[5.2] PTR Standardized DPS Testing - Come Help!

[Methusula]

You aren't using Raidbots right if you think I can't disprove your point about arcane's place on meters. Keeping up stacks does not equal keeping up max dps. The fact that other classes beat arcane on movement fights invalidates your point. This isn't up for debate. You can say that arcane can still be competitive in every fight. That point seems reasonable. But to say it shouldn't hinder you enough to the point you can't still outperform your peers is false. For them to truly be "peers", this would assume skill is on the same plane. If that's the case, taking the top 100 parses from Raidbots for each spec would show that as "peers" there ARE fights where movement hinders you enough to not top meters.

[mrgreenthump]

If arcane doesnt suffer from movement, then by default it should have >160k dps on every fight on raidbots when you look at top100, and surprice it doesn't.. Sure you can live with arcane as it just happens to do massively more single target dps than any other spec in the game. This will not be the case in 5.2, or at least should not be as blizzard wants to tune down arcane on single target, giving them nothing in return. Even taking our only "cleave" away(fireblast glyph), outside of arcane barrage that is.

[Methusula]

Getting back on track, I tried Invocation Arcane with Fire's all-out crit reforge:

Build: Arcane | Invocation | Crit
Test: 1
Result: 61-63k
Strategy: I used a conservative cycle of a maximum of 2 Arcane Blasts between clearing Charges until about 15 seconds on Invo buff, then burned to OOM and evo'ed back up. Stacks made it to 4 several times with Missiles but I wouldn't cast more than 2 Blasts.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 11:28 PM ----------

Build: Arcane | RoP | Crit
Test: 1
Result: 73-75k
Strategy: build to 4 stacks, saving Missile procs until max stacks unless already at 2 procs. Tried to stay at 4 stacks as long as possible while maintaining 80% + mana. I cleared once I went below with Barrage.

This actually surprised me a bit. I was able to stay at 4 stacks for quite a while much of the time. I was expecting to see lower numbers with the tiny amount of mastery I was rocking.

[Deleted]

I have pretty much spent the entire day (literally) raid testing my Mastery Invo Arcane mage

How do you used cd ? AP+AT at pull with 2 MM proc, AB spam when AP is up ? Then evo 4AB MM ABarr and burn again when evocation buff is going to expire ?

[Shangalar]

Build: Arcane | RoP | Crit
Test: 1
Result: 73-75k
Strategy: build to 4 stacks, saving Missile procs until max stacks unless already at 2 procs. Tried to stay at 4 stacks as long as possible while maintaining 80% + mana. I cleared once I went below with Barrage.

This actually surprised me a bit. I was able to stay at 4 stacks for quite a while much of the time. I was expecting to see lower numbers with the tiny amount of mastery I was rocking.

Arcane has a small amount of spells available so they all hit quite hard and Crits give us a giant boost in that case. Simcraft also puts crit not that far below the other two secondaries.

[KoolKidKaos]

If arcane doesnt suffer from movement, then by default it should have >160k dps on every fight on raidbots when you look at top100, and surprice it doesn't.. Sure you can live with arcane as it just happens to do massively more single target dps than any other spec in the game. This will not be the case in 5.2, or at least should not be as blizzard wants to tune down arcane on single target, giving them nothing in return. Even taking our only "cleave" away(fireblast glyph), outside of arcane barrage that is.

It won't be in the case in 5.2, unless some big changes are made, but as I was stating before DPS on live, is dependent upon many things. If it were equally skilled players in an equally geared raid, doing the same boss, let's say Heroic Blade Lord, you being the resident arcane mage. SHOULD, be top, if not 2nd on the meters. Figuratively speaking that every person plays flawlessly, and doesn't mess up, which is never going to happen obviously. But, point made, you shouldn't perform badly, or way worse than normal.If you don't top rng screwed you, or you goofed. Point is you "should" do very well.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 09:43 AM ----------


This was all at 498 Item level equipped via Premade Troll

Build: Arcane | Invo/NT | Mastery
Test: 2
Result: 72.6k
Strategy: Invo, Used Images, Arcane Blast, Bomb, Proceeded to 4 stacks Used Alter Time Macro(Berserking/AP/Mana Gem), used Missiles > Blast > Missiles > Barrage, followed by Barrage after AT reset. Then started new charge stacking until 4, used any new missiles, followed by barrage. Until either my mana reached 40% or Invo was about to fall off.

Build: Arcane | Invo/NT | Mastery
Test: 1
Result: 62.6k
Strategy: Invo, Used Images, Arcane Blast, Bomb, Proceeded to 4 stacks. Used any Missiles proccd, then barrage. Evo at 30% or if the buff was near conclusion

Build: Arcane | Invo/NT | Haste
Test: 3
Result: 78.6k
Strategy: Invo, Used Images, Lust, Arcane Blast, Bomb, Proceeded to 4 stacks waited for trinket to proc and 2 missiles. Used Alter Time Macro(Berserking/AP/Mana Gem), used Arcane Blast > Missiles > Arcane Blast > Missiles > Barrage, followed by Barrage after NT resets. Then started new charge stacking until 4, used any new missiles, followed by barrage. Until either my mana reached 30% or Invo was about to fall off. Repeated the stack to 4, Missiles if Available and continued to drop with barrage.

Build: Fire | Invo/LB/PoM | Crit
Test: 3
Result: 84k
Strategy: Invo, used Images, Lust, hard cast pyro, LB, casted fireball, fishing for heated up and get double Fireball crits for ignite. Once achieved and trinket procced. Refreshed LB, used Alter Time macro(Berserking/PoM), Double Pyro, one triggered a free Pyro, ignite peaked at 66k, Used Combustion while everything was procced. Hit Alter Time concluded with two more Pyroblasts. Continued with Fireballs, refreshed LB after explosions, and continued normally fishing for heated ups, using Inferno Blast to get pyros.

Build: Fire | Invo/LB/PoM | Crit
Test: 2
Result: 74k
Strategy: Invo, used Images, hard cast pyro, LB, casted fireball, fished for heated up, once achieved, rushed to inferno blast, once I had my hot streak ready, used Alter Time macro(Berserking/PoM), Double Pyro, hit Alter Time, Double Pyro, hit Combustion with a 35k ignite. Refreshed LB, and continued like normal.

[Deleted]

So the dps has been reduced by a lot? I'm doing more than the guy above me with 490 iLvl.

[Deleted]

So the dps has been reduced by a lot? I'm doing more than the guy above me with 490 iLvl.

Tests are done with pvp gear, so you shouldnt pay attention to the numbers, but to the disparity of them.

We're trying to figure out which rotation/stats/talents are optimal .

[zomgDPS]

Tests are done with pvp gear, so you shouldnt pay attention to the numbers, but to the disparity of them.

We're trying to figure out which rotation/stats/talents are optimal .

This.
And on that topic.


Battle Report 2
I have put in some time trying to figure out Invoc Arcane vs RoP Arcane.
This is assuming Invoc is full haste vs RoP is full mastery.

I've personally tested both builds in the new raid and I just cannot find a single reason to take Invoc over RoP. There is a significant and rather clear disparity between the two.


Even on fights with medium movement, RoP is just hands down winning. I've tried many many different Invoc strategies, ranging from straight "never drop stacks AB AM burn" all the way through trying to game the mastery, nothing comes close to the standard, basic ABx4 AM ABr of RoP Mastery Arcane.
Invoc haste is a solid 10k+ DPS behind RoP if played equally well. Heck, I even tried my own 'special' Invoc Mastery Arcane strat (as described in the OP) and even that cannot beat RoP Mastery Arcane.


I think Invocation is just not viable for Arcane at this point. Sure it allows you to be more mobile, but even if you just end up casting RoP every time you move, you still win out with RoP Mastery Arcane.

What I have found though is that a cyclical ABx4 AM ABr version of Invoc Haste Arcane is actually beating the 'traditional' AB spam AMs no stack dropping strategy. It seems ABr will now be used no matter what the talent. However, this point is mute, since anytime you would want to use Invoc Arcane, RoP Arcane would be better.


All that aside, I made some other observations too. Frost is actually quite close to Arcane. On some fights its almost identical. This is assuming the classic IW Haste Frost.
But putting that on one side, Fire is still king. In pretty much every fight, Fire if played right will indeed dominate. I am getting more and more sure of that every test and raid I do.



If any one of you have done some raid testing, your thoughts/observations would be useful right about now.

[mrgreenthump]

This.
And on that topic.


Battle Report 2
I have put in some time trying to figure out Invoc Arcane vs RoP Arcane.
This is assuming Invoc is full haste vs RoP is full mastery.

I've personally tested both builds in the new raid and I just cannot find a single reason to take Invoc over RoP. There is a significant and rather clear disparity between the two.


Even on fights with medium movement, RoP is just hands down winning. I've tried many many different Invoc strategies, ranging from straight "never drop stacks AB AM burn" all the way through trying to game the mastery, nothing comes close to the standard, basic ABx4 AM ABr of RoP Mastery Arcane.
Invoc haste is a solid 10k+ DPS behind RoP if played equally well. Heck, I even tried my own 'special' Invoc Mastery Arcane strat (as described in the OP) and even that cannot beat RoP Mastery Arcane.


I think Invocation is just not viable for Arcane at this point. Sure it allows you to be more mobile, but even if you just end up casting RoP every time you move, you still win out with RoP Mastery Arcane.

What I have found though is that a cyclical ABx4 AM ABr version of Invoc Haste Arcane is actually beating the 'traditional' AB spam AMs no stack dropping strategy. It seems ABr will now be used no matter what the talent. However, this point is mute, since anytime you would want to use Invoc Arcane, RoP Arcane would be better.


All that aside, I made some other observations too. Frost is actually quite close to Arcane. On some fights its almost identical. This is assuming the classic IW Haste Frost.
But putting that on one side, Fire is still king. In pretty much every fight, Fire if played right will indeed dominate. I am getting more and more sure of that every test and raid I do.



If any one of you have done some raid testing, your thoughts/observations would be useful right about now.

Fire being on top in raid fights shouldn't really come as a surprice.. It just far better designed for raiding than either frost or arcane, and well atm it seems like its going scale to heaven with all the crit, but it all remains to be seen and its blizzard and they can just do a 180 and nerf fire again even before it starts. Hell they've been awfully quiet abt mages past week anyways..

[Deleted]

I read almost every post in here, I have to admit that I'd love to see Fire back to be honest. Arcane changes were way too many to be announced 2 weeks before the patch, and they seem to be bad than better for us. I just hope Blizzard don't nerf Fire to the ground again because of their own mistakes/changes. Cuz we have to be somewhere near the top as a pure dps class ....

[mrgreenthump]

I read almost every post in here, I have to admit that I'd love to see Fire back to be honest. Arcane changes were way too many to be announced 2 weeks before the patch, and they seem to be bad than better for us. I just hope Blizzard don't nerf Fire to the ground again because of their own mistakes/changes. Cuz we have to be somewhere near the top as a pure dps class ....

A pure dps with no raid utility mind you..

[Polarthief]

GC:"number tweaking hasn't started yet"

Source please.

[oraz4000]

I read almost every post in here, I have to admit that I'd love to see Fire back to be honest. Arcane changes were way too many to be announced 2 weeks before the patch, and they seem to be bad than better for us. I just hope Blizzard don't nerf Fire to the ground again because of their own mistakes/changes. Cuz we have to be somewhere near the top as a pure dps class ....

Bet they wish they left Arcane alone now such a dumb decision to completely revamp the whole spec soo late in the patch cycle... doubt they care tho.

I honestly never understood the angst of scorch weaving it was a engaging playstyle im my opinion.

[kirit0]

I honestly never understood the angst of scorch weaving it was a engaging playstyle im my opinion.

yea wasn't bad imo

[royals]

I am at work currently and don't have the time... But may be able to set up a google doc later tonight or tomorrow with all the tests side by side in comparison on a spread sheet for easy review. Would LOVE to see that. I wouldn't be able to have one up for 24-36 hours due to high work volume so if anyone else has the time this would be a great tool. If not, I will start working on it and link it later. If someone beats me to it, please make the document available for edit so more people can contribute and make it a living document so in the end we can sort them and make comparable numbers. Just an idea to add the the mostly great information in this thread.

[zomgDPS]

I am at work currently and don't have the time... But may be able to set up a google doc later tonight or tomorrow with all the tests side by side in comparison on a spread sheet for easy review. Would LOVE to see that. I wouldn't be able to have one up for 24-36 hours due to high work volume so if anyone else has the time this would be a great tool. If not, I will start working on it and link it later. If someone beats me to it, please make the document available for edit so more people can contribute and make it a living document so in the end we can sort them and make comparable numbers. Just an idea to add the the mostly great information in this thread.

I was going to collate the information, but I want to hold off till the new PTR patch goes up and we can get some new numbers.

I want to be able to quantify the new nerfs to Arcane. That is partially why I wanted to run these tests now (with the previous PTR build), so that we had some point for relative comparison.

After we get some good testing with the newly nerfed Arcane going, imho that will be a good time to start collecting up all the data and doing comparisons. I'm targeting the weekend as far as starting to get to the analysis phase. We have some pretty good data so far though we will need more.

Best you guys get on the PTR when you can and run some tests and report back.

[Mastamage]

Every time I read more results I become depressed as it is constantly going downhill. Add in the constant number changes that Blizz throws in and it's hard to comprehend their reasoning. I've been focusing on Arcane PTR issues the most so I'm going to shift to Fire and play around with it a little. Granted we have a lot of PVP gear but it should still give a good representation. I may try to compile some of this information into a spreadsheet and compare it, but like zomgdps said it's pointless until blizz sends in final numbers.

[Deleted]

Every time I read more results I become depressed as it is constantly going downhill. Add in the constant number changes that Blizz throws in and it's hard to comprehend their reasoning. I've been focusing on Arcane PTR issues the most so I'm going to shift to Fire and play around with it a little. Granted we have a lot of PVP gear but it should still give a good representation. I may try to compile some of this information into a spreadsheet and compare it, but like zomgdps said it's pointless until blizz sends in final numbers.

Go to the Big cow by the VP/JP vendor in Townlong and you'll get nice shiny T15!

[KoolKidKaos]

Dummies Trial - 511 Equipped - Troll - Regular Essence and Heroic LoC for trinkets

Build: Arcane | RoP/NT | Mastery
Test: 2
Result: 101k
Strategy: Rune, Images, Arcane Blast, NT, continued to stack charges til 4, Alter Time Macro (Berserking/Arcane Power) Missiles, Blast, Missiles, Barrage. Alter Time reset, Missles, Missles, Barrage. Refreshed Bomb, then continued to stack to 4, using missiles at 2 or 3(if any were available). Dropping stacks at 4 with barrage. Mana Gem at 70%, keep rune refreshed at 2 seconds remaining.

Build: Arcane | RoP/NT | Mastery
Test: 3
Result: 111k
Strategy: Same Strat ^


Build: Arcane | RoP/NT | Mastery - 3 Minutes
Test: 1
Result: 88k
Strategy: Rune, Images, Stacked charges to 4, used missiles on 2 or 3 stacks if available, dropped stacks with barrage. Repeat, mana gem if I ever dipped to 75%. Refresh rune at 2 seconds remaining.