Who's more "evil" as of now: Orcs or the Forsaken?

[Combatbutler]

You make a good point. They seem pissed off that they weren't in control more so than being remorseful over what they did.

Exactly, which is why they can be held somewhat responsible, since they hardly show remorse, quite the opposite actually.

[Aquamonkey]

Exactly, which is why they can be held somewhat responsible, since they hardly show remorse, quite the opposite actually.

It makes them dicks, but they're still innocent. Even if they would have willingly invaded Azeroth without the Curse, they weren't given that choice.

[Scummer]

The Orcs can't be held responsible for their actions while intoxicated because they didn't intoxicate themselves by choice. They thought it was steroids.

Again "We brought this curse upon ourselves!".
The Orc's aren't wholly responsible but saying they're innocent is just being ignorant when Grom said otherwise.

[Deleted]

It makes them dicks, but they're still innocent. Even if they would have willingly invaded Azeroth without the Curse, they weren't given that choice.

They weren't under some mind control spell. They did it willingly. And even the drinking of the blood happened willingly.

Again "We brought this curse upon ourselves!".
The Orc's aren't wholly responsible but saying they're innocent is just being ignorant when Grom said otherwise.

Exactly.

[Scummer]

They willingly drank the blood, but they didn't know it would intoxicate them and make them slaves to the Legion. Only Gul'dan knew this.

Which is part of the point. They are still guilty. There are degrees of guilt, I'm not saying they're absolutely 100% guilty of their actions, but they are still guilty.

If the driver is involuntarily intoxicated (as in their drink was spiked), yes they are innocent. Prosecutors will go after the person who spiked the drink.

You really can't compare spiking a drink to what the Orcs did when they knew (mostly) what they were getting themselves into.

[Aquamonkey]

Again "We brought this curse upon ourselves!".
The Orc's aren't wholly responsible but saying they're innocent is just being ignorant when Grom said otherwise.

They weren't under some mind control spell. They did it willingly. And even the drinking of the blood happened willingly.

They didn't willingly intoxicate themselves. Yes, they chose to drink the Blood out of a lust for power, but Gul'dan lied to them about what it did. He told them it was steroids, he didn't tell them it would make them slaves to the Legion.

[Scummer]

They didn't willingly intoxicate themselves. Yes, they chose to drink the Blood out of a lust for power, but Gul'dan lied to them about what it did. He told them it was steroids, he didn't tell them it would make them slaves to the Legion.

"To pretend it the did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it."

-Thrall

So far we have Thrall and Grom saying the Orcs are guilty.

[Deleted]

I dunno. The Royal Apothecary Society (at least pre-WotLK) NPCs in the Apothecarium used to say stuff about their plague being designed to exterminate all life on Azeroth. Or maybe it was a cure for their condition that they were allegedly working on, but turned out to be the plague (with the same objective of killing everyone/thing but the Forsaken).

I kind of do think that the Forsaken are more evil, but I like them that way. I like their moustache-twirling, Machiavellian-style schemes and plots. It makes them one of the most interesting factions to follow, and I can't wait to see what the next part of their story is.

Oh, there are certainly exceptions to the rule I propose (the Forsaken only being as evil as is required to secure Lordaeron) and many of them can/could be found in the Royal Apothecary Society. But, even then, you can find some grey/good Forsaken within their ranks, like Apothecary Thedra, the caring (not completely empathy-void!) chemist in Eversong Woods who helps adventurers save a dying blood elf courier.

It's a little unfair to judge the Forsaken generally by the activities of the Apothecary Society, especially those involved in Putress' coup attempt who were acting against Sylvanas and represented a minority group of extremists, because the Society is an organisation to which joining would appeal to the more depraved, spiteful and malevolent members of Forsaken society. They may have a strong presence in questing, as they are one of the groups more actively involved in front-line operations and field research, but that doesn't mean they or their MO represent a majority in Forsaken society. To compare an average Forsaken citizen to the more wicked Apothecaries feels like comparing a rank-and-file Soviet soldier with NKVD agents the likes of Vasili Blokhin.

Many of them, quite possibly the majority, seem to have lost much of their empathy, at least when it comes to members of Alliance races, but I don't that think qualifies them as being evil. Just cold and ruthless.

[Aquamonkey]

Which is part of the point. They are still guilty. There are degrees of guilt, I'm not saying they're absolutely 100% guilty of their actions, but they are still guilty.

You really can't compare spiking a drink to what the Orcs did when they knew (mostly) what they were getting themselves into.

No, they didn't. They had no idea what they were getting themselves into. Only Gul'dan, Ner'zhul, and Durotan knew. Because Durotan knew, he didn't drink and forbade his clan from drinking. This shows that if the other chieftains had known, they wouldn't have drank the Blood.

[Deleted]

They didn't willingly intoxicate themselves. Yes, they chose to drink the Blood out of a lust for power, but Gul'dan lied to them about what it did. He told them it was steroids, he didn't tell them it would make them slaves to the Legion.

At what point did they think drinking a demon's blood is a good idea?

In what way were they slaves of the Legion though? Could Mannoroth perform mind control on orcs who drank the blood? As far as I see it, the Blood Curse keeps them in a constant state of aggressiveness.

A Blood Curse, also known as the Blood Pact, is when an orc or group of orcs consume the demonic blood of a powerful pit lord to gain supernatural strength, speed, resilience and stamina. The effects as well as side effects are immediate, and the symptoms that manifest from blood consumption are green skin, glowing red eyes and a considerable increase in size. Further exposure and physical change cause the skin to turn red, a greater increase in body mass, green/purple eyes, extra tusks and bone growth that breaks the skin.
Orcs under the Blood Curse are in a constant state of aggression and violence, and maintaining normal composure requires considerable self-control.

The Legion didn't enslave them as much as they just took them, made them stronger, made it harder for them to control themselves and used their natural lust for battle and killing and then aimed them at a certain direction. They didn't put them on leashes and cracked whips at them. The orcs were free to do what they wanted. Well as far as their bloodlust allowed it.

[zotob]

Their sole purpose was revenge against the LK. Once that happened, their sole purpose is survival. Sylvanas saw a vision of the future where they were invaded and exterminated by the Alliance. They are just securing their territory to ensure their survival.

Their methods may be sinister and taken too far on the torture, but they are doing it for self preservation.

THIS!!!
No race is more evil than human!
Forsakens are just defending them self from extintion and alliance wants them dead.
So please, I know that OP is playing alliance but this doesn't mean you are good and Horde is awful.
In this game there are no good and evil factions but just two faction in war between them.
I remember one of the first quests in MOP alliance side where the captain of the ship killed all the orcs trying to swim to the coast...is this a good action?

[Aquamonkey]

"To pretend it the did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it."

-Thrall

So far we have Thrall and Grom saying the Orcs are guilty.

Claiming responsibility doesn't make them guilty. There is legal precedent, IRL, for this kind of thing. The intoxicated party is not guilty in cases of involuntary intoxication.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 07:21 AM ----------

At what point did they think drinking a demon's blood is a good idea?

It is when your trusted leader lies and tells you it makes you harder, better, faster, stronger.

In what way were they slaves of the Legion though? Could Mannoroth perform mind control on orcs who drank the blood? As far as I see it, the Blood Curse keeps them in a constant state of aggressiveness.

The Legion didn't enslave them as much as they just took them, made them stronger, made it harder for them to control themselves and used their natural lust for battle and killing and then aimed them at a certain direction. They didn't put them on leashes and cracked whips at them. The orcs were free to do what they wanted. Well as far as their bloodlust allowed it.

"Gul'dan swallowed hard. He did not dare glance at Ner'zhul, whose gaze he felt boring into his back.
Yes, he knew well what Kil’jaeden was offering. Power beyond imagining . . . and slavery for eternity. Kil’jaeden had offered the former to Ner'zhul in exchange for the latter, and Ner'zhul, the coward, had balked. He had not wanted to doom his people. Gul'dan was untroubled by such scruples." (Rise of the Horde). Primary source trumps WoWpedia.

[Scummer]

Claiming responsibility doesn't make them guilty.

Yes it does.

Again "We chose this path, we orcs." if that't not admitting guilt then what is?

[Aquamonkey]

Yes it does.

Again "We chose this path, we orcs." if that't not admitting guilt then what is?

No, it doesn't. Saying you are guilty is not the same as actually being guilty.

[Scummer]

No, it doesn't. Saying you are guilty is not the same as actually being guilty.

Why would the Orcs and notably Thrall and Grom lie?
This isn't a court case btw. You're trying to white wash a race that have admitted their guilt for their actions. You are deliberately making this more complicated than it is.

[Ascius]

I don't know maybe Forks?

Well to tell the truth I don't think any of them are truly evil. There are certain individuals who may be/are evil and they are in control, but as people/society they are not pure evil or pure good, cmon, humans/elves, etc... they are as crazy as forsaken or orcs.

[Sixax]

There is a quest to kill human farmers in Tirisfal that specifically states that the farmers have not attacked the forsaken, but they might attack them. Also that humans are a slime that should be cleansed from the earth or something along those lines. It seems like that kind of reasoning can 'justify' killing anyone and anything for your own benefit. In his conversation with Saurfang in WotLK, Garrosh tries to justify the killing of draenei children because those children could've grown up to be enemies of the orcs. I will never consider that kind of logic to be 'good' or justified. That said, there are definitely good forsaken individuals. But questing through the forsaken starting zones in Cata it seemed to me that most of the NPCs were specifically written to be vengeful and merciless haters of the living who work for Sylvanas's glorious vision of the world, which I assume means the forsaken control everything and all the living are dead/enslaved. In Sylvanas's leader short story it even makes clear that she doesn't care about the forsaken themselves, she just needs to use them as a shield to avoid her own end.

[Aquamonkey]

Why would the Orcs and notably Thrall and Grom lie?

This isn't a court case btw. You're trying to white wash a race that have admitted their guilt for their actions.

Really? You're going to take Thrall's testimony? His clan didn't even drink the blood and he wasn't even born yet when it happened. How can he be guilty of these things?

They just don't like the idea of being so weak that they were enslaved by the Legion.

[Scummer]

Really? You're going to take Thrall's testimony? His clan didn't even drink the blood and he wasn't even born yet when it happened. How can he be guilty of these things?

Let's use Grom's then.

They just don't like the idea of being so weak that they were enslaved by the Legion.

If they didn't like thinking of themselves as weak they'd be blaming the legion.

[BrerBear]

It makes them dicks, but they're still innocent. Even if they would have willingly invaded Azeroth without the Curse, they weren't given that choice.

Here's how Durotan, who did not drink the blood, closes out Rise of the Horde:

“The cries were deafening. The crowd surged forward. Even Durotan found himself caught up in the thrill of a new world, so lush and ripe and ready for the taking. Perhaps his worry was misplaced; perhaps this would indeed be a new beginning. Durotan loved his clan, loved his people. He wanted to see them thrive. And he, like all orcs even before this moment, reveled in the kill.
Perhaps it would all be well.
Axe in hand, hope flourishing in his heart, Durotan joined in the race toward the Portal, toward this place called Azeroth. He lifted his arms and raised the cry that was on the lips of every orc as they surged forward:
“For the Horde!”

The invasion was by choice, blood or not.

Still voted Forsaken, though.