Hows Sub (PvE) on the PTR?

[Verain]

I'm aware of the buff... but much of Sub's success will factor on the new fights in the next patch. If they are all AoE fights, Sub will perform horribly. If they are all single-target, Sub will perform better. Mut might (?) perform better in a single target fight than Sub, but Sub will be closer in terms of overall damage/dps if the fight isn't AoE / Cleave intensive.

Sub does NOT have "horrible" aoe right now. Tempest is quite respectable as sub.

---------- Post added 2013-02-03 at 12:21 AM ----------

Please, name me one T14 encounter where sub performs half as good compared to assa or combat.

Wait, are you claiming sub is 50% below, say, mutilate? That's delusional.

[Mazius]

Wait, are you claiming sub is 50% below, say, mutilate? That's delusional.

He said exactly opposite, actually.

[Sesshou]

Shitty.

...

From what you've seen so far, which spec overall do you think will fair the best?

[RemJay24]

Shitty.

Well that is... poopy.

[D3athsting]

Please, name me one T14 encounter where sub performs half as good compared to assa or combat.

I'd say heroic empress by looking at your progress and at your guild sitting you for this encounter

[Maelstrom51]

From what you've seen so far, which spec overall do you think will fair the best?

With the new set bonuses, my money would be on Assassination. The four piece will be frustrating for combat, since either you don't use both cooldowns at once, or you use them both at once but energy cap like mad. Not to mention that Assassination will be gaining quite a bit from the two piece, where combat won't gain much at all.

[Ryme]

When you gonna progreess on Sha HC, please spec into high mastery sub and may be share logs with us, please please?

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to use sub on that fight, really. Could be a fun test, but since we're we haven't got to sha heroic yet, I think I'd have a hard time justifying the spec for a progression pull. Assassination makes far more sense.

[Deleted]

Still can't understand why we are the only pure dps who hasn't 3 viable dps specs for every encounter, i mean hunter mage lock can choose between three specs for every fight (though there will always be a spec that performs better than others), rogue has 2 and half dps specs for raiding, very unfair...

Well someone mentioned the word ''Hunter'' so I'm allowed to post now.

Marksmanship is in such a bad state at the moment that you really can't count that one in. You are much better off bringing a Subtlety Rogue. On a ranged fight. With half the Hunter's item level. With arms tied behind it's back. On Fire. With a cat infront of the screen.

If you want to argue Rogues have 2 and a half specs, Hunters currently have 2.

Should we take this to mean there'll be more encounters where you find yourself in front often, or really frequent target swaps, come 5.2?

Just looking at the tested fights at the moment it seems like there aren't many single target fights. The few fights who are, suffer from not being able to stand behind the boss for long periods of time. I'm predicting multi-dotters having a good time next tier because of the sheer amount of spread out adds on most fights. I think it'll be a Combat mainspec with Assassination offspec for certain fights much like it's currently Assassination with a Combat offspec for certain fights.

But this is just a prediction based on current PTR testing.

[Carp The Fish]

Just looking at the tested fights at the moment it seems like there aren't many single target fights. The few fights who are, suffer from not being able to stand behind the boss for long periods of time. I'm predicting multi-dotters having a good time next tier because of the sheer amount of spread out adds on most fights. I think it'll be a Combat mainspec with Assassination offspec for certain fights much like it's currently Assassination with a Combat offspec for certain fights.

But this is just a prediction based on current PTR testing.

Good, then we'll have a reason to nitpick the crap out of "2.6 vs 1.8 off-hand" again. I hope it's fist/mace, that'd mean we might actually get to use some cool transmogs.

[Kael]

Well someone mentioned the word ''Hunter'' so I'm allowed to post now.

...

Just looking at the tested fights at the moment it seems like there aren't many single target fights. The few fights who are, suffer from not being able to stand behind the boss for long periods of time. I'm predicting multi-dotters having a good time next tier because of the sheer amount of spread out adds on most fights. I think it'll be a Combat mainspec with Assassination offspec for certain fights much like it's currently Assassination with a Combat offspec for certain fights.

But this is just a prediction based on current PTR testing.

/glee @ multi-dotting. You can always post when it's relevant Bovan, you silly dog. Fights don't seem likely to change massively from the PTR to live, so I think that's probably a fair way to look at it and a real kick on Sub. We'll see in time though eh?

[Deleted]

/glee @ multi-dotting. You can always post when it's relevant Bovan, you silly dog. Fights don't seem likely to change massively from the PTR to live, so I think that's probably a fair way to look at it and a real kick on Sub. We'll see in time though eh?

Hah, I've been way out of the loop with Rogues these days.
But you're right about fights on the PTR usually not changing much compared to live, so honestly I would prepare to shelf the Subtlety spec. But who knows maybe for some sort of utility reason Subtlety will shine at certain fights. Besides they said they didn't start PvE tuning yet. maybe Subtlety will be buffed so much that not being able to Backstab (often) won't hurt DPS as much as it does currently.

Good, then we'll have a reason to nitpick the crap out of "2.6 vs 1.8 off-hand" again. I hope it's fist/mace, that'd mean we might actually get to use some cool transmogs.

Ugh maces? Really not a fan of those.
You are entitled to your own opinion unless your opinion doesn't match mine, so no maces allowed.

[RemJay24]

Besides they said they didn't start PvE tuning yet. maybe Subtlety will be buffed so much that not being able to Backstab (often) won't hurt DPS as much as it does currently.

When did Blizz say they haven't started PvE tuning for Sub? Sounds promising if true.

[Deleted]

When did Blizz say they haven't started PvE tuning for Sub? Sounds promising if true.

You've taken part of what I said and added something completely different to it. They didn't start PvE tuning in general, not just for Subtlety. I merely said that there is hope for Subtlety.

Hold on let me try to dig up the blue post.

EDIT:
I'll update this post some other time when I find it. Just did a search through the PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues topic for the word ''PvE'' and couldn't find it. But they said something in the lines of ''We haven't started PvE tuning yet'' and it wasn't just that post about Shadow priests. I thought it was a blue post although it may have been a twitter response.

It should be somewhere on the Hunter forums as well.

[Carp The Fish]

They didn't start PvE tuning in general, not just for Subtlety. I merely said that there is hope for Subtlety.

Hold on let me try to dig up the blue post.

GC, it is obvious that the nerf to Mindspike glyph is a loss on dps even if you are just standing and doing damage.


This is a legit PvE nerf, but a very, very small one and as I said, we haven't made any PvE numbers adjustments to anyone yet. This one is easy to fix without PvP risk and it makes a glyph less mandatory for its DPS benefits.

You are entitled to your own opinion unless your opinion doesn't match mine, so no maces allowed.

You're forgetting that maces are apart of the axes/swords/maces transmog category they're adding in 5.2.

[Deleted]

Don't think that was the post, although that sounds plausible as well. Regardless I can't seem to find the post I was talking about anywhere.

You're forgetting that maces are apart of the axes/swords/maces transmog category they're adding in 5.2.

*Covers ears and sings loudly*

[D3athsting]

Well someone mentioned the word ''Hunter'' so I'm allowed to post now.

Marksmanship is in such a bad state at the moment that you really can't count that one in. You are much better off bringing a Subtlety Rogue. On a ranged fight. With half the Hunter's item level. With arms tied behind it's back. On Fire. With a cat infront of the screen.

If you want to argue Rogues have 2 and a half specs, Hunters currently have 2.

I have a hunter alt so i know MM is really bad now but it's only a matter of numbers that blizz is going to fix next patch, same happened for combat being broken for the whole first cata tier then they brought it in line with assa by tuning numbers, on the other hand sub's problem are not the numbers that could be almost on par with other specs but the horrible rotation with SV making target switching a pain the a**, short snd duration (no glyph anymore) and bstab hitting for 20k and forcing you to stay behind the target and we all know it, it's not always possible/easy so 5.2 won't help that much to have more pve sub rogues


P.s.: i hope they bring MM to cata levels coz is very engaging and much more fun than BM (boring) and surv

[Deleted]

I have a hunter alt so i know MM is really bad now but it's only a matter of numbers that blizz is going to fix next patch, same happened for combat being broken for the whole first cata tier then they brought it in line with assa by tuning numbers, on the other hand sub's problem are not the numbers that could be almost on par with other specs but the horrible rotation with SV making target switching a pain the a**, short snd duration (no glyph anymore) and bstab hitting for 20k and forcing you to stay behind the target and we all know it, it's not always possible/easy so 5.2 won't help that much to have more pve sub rogues


P.s.: i hope they bring MM to cata levels coz is very engaging and much more fun than BM (boring) and surv

I don't really agree. Just because target switching isn't as easy as it was in Cataclysm I don't see why that suddenly makes the spec broken beyond repair. If damage gets buffed to a point where it outdamages Assassination and Combat on single targets people will play it on single target fights. While I'm not a fan of the positional requirement on Backstab I don't think this is the one and only thing that makes the spec unplayable. I believe Sessou (forgive me if i spelled your name incorrectly) even played Subtlety on Ultraxion in Dragon Soul. If the numbers are tweaked correctly the spec is going to be played.

Off-topic but I don't find Beast Mastery boring to be honest. Marksmanship isn't very engaging because the rotation is completely fixed in place. The reason Marksmanship has haste breakpoints isn't for extra dot ticks or anything, it's because there are only so many filler spells you can fit into a cycle. I prefer Marksmanship over Survival but it's not exactly a ''free'' spec. You either do said rotation or you do it wrong, while as Survival or Beast mastery you are constantly filling fillers of your choice in until your important things are off cooldown.

[Sesshou]

To be fair though, that wasn't for a progression kill and I only tried it after I saw Ahdehl do it and was like 'omg that works... definitely doing that now.' But yeah it was not only a fight where you couldn't backstab, but there was no way whatsoever to apply find weakness without trying to coordinate a life grip. I was easily top dps in my raid and even comparing across classes or to the other specs was pulling good numbers. So yeah, as you say, it is clearly a problem fixable with adjustments to numbers.

Responding to what Deathsting said, the rotation is not horrible. Cooldowns aside, it is virtually identical to combat. Target swapping is not a pain, you can either redirect a rupture or just use a CT (even 1pt CT lasts full duration which is plenty to kill something like adds on elegon). I would say sub's burst on switch without cd's is actually higher than assassination based on my experience using both on Elegon.

For the SnD duration part, some one refresh my memory, but did we have imp SnD as sub in cata? I only remember having that as combat and then as sub you just glyphed it. If that is correct, we actually have a longer SnD as sub now than we did in cata.

[Deleted]

For the SnD duration part, some one refresh my memory, but did we have imp SnD as sub in cata? I only remember having that as combat and then as sub you just glyphed it. If that is correct, we actually have a longer SnD as sub now than we did in cata.

Just went through some of my old screenshots and for my Spine heroic spec I didn't spec the talent but I did have the glyph. Don't ask me about the numbers though, as I honestly don't remember what the talents and glyphs added exactly. I use screenshots to remember how my glyphs, talents and setups looked for certain fights so this is how I remember what I had at the time. I could post the screenshots but I was playing in some weird aspect ratio which is a little embarrassing.

[Sesshou]

I'm pretty sure we didn't take it because we had to get lethality and some stuff over in assassination and the only thing we took in combat were hit talents. Imp Snd (which is baseline now) at 5cp was a lot more than the glyph.