mastery stacking ww for rune of origination?

[Totaltotemic]

Well did a quick test on the PTR since the trinket can be bought from the vendor already. Can't cancelaura or right click the trinket proc, you are stuck with 0 haste/crit/mastery for the duration of the trinket proc on whatever stats are your lowest.

Abandon ship! The only possible case to make the trinket usable is gone D:

[Requital]

Well did a quick test on the PTR since the trinket can be bought from the vendor already. Can't cancelaura or right click the trinket proc, you are stuck with 0 haste/crit/mastery for the duration of the trinket proc on whatever stats are your lowest.

I sort of figured they would do something like this after the Ret Shadowmourne cancelaura debacle in icc was hoping they wouldn't but not surprised they did.

[Deleted]

Just tried rune today on the PTR - it's not even proccing right now so can't test to see if they have changed it at all

[Deleted]

Don't for get that the new mastery scales exponentially, like arpen used to do in WotLK. The more mastery you get, the better mastery becomes compared to other stats.


Gear/reforge for 50/50 haste mastery, with mastery very slightly ahead.
Gem purely for secondary stats.
When Rune procs, use TEB right away, then use TEB again just before the proc ends.

Losing haste/crit is a dps loss, but that doesnt matter when you get a more valuable stat in return:


this is me on the ptr with 8k haste, 8.1k mastery and 3.5k crit. Adding the 3k mastery raidbuff will add another 10% to 10TEB, bringing it to over 100%.

This trinket is HUGE. 10stack TEB + proc = 1shot ppl in PVP. TEB stacking to 20 = you will always have a 10stack ready to go (apart from maybe the first 30sec of an encounter).

Initial math from EJ shows a 10% overall dps increase from the proc alone, not counting the passive agility, and this is not nearly as optimized as it could be.

So the total value of the trinket would be at around 14-18k dps. Compare this to for example heroic elegon trinket 2/2 upgraded at around 6-7k dps.

The only downside is the low proc chance; with bad luck you can go minutes without proc, or get multiple procs at the start when you don't have enough TEB stacks yet. But this is offset by the perfect situation where you get a proc when you have 18-20 stacks of TEB ready, allowing for a full 30 seconds of proc-buffed 10stack TEB. And by using the 2nd TEB on the last sec of the proc, you will have your normal stats back stacked with the 14 sec of buffed TEB.



+ the proc scales fully with gear upgrades, so in T16, T17, etc it will still be a 10% dps increase! In fact, due to the exponential scaling of mastery, the proc will only become more valuable!

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 02:19 PM ----------

Addendum:

You could even combine this with Talisman of Bloodlust, and gem/reforge in such a way that the bloodlust procs will not exceed your total mastery. With a 5stack of bloodlust this would then convert to another 8.7k mastery rating (30% dmg on 10stack TEB).

In T15 BiS gear (excluding thunderforged items) I get to about 32315 mastery raidbuffed, which is 134% damage increase by 10TEB. With 5x bloodlust this would be 164% damage increase by 10TEB.

[Areohotah]

Don't for get that the new mastery scales exponentially, like arpen used to do in WotLK. The more mastery you get, the better mastery becomes compared to other stats.


Gear/reforge for 50/50 haste mastery, with mastery very slightly ahead.
Gem purely for secondary stats.
When Rune procs, use TEB right away, then use TEB again just before the proc ends.

Losing haste/crit is a dps loss, but that doesnt matter when you get a more valuable stat in return:


this is me on the ptr with 8k haste, 8.1k mastery and 3.5k crit. Adding the 3k mastery raidbuff will add another 10% to 10TEB, bringing it to over 100%.

This trinket is HUGE. 10stack TEB + proc = 1shot ppl in PVP. TEB stacking to 20 = you will always have a 10stack ready to go (apart from maybe the first 30sec of an encounter).

Initial math from EJ shows a 10% overall dps increase from the proc alone, not counting the passive agility, and this is not nearly as optimized as it could be.

So the total value of the trinket would be at around 14-18k dps. Compare this to for example heroic elegon trinket 2/2 upgraded at around 6-7k dps.

The only downside is the low proc chance; with bad luck you can go minutes without proc, or get multiple procs at the start when you don't have enough TEB stacks yet. But this is offset by the perfect situation where you get a proc when you have 18-20 stacks of TEB ready, allowing for a full 30 seconds of proc-buffed 10stack TEB. And by using the 2nd TEB on the last sec of the proc, you will have your normal stats back stacked with the 14 sec of buffed TEB.



+ the proc scales fully with gear upgrades, so in T16, T17, etc it will still be a 10% dps increase! In fact, due to the exponential scaling of mastery, the proc will only become more valuable!

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 02:19 PM ----------

Addendum:

You could even combine this with Talisman of Bloodlust, and gem/reforge in such a way that the bloodlust procs will not exceed your total mastery. With a 5stack of bloodlust this would then convert to another 8.7k mastery rating (30% dmg on 10stack TEB).

In T15 BiS gear (excluding thunderforged items) I get to about 32315 mastery raidbuffed, which is 134% damage increase by 10TEB. With 5x bloodlust this would be 164% damage increase by 10TEB.

especially if we use the t14 4 pc in the begining get that extra time on energizing brew and just use that during the 0 haste period until we can get t15 running. I still believe its beneficial at proper amounts of stats without the cancelaura

[Biggety]

Don't for get that the new mastery scales exponentially, like arpen used to do in WotLK. The more mastery you get, the better mastery becomes compared to other stats.

A minor quibble, but mastery scales linearly while the other stats see an exponential diminishing return at higher value.

The only downside is the low proc chance; with bad luck you can go minutes without proc, or get multiple procs at the start when you don't have enough TEB stacks yet. But this is offset by the perfect situation where you get a proc when you have 18-20 stacks of TEB ready, allowing for a full 30 seconds of proc-buffed 10stack TEB. And by using the 2nd TEB on the last sec of the proc, you will have your normal stats back stacked with the 14 sec of buffed TEB.

Herein lies the problem. The low proc chance makes this a "stars align" type of dps upgrade. If you cannot cancelaura a proc if it happens early in a fight before you have TEB stacks, your dps just cratered for the duration.

If they changed it from a proc to an "on-use" with a 2 minute cooldown, I could see it having value under the scenario you lay out above. With a proc, I would guess that you can get optimal use out of the trinket in maybe half of the procs. Playing around the procs means you are also pooling a lot of TEB instead of maintaining high uptime. During those pooling periods, all that mastery you have reforged to is essentially useless. Yes, your dps spikes significantly during the 20 second proc, but I can't see it outweighing a balanced stats approach with a different trinket.

TL;DR - the scenario you describe makes you a ret paladin with unpredictable wings that have a chance to lower your dps by 30%

[Deleted]

Even at suboptimal usage it should still a massive dps increase.

[Biggety]

Even at suboptimal usage it should still a massive dps increase.

I don't see how you get that. Napkin mathed out. .46 rppm means that over a lengthy fight, you will average 1 proc every 2 minutes. Under the ideal scenario as you describe above, you will see a 100% ability and white damage increase, however that damage is lowered by the fact that you will lose crit% and haste for the duration. Assuming you lose 10% crit and 10% haste, you will still see an approximate 80% damage increase during the 15 seconds of TEB. If you reapply another full 10 stacks before the proc drops off, you get 30 seconds out of every 2 minutes at 80% increased damage.

During a patchwerk fight, you should be generating 10 stacks of TEB about every 45 seconds. Meaning that if you want your full 20 stacks of TEB for the proc , you are going to pool all the way up to 20 stacks before you use TEB just waiting for a proc. Law of averages says you get to use your unbuffed TEB stack once without proc for every two times with the proc. Ideally, you would be getting 30 seconds at +80% damage and 15 seconds at +40% damage. Sounds pretty good.

The problem comes when you get the proc just after you've hit TEB. TEB does a snapshot of your mastery when you click it, so you've got 15 seconds of +40% damage minus a bunch of crit and haste. If you've got another ten stacks at the end, you can immediately reapply TEB for the improved snapshot of mastery, but that first TEB was actually worse because of the proc.

As stated above, what happens when you get an early proc in a fight before you've build up TEB stacks is that it craters your dps and makes generating TEB stacks slower initially by killing your haste. Meanwhile, that 8k of mastery rating is doing you no good.

All told, the rune would be interesting as an on-use trinket to take advantage of a good stack of TEB and coordinate with a late bloodlust during a burn phase. Otherwise, it seems that there is just a significant enough risk of hurting your dps that a more stable trinket without a big downside would be a better option.

As a side-note, Xuen does not scale with TEB unless something has changed. He does scale with crit and haste. He also dynamically updates his stats. Gearing this way hurts his potential damage and a proc of the trinket would just magnify that effect.

[Deleted]

I agree with Biggety. The trinket is just too RNG, you may get some really good damage numbers with enough luck and procs at the right time. But on the other hand the proc can even be a dps loss.

[Totaltotemic]

Even at suboptimal usage it should still a massive dps increase.

Crevan, who's been doing the bulk of the analysis on this particular trinket, specifically stated that the DPS gain cited was assuming 100% perfect procs, always coinciding with the availability of a 10 stack TEB. When it became available for testing, he said that it has an extremely erratic proc rate due to having a low RPPM chance and the way that system works.

There is no basis for your statement, let's not get caught up in initial assumptions just because you really want it to be as good as it first seemed.

[Biggety]

Crevan, who's been doing the bulk of the analysis on this particular trinket, specifically stated that the DPS gain cited was assuming 100% perfect procs, always coinciding with the availability of a 10 stack TEB. When it became available for testing, he said that it has an extremely erratic proc rate due to having a low RPPM chance and the way that system works.

There is no basis for your statement, let's not get caught up in initial assumptions just because you really want it to be as good as it first seemed.

Out of curiosity, is there any class/spec where this trinket would be beneficial? GC mentioned Enhance shaman ascendance as being a good window, but that runs into the same problems. Do you sit on your ascendance cooldown just hoping for this proc to appear? Beast Mastery hunters maybe? I really don't see a good class to fit this trinket.

The design team on WoW has worked very hard to make sure that stat weights are pretty close to even and that most of them have diminishing returns to prevent single stat stacking. This trinket goes directly against that design philosophy and I'm a little puzzled by it.

[Deleted]

Some screenshots from tonight's raidtesting to further reinforce my assumptions:

[Tehstool]

Out of curiosity, is there any class/spec where this trinket would be beneficial? GC mentioned Enhance shaman ascendance as being a good window, but that runs into the same problems. Do you sit on your ascendance cooldown just hoping for this proc to appear? Beast Mastery hunters maybe? I really don't see a good class to fit this trinket.

The design team on WoW has worked very hard to make sure that stat weights are pretty close to even and that most of them have diminishing returns to prevent single stat stacking. This trinket goes directly against that design philosophy and I'm a little puzzled by it.

Nope. This trinket is absolutely horrendous for hunters. Imo it needs a redesign.

[Totaltotemic]

Some screenshots from tonight's raidtesting to further reinforce my assumptions:

I'm still not sure what you're trying to do here. The fact that WW is OP on the PTR really doesn't have anything to do with the Rune of Re-Origination, it has to do with a massive buff to TEB when we're already above average on live. The trinket has very high highs and very low lows, a screenshot of recount at its luckiest is just being ignorant of the true nature of the trinket.

[Tehstool]

Some screenshots from tonight's raidtesting to further reinforce my assumptions:

Am I looking at the right? You are at 150k dps and someone below you is at 120k? 30% of 120k is 36k. You are just about 30% above them. Is this just burst or at the end of the fight or what?

[Areohotah]

Some screenshots from tonight's raidtesting to further reinforce my assumptions:

if 160k dps has a dps loss from the trinket (according to people above who have no substantial evidence in their posts) I can't wait to see what our regular dps is like.

[Totaltotemic]

Am I looking at the right? You are at 150k dps and someone below you is at 120k? 30% of 120k is 36k. You are just about 30% above them. Is this just burst or at the end of the fight or what?

39 million seems like damage from a whole fight, and 23 Rising Sun Kicks is at least 3 minutes of straight DPSing. WW is silly on PTR and has been since it went through. If you take a spec's mastery, give it back to them as a passive, give them a new mastery that is even better than the old one, AND buff a core rotational ability (TEB is 3 charges instead of 4), you've got a recipe for a massive DPS buff.

@Areohotah, the trinket isn't always a DPS loss. In fact, it's at very worst a trinket with a lot of passive Agility on it that has a proc that can potentially be worthless. At best, it's a trinket with a lot of Agility that has a proc that can be massively abused by Windwalkers. In general though, it's still a trinket with a lot of Agility with a proc that is sometimes very good and sometimes worthless. The Agility alone makes it better than a 489 Bottle of Infinite Stars or something, so it's not like it's a worthless trinket. It's just not consistently at the same level as the other 522 Agility trinkets, it's either way above or way below depending on how lucky you got on that pull.

[Deleted]

I didnt get lucky, i just used 2 TEBs per trinket proc regardless of how many stack i had, i think i got 2 or 3 procs?

Without the trinket im not way ahead of the rest, and with the trinket im consistently ranking first. Draw your own conclusions, Ill be taking advantage of the trinket at least

[Photek]

I didnt get lucky, i just used 2 TEBs per trinket proc regardless of how many stack i had, i think i got 2 or 3 procs?

Without the trinket im not way ahead of the rest, and with the trinket im consistently ranking first. Draw your own conclusions, Ill be taking advantage of the trinket at least

2/3 procs in a 3min fight is just RNG being nice with you. Did a lot of 5min testing with 0/1 procs on the dummies.

[Deleted]

Except that it was over 4 minutes.

39M / 158k = 247.

So 2 or 3 procs is pretty much expected.