People's fascination with MOBA games

[Deleted]

He's right. Compared to Starcraft or even Quake 3, MOBAs are a joke in mechanical skill unless you play Protoss

Fixt for your convenience

In SC2, you manage an entire army of multiple control groups filled with multiple unit types that each have their own abilities. A typical Protoss spell-caster army for example can have stalkers (blink), high templar (storm, feedback, archon), MSC (time warp, recall), sentries (guardian shield, force fields). You may also have Oracles and Voidrays in the mix. While using these abilities you are also positioning your army correctly, ensuring that the melee units are in front, colossus in the back and not being sniped, templars are not balled with the army and your observers managed properly. You also manage your macro (the harder part) as well in the middle of a big battle or you lose the game and react according to what strategies and builds your opponent employs.

I dunno about you but I played SC2 to at least plat but Meepo is still more of a bitch to play at a basic level than Protoss deathball at plat.

because there is no single skill feedback or recognition besides last hitting and skill-shots.

Did you ever even play DotA, dude.
Have you heard of YajirobefromDC
His mechanical skill dwarfs any SC player that has ever existed and will ever exist.

[Simulacrum]

He's right. Compared to Starcraft or even Quake 3, MOBAs are a joke in mechanical skill.

In DOTA, you manage a single unit and a bunch of abilities with last hitting and skill-shots as the mechanical play. There is arguably more strategy in DOTA than Starcraft but certainly, mechanical skill doesn't come close.

In SC2, you manage an entire army of multiple control groups filled with multiple unit types that each have their own abilities. A typical Protoss spell-caster army for example can have stalkers (blink), high templar (storm, feedback, archon), MSC (time warp, recall), sentries (guardian shield, force fields). You may also have Oracles and Voidrays in the mix. While using these abilities you are also positioning your army correctly, ensuring that the melee units are in front, colossus in the back and not being sniped, templars are not balled with the army and your observers managed properly. You also manage your macro (the harder part) as well in the middle of a big battle or you lose the game and react according to what strategies and builds your opponent employs.

Fact is, DOTA does not excel in the mechanical aspect that comes close to real strategy, only the team synchrony is what defines a team at the highest level, not their mechanical skill. This is the reason why they are so popular because it's very easy to recognize how terrible of a player you are in 1v1 SC2 but in a MOBA, it's much easier to blame the team hence why arena FPS and RTS are dying out, PC gaming is growing but is a lot more casual. This delusional perception of superiority and entitlement usually results in players being just as awful as the people they are blaming but can't recognize that they are awful because there is no single skill feedback or recognition besides last hitting and skill-shots. Starcraft simply dwarfs DOTA games in mechanics.

Except most games below the highest levels of skill are mostly just (after the first few skirmishes) macro hard, then decide when to attack-move and when not to attack-move. Or, if you want to be more specific, it's better to macro hard and attack-move than it is to macro poorly and micro well. Then the strategy just comes down to timing your attack-move properly. And most abilities are just "blow them on your enemy haphazardly, at the start of a fight, until you run out of mana".

I've watched too many streams where two players' armies collide, and after a while the streamer goes "hey, I won that", after he spent 90% of the battle looking at his base and re-maxing rather than controlling units.

MOBAs can have very high levels of mechanical skill requirements too, as is obvious when you look at how well the pros play compared to normal (even high-level) players, or even the best pros vs. the average pro. Take faker, for example:


Personally I did not even catch what happened in that fight before re-viewing it, and I found that short exchange a lot more impressive than what I see most players do in most high-level sc2 games... which is just macro, macro, macro.

[Deleted]

Once you can get past that wall of learning curve, and start to not have to worry about 'How does this hero work', thats when you start having fun.

[Wildmoon]

Fixt for your convenience


I dunno about you but I played SC2 to at least plat but Meepo is still more of a bitch to play at a basic level than Protoss deathball at plat.


Did you ever even play DotA, dude.
Have you heard of YajirobefromDC
His mechanical skill dwarfs any SC player that has ever existed and will ever exist.

Not sure if serious. Protoss as a race by far surpass Dota in mechanical skill required even if you play deathball style all the time. Just by macroing will put pressure on your mechanic more than Dota.

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Except most games below the highest levels of skill are mostly just (after the first few skirmishes) macro hard, then decide when to attack-move and when not to attack-move. Or, if you want to be more specific, it's better to macro hard and attack-move than it is to macro poorly and micro well. Then the strategy just comes down to timing your attack-move properly. And most abilities are just "blow them on your enemy haphazardly, at the start of a fight, until you run out of mana".

I've watched too many streams where two players' armies collide, and after a while the streamer goes "hey, I won that", after he spent 90% of the battle looking at his base and re-maxing rather than controlling units.

MOBAs can have very high levels of mechanical skill requirements too, as is obvious when you look at how well the pros play compared to normal (even high-level) players, or even the best pros vs. the average pro. Take faker, for example:


Personally I did not even catch what happened in that fight before re-viewing it, and I found that short exchange a lot more impressive than what I see most players do in most high-level sc2 games... which is just macro, macro, macro.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Simplification at its best.

[Deleted]

Not sure if serious. Protoss as a race by far surpass Dota in mechanical skill required even if you play deathball style all the time. Just by macroing will put pressure on your mechanic more than Dota.

Not sure if serious.
Have you ever tried to play Meepo.
Even Chen is harder than deathball.

[Wildmoon]

Not sure if serious.
Have you ever tried to play Meepo.
Even Chen is harder than deathball.

umm yes I played them in original Dota and I played WC3 too... Both heroes won't demand 200 apm from you. You could spend 200 APM on protoss effectively. Controlling HTs,sentries,MSC and macroing should be enough to beat chen or meepo mechnical wise.

[Deleted]

umm yes I played them in original Dota and I played WC3 too... Both heroes won't demand 200 apm from you. You could spend 200 APM on protoss effectively.

I disagree so I guess there's no real point in arguing huh.

[Wildmoon]

I disagree so I guess there's no real point in arguing huh.

It's objective so you can't disagree.

[Deleted]

It's objective so you can't disagree.

Then please demonstrate this objectivity with actual facts rather than "This requires more APM than that because I say so"
Because a statement like that isn't objective. You have quite a weird view of what objectivity is.

Also APM isn't the only measure of mechanical skill.
I forgot to mention that.

[Deleted]

Because it's free, people like free. Theres a reason Team Fortress is also as popular as it is even though it doesn't have that amazing gameplay.

[Wildmoon]

Then please demonstrate this objectivity with actual facts rather than "This requires more APM than that because I say so"
Because a statement like that isn't objective. You have quite a weird view of what objectivity is.

Just by sheer amount of things you have to manage as protoss compare to meepo will tell that what I said is fact. It's just a common sense.

[Deleted]

Just by sheer amount of things you have to manage as protoss compare to meepo will tell that what I said is fact. It's just a common sense.

Saying "It's common sense" doesn't constitute as an argument. I don't feel the need to convince you but you seem to feel some need to convince me.
So convince me.

[Wildmoon]

Also APM isn't the only measure of mechanical skill.

Mechanical skill=the ability of your hands which directly contributes to APM.

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Saying "It's common sense" doesn't constitute as an argument. I don't feel the need to convince you but you seem to feel some need to convince me.
So convince me.

I did. If you play both game you will know that the amount of things you need to manage are not comparable at all.

[Xorious]

Fixt for your convenience


I dunno about you but I played SC2 to at least plat but Meepo is still more of a bitch to play at a basic level than Protoss deathball at plat.


Did you ever even play DotA, dude.
Have you heard of YajirobefromDC
His mechanical skill dwarfs any SC player that has ever existed and will ever exist.

Well you don't seem biased at all!

[Repefe]

It does not really matter which is more mechanical skill intensive. Normal players don't reach mechanical skill caps in either of those.

[Raiju]

It does not really matter which is more mechanical skill intensive. Normal players don't reach mechanical skill caps in either of those.

Well there's a shocking indicator really...

A lot of newbie/casual players get turned off SC2 pvp because they get stomped, repeatedly. The game has a massive knowledge check to even win games in say.. silver. This does not exist in MOBA games, they are easy to pick up for a casual crowd as they are intended to.

At a top level, it's debatable. I personally believe that SC2 requires far more 'mechanical skill' than any of the big MOBA's, but that is an opinion.

[May90]

Lol, what is here even to discuss? In MOBA you control ONE UNIT. Yanking your manhood is harder than that.

[Kelathos]

People's fascination with MOBA games is clearly in the competitive sports aspect of it.

[Jester Joe]

Lol, what is here even to discuss? In MOBA you control ONE UNIT. Yanking your manhood is harder than that.

Clearly, like said before, you haven't played Meepo.

Sure, SC2 has more that you control, but still, if you have to say that in a MOBA you only control "ONE UNIT" then I don't think you know enough about them to say which is harder.

[Deleted]

Well you don't seem biased at all!

If you're talking about the Yajirobe thing that was a joke.

Mechanical skill=the ability of your hands which directly contributes to APM.

Box dragging is 2 actions
Clicking your unit into the correct position is 2 actions (unless you have it selected)

Clicking your unit into the correct position is far more difficult

I did. If you play both game you will know that the amount of things you need to manage are not comparable at all.

I've played both games and I think the amount of things you can put down to muscle memory in SC2 makes the mechanical skill hardly anything more than memory.