Man...I'd forgotten about how difficult it is

[Dawnrage]

Because most top-end DPS can do their rotations in their sleep. When I rerolled to Windwalker, I sat on a raid target dummy until I found myself daydreaming/chatting on Mumble and doing my rotation (correctly) without thinking about it. That was when I knew I was ready to raid. I don't have to think about when to use my major cooldowns; it comes naturally. Sure, I use WA to time them, but that's more like having a safety blanket. Your priorities and class don't typically vary too much from fight to fight, unless you are on a bleeding edge guild like that where you might swap to another class. Now, your CD usage might vary (ie, saving major DPS CDs for Recklessness on Windlord), but that's not quite the same as your rotation/prio list.

Every top DPS can do their rotation sleeping, I completely agree. It's doing that rotation while avoiding all the mechanics/randomness of a fight that is not very easy to do. If it was, every player would be parsing (barring fights with certain strategies being better for DPS).

DPS matters when you are pushing early kills, IE WotE heroic in a raid full of people with a 464 ilevel. I agree with you to that extent, but a dead DPS isn't very helpful; if someone is dying to mechanics and/or wiping the raid and is in your top 5, would you honestly continue bringing them? I doubt the guilds you just mentioned would. Point being - the numbers should come naturally at this point. It shouldn't be the hardest part of raiding, and as a DPS I don't find it to BE the hardest part of raiding. For me, the hardest part is strategizing our pulls before ever seeing the fight. In addition, Vizier had some issues in his early iteration as far as final phase goes. Also - bleeding and cutting edge guilds (IE, World Top 200, even to the extent of World Top 300) have a tendency to stack certain classes for certain fights, for example stacking extra Priests for Empress H, or rogues/DKs for Garalon, or even mages for Will. So, if I were a Windwalker who happened to be doing, say, top 5 damage on Garalon, but we still aren't killing him due to not having enough body + leg damage, I'd be the first to opt to be sat, given that cleave was/is so incredibly strong for that fight.

Well, I did agree that you shouldn't bring "dead" DPS no matter what - from my experience however, someone who puts out amazing numbers tend to be the over-performing player in the raid, they aren't usually the people that mess up a lot.

I also wouldn't necessarily say abusing the nuances; part of getting a top parse would also be your strategy for the fight. For example, most of our strats are pretty terrible if you happen to be a melee DPS, given that most of our strategizers play ranged; then there's also things like H Protectors, where I'm probably never going to rank as I don't receive Corrupted Essence stacks until the final phase of the fight. But, I will agree to the extent of knowing mechanics well enough to do 2% more damage from using a certain mechanic to your advantage There's definitely certain things that come together for a top rank - great RNG, a great strategy, great gear, and - of course - knowing how to get the most out of mechanics.

I agree, but barring those fights like protector where a group gets stacks first, or WotE where you CC adds and AE 8 at once or whatever strategies for other fights that could hamper your performance compared to someone else in another guild, most top parsers tend to parse well on every fight - not just a select few. I don't want to link your parses, but you perform in a certain percentile for most fights and I don't think it's mere coincidence or luck (please don't take offense to this, just making my point).

[Nohara]

So, you are not outdpsing others, but you do 80% of the DPS with 10 ilvls behind. How does that make you in any way so much better then your guildy's? You are on par with others.. (and besides that, if you are the better player, you should know it is not only about pulling the biggest numbers).

You handled ICC 10m as LFR, well, logical, ICC was nerfed to the bone. Current Tier did not have any significant nerfs like ICC, FL and DS.

I'm sorry, but you only have nagging rights if you are completely outclassing your guildy's, and from what I am reading, you sound like the crappy guildy's that only nag on others, while they are the biggest part of the problem.

-Edit:

Just looked at some logs, hate to break it to you, but you are nothing special. Truth to be told, the whole raid doesnt look that awesome, but still, even in ilvl 472, you claim bragging rights because you werent last DPS on certain fights. I doubt you can keep up in 25 ilvls higher in any Heroic raid.

[Callimonk]

Well, I did agree that you shouldn't bring "dead" DPS no matter what - from my experience however, someone who puts out amazing numbers tend to be the over-performing player in the raid, they aren't usually the people that mess up a lot.

Yes and no. We've had some people who put out great numbers and died, like I've explained. And managed to parse after we held their hand through an encounter.

I agree, but barring those fights like protector where a group gets stacks first, or WotE where you CC adds and AE 8 at once or whatever strategies for other fights that could hamper your performance compared to someone else in another guild, most top parsers tend to parse well on every fight - not just a select few. I don't want to link your parses, but you perform in a certain percentile for most fights and I don't think it's mere coincidence or luck (please don't take offense to this, just making my point).

I definitely could, and anyone could find my current public parses via wow-heroes. Also, "I perform in a certain percentile" - okay? We could also be altering our strat so that I'm constantly on the boss, and my numbers would also appear differently if I were the one logging for certain encounters. Dunno what class you play, but there's also a huge difference between 2H monk and DW - and I only recently (within last few weeks of logs, just before holidays) managed to go DW. Even while 2H, I managed to pull competitive, ranked numbers. I'm not ranking now, I admit, but I'm also 505 equipped vs. most of the top 1% of my class, who are 511 (now, not to say I'm not being outranked by some amazing players who are at the same level of gear - I know a few of them that ARE better than I am, and happen to be on par gear-wise). For example, if you look at 25H Lei Shi - #42 is Dopamein, (whose armory btw lies - I know he's better equipped than I am). He reached 192K DPS. Now look at Moozh, who is an amazing player in his own right - #46, currently 512 equipped. Seems interesting, right? Sometimes, it is just RNG between logs and other contributing factors (such as last night's log, where I did perform poorly due to completely different strats than I was used to, IRL issues, and a myriad of other things - let's just say my typical Elegon DPS is about 20K higher these days). Oh - and keep in mind that when most of those logs were made, I was ilevel 500, not 505. 1 item level can be 1% DPS, and I received some major item upgrades this week. Also note the differences between the item level on my weapon, and the fact that my OH is a str weapon (as I have only so far had access to LFR OHs, that one simmed better for me than a 483 fist... ugh). My class in particular scales beautifully with weapon damage, so me having a lower weapon damage is going to hurt more than, say, the fact that I recently replaced 489 bracers.

That's going to cause some damage disparity. I follow their logs pretty closely to see where I can improve. I'm not the best Windwalker by any means, and yep I can tweak performance on fights, but I'm also going to point out that ranks also aren't the be-all end-all of performance numbers-wise (especially considering, too, the differences between Korean raids and the rest of the world - it'll be interesting to see how rankings adjust once we aren't compared to people with a much higher item level). Again, I typically outperform where I sim at.

And, of course they perform well on every encounter. Take Snarfysnarf from Promethean - awesome player, top parses for basically every fight as Windwalker. The kind of person that I'd love to be, but I know that I'm just not as skilled as he is.

[Dawnrage]

I'm not sure why you used Lei Shi considering you know how the fight works ("padding" on protectors, uptime of scary fog, amount of hides). That's besides the point however, I really don't want to get into a discussion about why you aren't parsing and what-not, I don't think that will end well, hehe. My apologies for bring your parses into question here - my intention wasn't to start a debate about your DPS.

[Glasse]

Because top guilds are clicky.

Depends what you mean by top guilds.

If you are good they'll come get you even if you are in a guild, don't even need to app.

If you can't join a good guild, the problem is probably you.

I know people that do recruitment for my guild and they spend hours looking at raidbots and apps.

[Angarin]

So, you are not outdpsing others, but you do 80% of the DPS with 10 ilvls behind. How does that make you in any way so much better then your guildy's? You are on par with others.. (and besides that, if you are the better player, you should know it is not only about pulling the biggest numbers).

You handled ICC 10m as LFR, well, logical, ICC was nerfed to the bone. Current Tier did not have any significant nerfs like ICC, FL and DS.

I'm sorry, but you only have nagging rights if you are completely outclassing your guildy's, and from what I am reading, you sound like the crappy guildy's that only nag on others, while they are the biggest part of the problem.

-Edit:

Just looked at some logs, hate to break it to you, but you are nothing special. Truth to be told, the whole raid doesnt look that awesome, but still, even in ilvl 472, you claim bragging rights because you werent last DPS on certain fights. I doubt you can keep up in 25 ilvls higher in any Heroic raid.

Do something useful then & tell me what to do better. Other than that, dont speak unless you think you can do it better.

[Rakvatten]

Havent found a guild that lives longer than 3-4 months since TBC? Our guild has been raiding without any major breaks for 7 years, and we're pretty casual so obviously our progress isnt always the best, but we atleast got 7 HC's down.
Trust me, the guilds are there, as long as your application is very good, then you shouldnt have a problem, first impression is the most important one.

[Callimonk]

I'm not sure why you used Lei Shi considering you know how the fight works ("padding" on protectors, uptime of scary fog, amount of hides). That's besides the point however, I really don't want to get into a discussion about why you aren't parsing and what-not, I don't think that will end well, hehe. My apologies for bring your parses into question here - my intention wasn't to start a debate about your DPS.

We don't pad on Protectors for Lei Shi. I use that because it's got "most" of the gimmicks that you'd see in an encounter. In addition, it's an area where I've seen the most performance increase as my gear has improved; I would have never dreamed of doing nearly 170K on it, after how my numbers looked pre-DW and when I happened to be riding at a 494 ilevel (plus I was using a 483 OH, vs. a 496 - again, scaling with weap damage!) In addition, the majority of encounters have some gimmick - as has been discussed - that would cause you to do better or worse. Lei Shi is one of them (you mention scary fog - for me, my uptime would be low, given.. I'm a melee ;P and yes, Hides will cause it to go up and down as well as how a guild deals with protectors - we CC all but 1 of them). In addition, almost EVERY fight has a certain gimmick that can make you parse or not.

If you don't want to start a debate about someone's DPS, then don't wow-heroes them and try to tell them that their argument is invalid because they aren't outranking people 5+ item levels ahead of them - because that's precisely how you came off as, even if you didn't mean to. I'm aware of the areas where I can improve, and I know there are fights where I don't perform as well as I could. Vizier comes to mind (as that's another fight where it is single-target, and knowing how to deal with mechanics can be the difference between ranking and not), but let's say our public logs don't tell the full story (I was riding at much higher numbers prior to poor boss placement in final phase). I'm not offended, but I also don't think it'd be fair to tell someone that they are "performing at a certain percentage" if you aren't looking at the full story.

Also - would you say that to someone whose sims (on elite) typically show that their max damage should be 100K, when they are doing ~120k? Because, for the longest time, that was fairly typical for me.

[Dawnrage]

If you don't want to start a debate about someone's DPS, then don't wow-heroes them and try to tell them that their argument is invalid because they aren't outranking people 5+ item levels ahead of them - because that's precisely how you came off as, even if you didn't mean to.

I didn't mention your argument being invalid. It was just a counterpoint that top parsers tend to perform well on most given fights - when you mentioned that strategy on a fight is important on whether you parse or not. I don't think all the top parsers have the same "high DPS" strategies that let's them beat out everyone all the time. Gear is important, but for the most part, these guys are usually neck to neck throughout the tier (and if you need citation - just go look at epeenbot of their history).

The most obvious point (that most people usually refuse to admit) is that they are simply better as players. It's useless to cite sims all the time too. Sims only account for what it can derive from - which is usually a patchwerk fight (and all the other settings never truly match up to any of the fights you've done this tier). I don't even want to get into how I think there are various issues with sims in general.

My point was that DPS is important - those who say it's not are being "carried" by their gear (and let's face it, even if you are 15/16 HC now, you are way overgeared for the content you are doing compared to when people were at that stage a month ago). A player that can bring both survivability and DPS is a great DPS I would want for my roster back when I was leading a top 20 US guild. I wouldn't have settled for the player that can survive simply because he's focusing on nothing else but. How useless a player that would be.

Anyway, I really don't want to get into this so I'm just going to back off. We've derailed the thread enough.

[Sigmatism]

Because top guilds are clicky.

quote of the year! Was the most awkward time being in a guild like that in wrath. Haven't looked at a "top guild" since.

[Nohara]

Do something useful then & tell me what to do better. Other than that, dont speak unless you think you can do it better.

My advice to you is turn that ego a bit down. It doesnt suit the performance I have seen in the logs.

[Orange Joe]

Do something useful then & tell me what to do better. Other than that, dont speak unless you think you can do it better.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Angarin]

Thank you for proving my point.

Then your guild honestly probably doesn't have anybody in it with a thick skin? Nobody invited you to this thread...

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 03:32 PM ----------

My advice to you is turn that ego a bit down. It doesnt suit the performance I have seen in the logs.

But by what you said you implied your better no? Tune your own ego down first before you offer the same advice to someone else. And yes you did come off with an ego. Telling someone they're not as good as you make them out to be let alone telling them their guild sucks...I bet you 100% didn't even armory half the guild. You probably looked at my armory and thats it.

Please...just go. Your killing brain cells

[Orange Joe]

Then your guild honestly probably doesn't have anybody in it with a thick skin? Nobody invited you to this thread...

You don't seem to understand how a PUBLIC forum works.

There really isn't any mystery as to why you can't get in a good guild. Maybe when you get a bit more mature you will find a guild that will invite you.

[Angarin]

You don't seem to understand how a PUBLIC forum works.

There really isn't any mystery as to why you can't get in a good guild. Maybe when you get a bit more mature you will find a guild that will invite you.

Honestly I'm gonna just ignore you from now on. You ignore half my post and point out what you want. Obviously you don't have a thick skin, your about as mature as I am when you present this attitude. If you fail to see it then honestly, yeah you aren't much more "mature" than me. Welcome to the real world, outside of WoW

[Slummish]

Why don't you find a mediocre guild with potential, with members that have dedication, with members that need a strong guiding influence, and offer to lead raids for them?

[Angarin]

Why don't you find a mediocre guild with potential, with members that have dedication, with members that need a strong guiding influence, and offer to lead raids for them?

I actually used to lead alt group raids in wrath & led for my group for about 5 weeks in cataclysm. Its honestly a little to stressful for me. Just not my place, I'm a decent leader as a person, but in WoW its just a little to much for me. Especially since I want to put more influence on the challenge of playing my character in raids rather than the focus of leading one.

Just a personal preference

[Nohara]

Then your guild honestly probably doesn't have anybody in it with a thick skin? Nobody invited you to this thread...

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 03:32 PM ----------



But by what you said you implied your better no? Tune your own ego down first before you offer the same advice to someone else. And yes you did come off with an ego. Telling someone they're not as good as you make them out to be let alone telling them their guild sucks...I bet you 100% didn't even armory half the guild. You probably looked at my armory and thats it.

Please...just go. Your killing brain cells

You made a good bet, I indeed did not check 50% of all the characters in your guild. But give me some credit here, I checked out 5-6 I found in the logs. I know my place, but simply looking at the logs I can only conclude that most of your guildy's including you, underperform for being able to clear heroic content on your own strength. That has nothing to do with my ego, but with the logs I found.

Look buddy, you are the one that started complaining about everyone, but that is based on 1(?) raid night in 2 years, and the logs show you didnt do anything special at all, compaired to your guildy's. I mean, what do you expect?

[Angarin]

You made a good bet, I indeed did not check 50% of all the characters in your guild. But give me some credit here, I checked out 5-6 I found in the logs. I know my place, but simply looking at the logs I can only conclude that most of your guildy's including you, underperform for being able to clear heroic content on your own strength. That has nothing to do with my ego, but with the logs I found.

Look buddy, you are the one that started complaining about everyone, but that is based on 1(?) raid night in 2 years, and the logs show you didnt do anything special at all, compaired to your guildy's. I mean, what do you expect?

No where did I say we were going to clear heroic content anytime soon...no where. Not one place. Please go find where I said anything about wanting to do heroic content with this guild, and report back to me with it.

I await. This is actually the second time I've posted in reference to this in the past 5 minutes...do people assume that much?

[Klutzington]

Doing 80% of someone's DPS while being "only" 15 ilevels behind is actually quite a bit. It should be closer to like 90%.

Also: "Their top 3 dps'ers" doesn't mean anything. To be DPS you should strive to be at the top. So assuming you are good, you should be placing closely to that guilds top DPS, accounting for DPS loss via ilevel differences. Skill level can be the same, but differences in gear are apparent.