Lava Burst Blue Post

[Griffeth]

I dont know about challenge modes, but from what I have heard it isnt all about burning down the adds but more controlling them as you are reduced down to 463 ilvl stats.

[Kralljin]

I dont know about challenge modes, but from what I have heard it isnt all about burning down the adds but more controlling them as you are reduced down to 463 ilvl stats.

You still spent most of the time AoE'ing them down while Tank is chaining CD's, chaining Stuns and starts kiting.

[Eruionmel]

Did a quick check to make sure the new changes are live, and they are. So I'm headed to a dummy to do another quick test. Will post results shortly.

Edit:

Good news, people. The changes were actually fairly significant. The first thing I'll point out is that LB makes up a much larger percentage of our damage now. Mine is sitting at 30%, with LvB at 42%. What this means is that our sustained DPS during the periods outside of ascendance are going to be more predictable and consistent. It also means that if we have to stop or forgoe casting a LvB because we have to move immediately, our DPS will not suffer as large of a hit because the moving LB will do more damage than it did before.

The second thing is the numbers in general. I pulled 102k unbuffed on the dummy (and actually had to pop BL mid-ascendance because I'd changed a keybinding and popped SR instead of BL; not a big deal, but a small loss). That's very close to our theoretical max DPS on live fully raid buffed. 102k is a nearly 15% overall increase from my live numbers, which is pretty phenomenal. It's exactly what we've been needing and asking for. It's an 8.5% increase from the last buff that they gave us. Not only that, the current T14 pc buffs a spell that is a fairly low percentage of our damage (around 7% on my test, with the 4pc; probably around 4% without). The new T15 4pc buffs what is arguably our highest contributing DPS spell in the game, ascendance. It can only get better with the new set bonus.

I told you guys we were gonna be good this tier.

[beuwulf]

would like to see mbe where st put a stacking debuff on target capped at like 5x, which would increase the damge of next lvb. would not impact pvp much unless your going against someone who lets your totem smack them for everever with out stomping it.

[Zues]

Did a quick check to make sure the new changes are live, and they are. So I'm headed to a dummy to do another quick test. Will post results shortly.

Edit:

Good news, people. The changes were actually fairly significant. The first thing I'll point out is that LB makes up a much larger percentage of our damage now. Mine is sitting at 30%, with LvB at 42%. What this means is that our sustained DPS during the periods outside of ascendance are going to be more predictable and consistent. It also means that if we have to stop or forgoe casting a LvB because we have to move immediately, our DPS will not suffer as large of a hit because the moving LB will do more damage than it did before.

The second thing is the numbers in general. I pulled 102k unbuffed on the dummy (and actually had to pop BL mid-ascendance because I'd changed a keybinding and popped SR instead of BL; not a big deal, but a small loss). That's very close to our theoretical max DPS on live fully raid buffed. 102k is a nearly 15% overall increase from my live numbers, which is pretty phenomenal. It's exactly what we've been needing and asking for. It's an 8.5% increase from the last buff that they gave us. Not only that, the current T14 pc buffs a spell that is a fairly low percentage of our damage (around 7% on my test, with the 4pc; probably around 4% without). The new T15 4pc buffs what is arguably our highest contributing DPS spell in the game, ascendance. It can only get better with the new set bonus.

I told you guys we were gonna be good this tier.

I've followed most of this thread casually, but I'd like to step in and thank you for your contributions throughout it <3

[Eruionmel]

I've followed most of this thread casually, but I'd like to step in and thank you for your contributions throughout it <3

No problem. I'm eagerly awaiting Blink's thoughts on the matter, as his predictions for the tier were significantly more dire than mine. I'm curious to know whether he thinks the changes are going to be enough to put us in the middle of the pack this time. Despite the rather negative anecdotal stuff flying around in the 5.2 changes thread, I personally don't think we're going to be out of the average. I doubt we'll be as high as I was thinking a week ago, as there have been a lot more buffs to other classes than I had anticipated, but I do think we'll be somewhere in the same area that Enh was for T14.

Edit: I should point out again, by the way, for anyone who reads my posts on the numbers changes, that I do run PE/EotE on live and the PTR. 14% for me may be a completely different number for someone running, say, EB/EM.

[Endus]

No problem. I'm eagerly awaiting Blink's thoughts on the matter, as his predictions for the tier were significantly more dire than mine. I'm curious to know whether he thinks the changes are going to be enough to put us in the middle of the pack this time. Despite the rather negative anecdotal stuff flying around in the 5.2 changes thread, I personally don't think we're going to be out of the average. I doubt we'll be as high as I was thinking a week ago, as there have been a lot more buffs to other classes than I had anticipated, but I do think we'll be somewhere in the same area that Enh was for T14.

Edit: I should point out again, by the way, for anyone who reads my posts on the numbers changes, that I do run PE/EotE on live and the PTR. 14% for me may be a completely different number for someone running, say, EB/EM.

I'm a little pessimistic, but I think the range overall will be tighter in 5.2.

Looking at the 5.1 data, it's about a 10-15% difference between top and bottom. That range is the issue; we're say 15% behind the "top" spec. If they narrow that range to about 5%, we might still be dead last, but that's still a major increase in our relative performance; that would leave us slightly ahead of the middle on the current distribution. If those specs in the middle (like Enhancement and Frost DKs) are "okay", then if we're at that same relative distance behind in absolute DPS, we're also okay. Even if we're dead last, still.

For instance, here's the 25(H) All Parses chart as of today, numbers included, since I want a set image of data to work with in case there's still discussion later on when numbers change (and my point is about math and theory, not the specific values);



Now, ignoring Combat Rogues at the top there because they're way out for gimmick reasons in the data, let's label Arcane, at 124,765 DPS on average, as "100%". That's the maximum you can expect to achieve. This means BM hunters, at the bottom, are at ~84.1%. That's an almost 16% spread, from top to bottom. The mid-point between those extremes would be about 115k, at 92% of the max.

So, if everyone got tuned, buffed and nerfed as needed, so that the spread of DPS shrank to about 8%, and the top DPS remained at 100%, if Elemental were still dead last, we'd be dead last but at 92%, not 85%, of the top DPS. That's a major bump up for us, even if we didn't overtake anyone. It would mean that, in that chart, we're performing roughly on par with Fury Warriors and Shadow Priests. That's probably "okay". Still dead last and up for a buff, but serviceable and competitive.

Everyone in an Olympic race is "competitive". Even if they come dead last. What we should be pursuing primarily is narrowing the spread from top to bottom, not worrying about individual rankings within the spread. If the spread widened but we moved up, that's actually a bad thing for class balance overall, even if it's a good thing for us specifically.


As for the specific data from the PTR, I'm not willing to make firm claims. I think we'll still be near the bottom, but the spread looks like it's shrinking somewhat. There's a lot of changes, though, and I want hard data before I make any firm claims, and individual raid attempts on the PTR aren't "data".

[Zues]

Damn. When's the last time you saw Enhance higher than Ele? Shame I'm not into melee, but good for them

[Eruionmel]

Damn. When's the last time you saw Enhance higher than Ele? Shame I'm not into melee, but good for them

It looks a lot different on 10H. 25s favor melee because there are more ranged to do the dirty work. Ele and enhance are almost neck and neck on 10H, and also not quite as bad off as in 25s.

[Zues]

Ahhh. I've never raided competitively in a 25 man, that definitely explains it. You're like a super answer machine <3