[Megathread] Destiny

[Edge-]

Sure, but there is a difference between saying:
"We need to have reasonable release schedule of updates, meassured based on our team ability to deliver"
and
"We need to be very, very wary of not delivering too much because maybe we would not be able to do that"

The only difference is the framing, the intent is 100% the same.

Again, this is a talk to other industry professionals, not consumers who have little understanding of game development or the business of games. This is why I hate when people source arguments back to GDC talks - because they're almost always consumers taking trade/industry presentations out of context. The talks are actually great and can be super interesting, but they're not intended for consumers who don't have experience to contextualize them.

Those are not the same things and not the same philosophy. And looking how Destiny 2 is a prime example of why monetization is fucked up im gonna say that they are greedy motherfuckers.

Those are the exact same thing. It's inelegantly but directly communicating that if you don't figure out a sustainable level of content to ship with regular updates/expansions, you're setting yourself up for longterm failure as you're conditioning your playerbase to expect what is not actually sustainable. That's it, and it's 100% true and accurate, and as noted we have examples from other games that have had to pivot from those bigger but unsustainable support plans to reduced scopes that gives them more freedom and they can actually deliver on.

Issues related to Destiny's monetization are largely separate from this concept, IMO.

[Aliven]

The only difference is the framing, the intent is 100% the same.

Those are the exact same thing. It's inelegantly but directly communicating that if you don't figure out a sustainable level of content to ship with regular updates/expansions, you're setting yourself up for longterm failure as you're conditioning your playerbase to expect what is not actually sustainable. That's it, and it's 100% true and accurate, and as noted we have examples from other games that have had to pivot from those bigger but unsustainable support plans to reduced scopes that gives them more freedom and they can actually deliver on.

Issues related to Destiny's monetization are largely separate from this concept, IMO.

Em, no.
Intent of Destiny 2 is to trap players with FOMO, sunk cost fallacy, addictive behaviour to maximize spending. Game is just a good looking trap, nothing more.
Thats why, when that monkey said what he said, using those words i dont ever for a second believe he wanted to say first thing but that he wanted to say simply:
"Do as little and monetize the shit out of those fuckers".

[Edge-]

Em, no.
Intent of Destiny 2 is to trap players with FOMO, sunk cost fallacy, addictive behaviour to maximize spending. Game is just a good looking trap, nothing more.
Thats why, when that monkey said what he said, using those words i dont ever for a second believe he wanted to say first thing but that he wanted to say simply:
"Do as little and monetize the shit out of those fuckers".

...what?

Destiny 2 uses many of the industry standard monetization tools and tactics. The only thing "unique" is really that they straight up delete old content you paid for.

Which has nothing to do with the GDC talk warning about overdelivering.

This is kinda a highlight example of why GDC talks are largely lost on consumers. They approach them as consumers, including not understanding the disciplines or much about game development to begin with. These talks aren't for you (the royal you), the average consumer. They're industry/trade talks to fellow professionals.

[Makabreska]

Some CEOs should really know better to just stfu in moments like this:



And, of course, during acquisition by Sony everybody was assuring that there will be no job cuts. Story as old as Amiga 2000.

- - - Updated - - -

...what?

Destiny 2 uses many of the industry standard monetization tools and tactics. The only thing "unique" is really that they straight up delete old content you paid for.

I heard that buying season pass does not give you that season dungeon. And that it is the only fully priced game on the market that monetises transmog. That does not sound standard.

[Edge-]

Parsons is just really endearing himself with the Destiny 2/Bungie community.

[Aliven]

...what?

Destiny 2 uses many of the industry standard monetization tools and tactics. The only thing "unique" is really that they straight up delete old content you paid for.

Each and every single GaaS uses the same principle. So you are correct. But industry standard is to milk all idiots who play that game attached to a storefront.

[Edge-]

Each and every single GaaS uses the same principle. So you are correct. But industry standard is to milk all idiots who play that game attached to a storefront.

Just doubling down on refusing to accept or acknowledge that you might be wrong as you're discussing a topic that you're not well informed or experienced with, then.

Again, the GDC talk you're still complaining about has nothing to do with that monetization strategy and is a general warning that's applicable broadly beyond just live-service games, though is especially applicable to those games as they run the risk of overdelivering with more regularity.

[Aliven]

I heard that buying season pass does not give you that season dungeon. And that it is the only fully priced game on the market that monetises transmog. That does not sound standard.

That and many, many others thing. Like weapons behind a paywall. Literally saying they cant put one new armor in the game while also flooding store with new armors
The one of the less fucked up example is putting armor and legos in the end of the season pass. Those can be used in pvp mind you, so if you pay ahead for tiers in season pass you are weeks ahead of other people.
Or just generally increasing price of everything with new monetizations, like mentioned dungeon pass.

And people still defend them and say their design philosophy and monetizations are separate issues.

- - - Updated - - -

Just doubling down on refusing to accept or acknowledge that you might be wrong as you're discussing a topic that you're not well informed or experienced with, then.

Again, the GDC talk you're still complaining about has nothing to do with that monetization strategy and is a general warning that's applicable broadly beyond just live-service games, though is especially applicable to those games as they run the risk of overdelivering with more regularity.

Bungie literally is delivering IN GAME as little as possible and increasing monetization across the board. Like actually increasing prices for season pass etc. Like saying they are unable to deliver new armor in game. Like not working on pvp while annoucing pvp focused game.

You know what is not well informed? That you think monetization in Destiny 2 and developing a game with updates has nothing to do witch each other.

[Zorachus]

Disgusting and shameful. No more Destiny 2 for me and won't buy a Destiny 3 if there is even a D3 game in development? I was hoping a Destiny 3 was at least coming down the pipeline? But sounds like not?

And screw Destiny 2, it might be the most expensive game ever in history. I used to play it early on, then took a year or more off, and saw I needed to pay an additional $70 or so to play the newest content, and then took another year or so off, and again, the new content had to be bought again, and it wasn't cheap. Seems like every year I saw prices of $70 to $90 to keep current with the game seasons? WTF? Seems like since launch, this game could run you in the hundreds of dollars to stay current. They have these seasons or expansions or something, and each release they want like $50+, on top of already paying for the main original game. So the main game + plus these seasons and expansions all added up to play over the years could be like $300 or $400 WTF?

[Luthorite]

Read up on the news about Bungie. Just really disgusted more than anything.

This company used to have such a casual culture around it and now it's gone to shit because of corporate types. It's just a smaller Actiblizz at this point now.

Can't say I have any interest in playing The Final Shape anymore.

[Makabreska]

More bad news for Bungie. Marathon reportedly flopped amongst playtesters. The source may be questionable, but it would make sense, considering what is going on now.


https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/marat...chaos-2364032/


And here is Bungee .jpg

https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/ourpathforward

[Luthorite]

More bad news for Bungie. Marathon reportedly flopped amongst playtesters. The source may be questionable, but it would make sense, considering what is going on now.


https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/marat...chaos-2364032/


And here is Bungee .jpg

https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/ourpathforward

They deserve whatever bad news they get for all I care.

Not even surprising a live service game wasn't well received when the market is infested with low effort ones.

[Edge-]

They deserve whatever bad news they get for all I care.

Not even surprising a live service game wasn't well received when the market is infested with low effort ones.

I'd take that report with grains of salt. Tom Henderson has heard otherwise, and I don't put much stock in either him or that YTer I don't know.

Also, context is important. Sounds like they were playing a very early build - IIRC in 2022 - which would definitely be hugely incomplete experience. Testers in very early alpha/pre-alpha testing not liking the game as-is isn't a death knell, it's valuable testing data that developers usually seek out when they can during early phases of development to help guide their work and prevent them from blowing tons of time on a project that might not land with any audiences.

The Bungie message though...is bad. Leadership need to accept responsibility and not pawn it off on the broader studio, and I'm pretty sure this is like the 4th time we've read almost this exact apology and commitment to improving from Bungie.

https://www.pcgamesinsider.biz/news/...lustre-update/

I mean, they just did one of these after the pressure cooker that was their ignoring PvP finally started leaking and they had to issue an apology and a commitment to doing better. This was barely two months ago.

[Vetali]

Honestly didn't remotely expect an acceptable message from Bungie in the TWAB, they got rid of their CM team lol. Somehow this falls way below my expectations. Current (LF to now) Bungie is ironically reminding me of post Halo Infinite launch 343 where it just reeks of mismanagement of resources by higher ups. Them coming out and saying "Ya, we ain't got the resources to support 2/3 of our ritual activities. But hey! We'll still require those activities to be played for seasonal challenges!" was terrible.

[Greenmagoo]

Destiny 2 is lucky that no one has been able to make a game quite like it. Not sure why but no one has been able to emulate the gunplay or level design, things that made players tolerate the games lopsided monetization and direction.

I'd say even if they could emulate it that they would have to outdo Destiny due to having to deal with those most critical of Destiny primed to sling toxicity and abandon them. A part of me wonders what if Anthem didn't attract so many of the vocal Destiny haters and rather was filled with more supporters like Destiny had. Although, many of the hardcores who transitioned to Warframe in response to D2 launch did so quite calmly. The loss of that type of hardcore playerbase after D2 launch in my opinion killed many of the back and forth discussions in the Destiny community leading them to be largely one sided.

Personally, I'd say this expansion was lower mid and the padding is there while I don't mind it much. I enjoyed the past season and got to dabble in this season while personal life has gotten very busy that I've gone weeks without touching any game. I like GAAS games for a reason and they are going to be repeatable and have some kind of FOMO regardless due to their nature. I have my single player games for the time I want to just do something and be done with it.

I can easily see where someone who is burned out and wants to see the end is over it. I hit that point many of times in WoW including during WotLK. The layoffs suck and unsurprisingly kill the hopes of those so invested or holding on by a thread. That said this isn't the first game I've seen such so I've gotten a bit numb to it. Destiny has long since been a game I wouldn't recommend to many and that was back in D1 while in part for different reasons.

And, of course, during acquisition by Sony everybody was assuring that there will be no job cuts. Story as old as Amiga 2000.

Lets be real. How long does that claim ever hold up let alone should. It has been over a year since the acquisition and is better than many who cut jobs within the following months. The only thing making this note worthy than most others is a number of high profile staff vs the usual hundreds of low tier employees that other companies usually cut that the community forgets about a week later until wondering why the support has gone to shit. It does suck that there are layoffs during the holidays especially to those who made a multi decade long career at a single company.

[Mojo03]

I re-installed D2 to try the new season and to see what it's like on an OLED (recently got one)

Did the first mission.

Went to go do the 2nd only to discover you need to buy season 22 (last season) to access the map.

Laughed and immediately uninstalled it again.

Not only that, there's essentially nothing for "free" players and the paid pass is the same shit they always do.

Between this simple stuff and the mountain of other things, this feels like watching a masterclass in how to mismanage a live service game at this point.

[Deus Mortis]

Bungie Devs Say Atmosphere Is ‘Soul-Crushing’ Amid Layoffs, Cuts, and Fear of Total Sony Takeover
https://www.ign.com/articles/bungie-...-sony-takeover

One month after a major round of layoffs impacted roughly 100 Bungie employees of 1,200, those remaining at the Destiny developer say the cuts, as well as other cost-cutting measures, came alongside an apparent scramble by studio leadership to avoid a total Sony takeover.

As it currently stands, Bungie is (on paper) a fully independent subsidiary of Sony. But its board of directors has been divided since the takeover in July of 2022. Among its current members are PlayStation Studios head Hermen Hulst, Sony senior VP Eric Lempel, Bungie co-founder Jason Jones, Bungie CTO Luis Villegas, and Bungie CEO Pete Parsons. The board as a whole is split between Sony and Bungie representatives, with Parsons serving as a tiebreaker vote. But speaking to IGN under condition of anonymity, multiple current and former Bungie employees described a department meeting that took place shortly after the layoffs, in which leaders hinted that this shared power may not last forever.

Sony did not respond to IGN’s request for comment on this piece. Bungie declined to comment.

Declaration of Dependence
While the exact details of Sony’s deal to acquire Bungie remain unknown to the public or employees, sources say they were told by leaders that the current split board structure is contingent on Bungie meeting certain financial goals. If Bungie falls short of certain financial thresholds by too great an amount, Sony is allowed to dissolve the existing board and take full control of the company. And with Destiny 2 expansion The Final Shape delayed into the next fiscal year and Bungie still investing heavily on Marathon, many employees understand that Bungie is struggling to meet the necessary targets to keep its last vestige of freedom. Such a takeover wouldn’t necessarily be shocking given its 2022 acquisition, but it would nevertheless be a stunning development for a company that has historically prided itself on its independence.

It was with this threat looming that Bungie leadership - not Sony, according to Parsons - made the choice to lay off roughly 100 employees last month. But the cost-cutting at Bungie isn’t limited to just personnel. Multiple current employees confirmed to IGN that the company has implemented numerous other cost-cutting measures recently, including a studio-wide hiring freeze, reduced travel budgets, elimination of holiday bonuses, keeping its annual Bungie Day virtual, delaying its weeklong company “Pentathalon” event to next December, and reducing numerous morale events such as cooking and knitting classes from monthly to quarterly. Bungie is also pausing or fully ending benefits like annual employee compensation adjustments to meet market rates, its new hire lunch program, employee donation matching, its peer recognition program, and gift cards for employees birthdays. And yearly studio performance bonuses this year will only be the contractually obligated 80% minimum, after being above 100% for good performance several previous years running.

Along with the recent layoffs, this has resulted in a massive decay in morale within the company, according to IGN’s sources, one of whom told us that the mood within the studio has been “soul-crushing” over the last month. And it doesn’t sound like management is making any significant efforts toward improving the atmosphere, either. According to those still with the company, employee frustration and sadness in the days and weeks following the layoffs was met with a surprising amount of indifference or even outright flippancy or hostility from management. Several people we spoke to told us that leaders had reiterated, across multiple meetings, that they couldn’t guarantee there wouldn’t be more layoffs, with two specifically confirming previous reports that chief people officer Holly Barbacovi outright stating that layoffs were a “lever” the company would pull again.

“We know we need Final Shape to do well,” one source told IGN. “And the feeling at the studio is that if it doesn’t we’re definitely looking at more layoffs.”

I have to wonder if Sony taking full control would make things better. I redownloaded D2 a couple months ago.(last time I played was clearing the first raid). Was disappointed to see all the old content I once played through was all gone, and the cost to unlock everything is absurd.