showing off, and they like getting the gear, but if the fun they get is 100% in the standing around Stormwind and 0% in the camaraderie of a large group encounter, then yes. Larger versions deserve to die or support themselves.

I can agree with what you're saying. It's a good point.

But, the problem with MMOs is that the "standing around and looking awesome because you have the best stuff" is a pretty big part of the genre. Always has been.

If Blizzard made a 100 man raid and it dropped the best gear in the game, the vast majority of the raiding population would get in line to do that raid. Has little to do with enjoyment or not, people want the best stuff and will do whatever is easiest to obtain it.

If LFR dropped the same stuff as 10/25, you'd see both formats die, not because people don't enjoy 10/25s, because everyone is doing them right now, but because it's less managerial work. Which, in a way, proves your point, people will flock to whatever requires less "work" *(recruitment, organizing, etc) because they don't find it fun.

[Scot]

Blizzard is killing raiding because they want it to be accessible. And players encouraged it because they feel like they need to be able to see all of the content if they want, even if they only have a few hours a week to play. Part of what made raiding fun was that it was somewhat exclusive. You had to put in more time if you wanted to raid. You had to be serious about it and actually show up because 24 other people are counting on you.

I think the real problem here is the issue that people feel that they need to see all the content or else the game is bad. That's not true and that's not always how players felt. Back in BC I never got past the easy bosses in BT or Hyjal until the very end when it was puggable. But I had fun because SSC and TK were fun and challenging. I was in one of those middle of the road guilds that was progressing at its own rate far behind the server leaders. But I never thought that I needed to see Illidan. I didn't even want to get to Illidan just so I could "see the content" either. It was the prestige and accomplishment that progressing that far brought with it that I really wanted.

I personally, and I'm sure many older players will feel te same way, will never see 10 mans as real raids. Its just too small. Its just 2 parties combined. You can't even fit all the classes in a 10 man. And because there are 10s and 25s of every raid and they even drop the same loot, it diminishes the value of a 25 man raid.

Its not like any of this matters though. I'm sure Blizzard will just keep homogenizing in the name of class balance and swinging back and forth between better 25 man gear and the same in both sizes.

[Daerio]

I think the real problem here is the issue that people feel that they need to see all the content or else the game is bad. That's not true and that's not always how players felt. Back in BC I never got past the easy bosses in BT or Hyjal until the very end when it was puggable. But I had fun because SSC and TK were fun and challenging. I was in one of those middle of the road guilds that was progressing at its own rate far behind the server leaders. But I never thought that I needed to see Illidan. I didn't even want to get to Illidan just so I could "see the content" either. It was the prestige and accomplishment that progressing that far brought with it that I really wanted.

I also want to voice this as well. I remember back in Vanilla, BC when there were guilds around still progressing through MC / Kara / Gruul's (whatever) even though new content (Sunwell, BT, Naxx) was out. New content didn't automatically make old content obsolete.

I don't know why that was lost in WoTLK, but it suddenly became, "Only the newest content matters." That was a pretty big loss, I think. Off topic, though.

[Valkryx]

Unfortunately I think Blizz is past the point of no return with 25 mans. I'm in the category of preferring 25's because of the epicness and having more raid variety but I've been raiding 10's for a while now simply because its easier and less of a headache with recruiting, skill levels, etc. But since 10's and 25's have been equal for so long you can't simply go back to making 25's straight up superior in terms of gear or you piss off the vast majority of the playerbase who raids 10's. Making raids 15 man would do the same although I personally like the idea. Honestly the best model was back in Wrath.....you had seperate lockouts but 10 man loot was inferior and 10 mans were easier. Its true that clearing 2 lockouts a week is a downside but 10 mans were pretty casual so its not like it was a big chore. With the current model 25 mans dying was inevitable....either way it will take a radical change for people to go back to 25's. Blizz just has to figure out which will piss of the playerbase the least -_-

some of you guys really need to take off thos ruby shades, the 10 mans were not easier, what made them seem so easy back in wrath was the fact 25 man got facerolled and you had gear from 25man. the wrath set up was messed up especially by the time ICC came out.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 07:26 AM ----------

The old way was better in my opinion. The numbers showed it. The amount of people taking part in either 25 or 10 were close. To say that its better now is ignorant at best.

the numbers didn't show anything of the sort if you were in a serious 25 man guild ( like i was <Late night mafia> terenas/kilrogg cloud/valkryx holy/ret paladin) you had to run both every week, a matter of fact due to this plus the guilds that only had enough to run 10s you would see there were more 10 mans than 25s ran every week, especially when icc came about you would start 25 get a bit of gear to go run 10 to get an edge to finish 25 to than have an edge to do 10 man heroic to than have an edge to go do 25man heroic... it was the 25man guilds that complained and caused the change. NOT the 10mans whining like some of you guys keep trying to claim.

P.S. i have no problem with 25man raids, i personally don't want to return to them, But you guys need to stop, all you are doing is crying and throwing fits at blizzard wanting them to force players to feel they need to run 25s again, there already is incentives to run 25s, most people just don't care and don't want to run them, instead of bitching at blizzard and asking them to force others back in you should be suggesting ways to blizzard for easier ways to get like minded people for 25s together... this is were i think need to make a server entitled for 25s and work with the guilds on transfers, or remove the current raid block from Xrealm raiding, at end of cata there were many 25man groups for DS and firelands on openraids.us

[Daerio]

the numbers didn't show anything of the sort if you were in a serious 25 man guild ( like i was <Late night mafia> terenas/kilrogg cloud/valkryx holy/ret paladin) you had to run both every week, a matter of fact due to this plus the guilds that only had enough to run 10s you would see there were more 10 mans than 25s ran every week, especially when icc came about you would start 25 get a bit of gear to go run 10 to get an edge to finish 25 to than have an edge to do 10 man heroic to than have an edge to go do 25man heroic... it was the 25man guilds that complained and caused the change. NOT the 10mans whining like some of you guys keep trying to claim.

So you think it was "the 25man guilds" that thought it was a good idea to switch 10 mans to give equal loot. You have some pretty strange ideas there, friend.

[Klingers]

Underlined portion for reference. If that's your opinion, and if Blizzard made 5 man raids as I suggested, then 10s would die out and "not support themselves." That's the point. It wouldn't be because, "More people want to do 5s, obviously!"

I don't know what the point in you mentioning the current scenarios vs raid content is - that seems irrelevant. If the 5 man content and 10 man content dropped the same loot, and shared the same lockout, people would do 5s.

I have more fun doing 25s than 10s, but it's no longer feasible for me to do them. If my choice is to do 10s or quit, (which it is) I'll probably end up quitting. Which is fine for me, there's other games out there for me - and I'm not the only one in the same situation. If you follow some of the numbers I've seen, we're talking about ~30%+ of the current wow population. I think that's a hit Blizzard would take notice of.

The difference is, is a majority of people didn't want to do 10-mans in favour of 5-mans, I personally would have no problem with the responsibility to go out myself and find a 10-man group. If it mattered to me enough that I didn't want to lose 10-mans, I would either look for a new group, transfer servers or if necessary start my own group and put in the logistical effort required. If I didn't, again, it's on me.

Example: I love my car. It's a major part of my identity. I keep it maintained and in good knick. I don't just expect it to keep magically running all the time, and I also don't expect people to give me car parts for free.

Just like a few other replies to my post, you've missed the crux of mine: You say you have more fun doing 25s than 10s, but it's no longer feasible for you to do them. I ask you this: How is that my problem? How is that the problem of other people who prefer 10s? And why, should they at some point in the future, have to go back to being second class citizens so they can be cajoled and corralled back into doing content you want to make you happy? Seriously, I'm asking. It's a legitimate question.

You underlined that last sentence and completely missed the point of it: Take some personal responsibility. Find or form a guild. Be prepared to move servers. Make some new raider friends. When I say large raids need to support themselves, I mean the players need to support the format. Those of us with an alternate raiding preference shouldn't be penalised or made to feel less important so we'll come crawling back to 25-mans. It's that simple.

[Daerio]

The difference is, is a majority of people didn't want to do 10-mans in favour of 5-mans, I personally would have no problem with the responsibility to go out myself and find a 10-man group. If it mattered to me enough that I didn't want to lose 10-mans, I would either look for a new group, transfer servers or if necessary start my own group and put in the logistical effort required. If I didn't, again, it's on me.

Example: I love my car. It's a major part of my identity. I keep it maintained and in good knick. I don't just expect it to keep magically running all the time, and I also don't expect people to give me car parts for free.

Just like a few other replies to my post, you've missed the crux of mine: You say you have more fun doing 25s than 10s, but it's no longer feasible for you to do them. I ask you this: How is that my problem? How is that the problem of other people who prefer 10s? And why, should they at some point in the future, have to go back to being second class citizens so they can be cajoled and corralled back into doing content you want to make you happy? Seriously, I'm asking. It's a legitimate question.

You underlined that last sentence and completely missed the point of it. Take some personal responsibility. Find or form a guild. Be prepared to move servers. Make some new friends. When I say large raids need to support themselves, I mean the players need to support the format. Those of us with an alternate raiding preference shouldn't be penalised or made to feel less important so we'll come crawling back to 25-mans. It's that simple.

It's not feasible for me to continue trying to get ~25+ other people to also pay for server transfers to "try out" my brand new guild. There's this impression that you think it's easy to just build a new 25 man guild out of nothing because I want to. It isn't. I've tried. I know you haven't. Your car also doesn't rely on 24+ other people to function.

You think that if 10 mans died out in favor of 5 mans, "Well, I'll just start my own and do it myself!" - this is incorrect. You'd be asking people to give up their easier 5 man groups in favor of your more-difficult-to-manage 10 man. You'd be asking people to server transfer to "give your guild a chance" to see if it fits. You'd be asking people to work around each others' schedules and missed appearances; random power and internet outages, lag, and everything else that entails dealing with being in a group with 2x as many people. It's literally impossible to start a brand new 25 man semi-hardcore guild at this point.

As others have said, there are a lot of criteria for joining a guild and finding a 'good fit.' It entails A) Finding appropriate raid times that work for all ~30 people on the roster - B) Finding a group of like-minded people when it comes to guild rules and what progression should look like - C) Fitting in with that group on a social level - and many more. Needing to get 3x more people together just based on those three criteria on a single, specific server is very difficult on its own.

Your answer equates to, "Well, if you wanted it you'd just do it yourself" - which is a typical response from people in your position, but that doesn't make it accurate, true, or feasible. I certainly don't see you actually doing anything of the sort, just talking. Please though, if you do have something new to add, feel free.

[loki504]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

i5? what model number? i5 also got not so great models.
what mobo do you use? can it use pci-e 3.0?
what reselution are you playing? because if you use 3x monitor setup then you need to go to 3x sli/crossfire atleast.

also you could just lower your graphics when goes 25m.
but my i3 3220 with 4 gig ram and radeon 4850 runs sha 40m fine on high graphics at 1680x1050.

so either your lieing or you should let some1 check your computer. because your config sucks as hell

[Klingers]

It's not feasible for me to continue trying to get ~25+ other people to also pay for server transfers to "try out" my brand new guild. There's this impression that you think it's easy to just build a new 25 man guild out of nothing because I want to. It isn't. I've tried. I know you haven't. Your car also doesn't rely on 24+ other people to function.

You think that if 10 mans died out in favor of 5 mans, "Well, I'll just start my own and do it myself!" - this is incorrect. You'd be asking people to give up their easier 5 man groups in favor of your more-difficult-to-manage 10 man. You'd be asking people to server transfer to "give your guild a chance" to see if it fits. You'd be asking people to work around each others' schedules and missed appearances; random power and internet outages, lag, and everything else that entails dealing with being in a group with 2x as many people. It's literally impossible to start a brand new 25 man semi-hardcore guild at this point.

As others have said, there are a lot of criteria for joining a guild and finding a 'good fit.' It entails A) Finding appropriate raid times that work for all ~30 people on the roster - B) Finding a group of like-minded people when it comes to guild rules and what progression should look like - C) Fitting in with that group on a social level - and many more. Needing to get 3x more people together just based on those three criteria on a single, specific server is very difficult on its own.

Your answer equates to, "Well, if you wanted it you'd just do it yourself" - which is a typical response from people in your position, but that doesn't make it accurate, true, or feasible. I certainly don't see you actually doing anything of the sort, just talking. Please though, if you do have something new to add, feel free.

We're both being broken records here, because while I'm repeating the same thing, all your posts also are carrying this undercurrent of self-entitlement. "It's hard forming a 25 man group. Other people should do it for me. Other people should join my 25 man group regardless of whether they want to or not."

I know I'm sounding a bit blunt and uncaring here, but it's a fairly cut-and-dry question you failed to answer: Why is this my problem? Why is this the problem of 10-man raiders? We're perfectly happy. You still haven't given a single clear and concise reason as to why people that prefer 10-mans should have to go back to doing what they don't want to do.

I'd also point out the other side of this here: Even if 5-mans became the new default and the 10-man playerbase dropped off, I'd still only have to find 9 other people for a night. Not 24. Perfectly manageable.

See, this is the beauty and the curse of the internet. We interact with strangers all day, but don't owe strangers the same respect and time we owe good friends. Online friends are something that come about through time spent playing together, but a tight-knit 25 man is a hard ask. I'm sure they still to this day exist... But those people you want to step up to fill your attrition? They're strangers. You've got to earn their time commitment.

[Daerio]

I'd also point out the other side of this here: Even if 5-mans became the new default and the 10-man playerbase dropped off, I'd still only have to find 9 other people for a night. Not 24. Perfectly manageable.

Or more likely, you'd choose the easier way out, and raid 5 mans. Like you've already done.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 09:15 AM ----------

I know I'm sounding a bit blunt and uncaring here, but it's a fairly cut-and-dry question you failed to answer: Why is this my problem?

I never said it was "your" problem, it's Blizzard's problem, and it doesn't look like they're going to fix. I expect you to continue with your, "Nyah nyah, I raid 10 man and I'm better than you."

Blizzard on the other hand has a financial incentive to fix it. Unfortunately, their current idea will not fix it. Their next one probably won't either. Maybe 4 or 5 solutions down the road, either 25 mans will be completely gone (along with some subscribers) or they'll do something that will actually fix it.

[Klingers]

I never said it was "your" problem, it's Blizzard's problem, that it doesn't look like they're going to fix. I expect you to continue with your, "Nyah nyah, I raid 10 man and I'm better than you."

Blizzard on the other hand has a financial incentive to fix it. Unfortunately, their current idea will not fix it. Their next one probably won't either. Maybe 4 or 5 solutions down the road, either 25 mans will be completely gone (along with some subscribers) or they'll do something that will actually fix it.

Sorry you feel that way. There's no "nyah nyah". I wasn't trying to rub it in your face, just ask why there's an expectation that 10-man players need to change for 25-man players' sake.

As for the financial incentive, it can't be as much as you think. We can throw around lots of numbers but the fact is 25 mans are dwindling, but there's still 10 million-odd players subscribing and not going anywhere.

[Deleted]

You think that if 10 mans died out in favor of 5 mans, "Well, I'll just start my own and do it myself!" - this is incorrect. You'd be asking people to give up their easier 5 man groups in favor of your more-difficult-to-manage 10 man. You'd be asking people to server transfer to "give your guild a chance" to see if it fits. You'd be asking people to work around each others' schedules and missed appearances; random power and internet outages, lag, and everything else that entails dealing with being in a group with 2x as many people. It's literally impossible to start a brand new 25 man semi-hardcore guild at this point.

As others have said, there are a lot of criteria for joining a guild and finding a 'good fit.' It entails A) Finding appropriate raid times that work for all ~30 people on the roster - B) Finding a group of like-minded people when it comes to guild rules and what progression should look like - C) Fitting in with that group on a social level - and many more. Needing to get 3x more people together just based on those three criteria on a single, specific server is very difficult on its own.

It's both wonderful and strange, how these terrible terrible problems go away when 25's get two or three points higher ilvl. Right?