Harder Content = Better?

[judgementofantonidas]

The problem might just be that instead of the stadard RPG formula of "get more numbers" blizzard have made the raids into 10/25 man super mario/gimmick fights.

Getting more numbers is easy to do, and allows for progression to be maintained. Gimmick fights remain gimmicky. Co ordinating many people into doing the right dance steps at the right time remains a pain in the arse - and unless you are severely overgearing it you have to.

So harder in the old school RPG (get your arse kicked, gear up, come back and then win) sense might be better and "co ordinate 9 or 24 other peoples into pressing the right buttons at the right time" might be the sort of harder that's detrimental. Depends what you want.

amen brother

[Deleted]

Definition of ENTITLEMENT

1

a: the state or condition of being entitled : right
b: a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract

2

: a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also: funds supporting or distributed by such a program

3

: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges




All of which apply to the majority of players in the "it's too hard make it easier" camp

And none of which apply to the "stop making it easier make people earn it" camp

so actually. no. I expect to earn my progress throughout any content that I approach not have it given to me by right of my fifteen dollar a month payment.

Entitled in the sense of "i've paid you for fun, where the fuck is it?" is what we are talking about here.

Miost people don't equate difficulty with fun. They never have, they never will.

[Thage]

All of which apply to the majority of players in the "it's too hard make it easier" camp

And none of which apply to the "stop making it easier make people earn it" camp

so actually. no. I expect to earn my progress throughout any content that I approach not have it given to me by right of my fifteen dollar a month payment.

From your own post:
"3

: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges"
Believing that casuals do not deserve to raid, or that only people of your skill level and above should be catered to with the lion's share of the game's budget, fits that definition so snugly you can see its balls through the leather pants.

[Tomana]

belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges

Yeah. Some people in WoW believe that their must have "their" content which is financed by 90+% of "bottom-feeders" who have no right to step in "their" content. Sound about right.

[Otimus]

I am one of those players who insults it. Not because I am anything more than an average player. Not because I can perform heroic raids, right now my guild cannot. But because it takes raiding to much too easy of a level. I could almost understand it as training wheels for the almost raid ready if it used THE SAME mechanics as the raid it was meant to mimic but to a lesser degree fatal. But it doesn't.


For instance, we are stuck at Ambershaper. We are stuck because some but not the majority of my players just cannot grasp the construct mechanics and repeatedly miss interupts. If it were required to do those mechanics in LFR instead of amber explosion being easily healable I could simply ask my players to go practice in LFR. But they cannot becuase the mechics do not matter and fewer people even get turned in to a construct in LFR. Hell, most of my players with issues have even stated that they tried to go learn but never get turned into one.


I could even more fully support LFR if it was what Blizzard said it would be and was only a LOOK at what raiding is, but again it is not becuase it drops gear and watered down tier gear at that once again dragging the raiders back into the picture to try and more quickly get their set bonuses while building up animosity towards the segment of players who cannot even hadle raid finder difficulty.

1) Gear is content. It's the lifeblood of an MMO/RPG. Unless it's purely prestige ALL content has to provide a reason to do it (i.e. to improve your character.)
2) You can't make content very few people will do and see. You understand that, right? That's why it had to be made. Would you be happy if they went into the opposite direction, and just flat stopped making raids? It'd of made absolutely fine financial sense not to. But instead, they just found a way to use that content on other people. What's baffling, though, is it took them 7 years :x

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 11:18 PM ----------

Yeah. Some people in WoW believe that their must have "their" content which is financed by 90+% of "bottom-feeders" who have no right to step in "their" content. Sound about right.

Exactly what I meant right there.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 11:18 PM ----------

Entitled in the sense of "i've paid you for fun, where the fuck is it?" is what we are talking about here.

Miost people don't equate difficulty with fun. They never have, they never will.

Yeah, seriously. Hell, WoW became the success it was by being the easiest MMO on the market, back when it was new. I remember Everquest players making fun of it for it, even.

[judgementofantonidas]

I'm not saying it wasn't fun. It was - in a guild group. In LFD, it was often a nightmare starting from the very first packs, especially if some players cheated their ilvl in the instance.

That's the main problem with early Cata heroics - if you add LFD, then you must expect content to be done by 5 perfect strangers. Obviously, a guild group will steamroll through it.

And that is why after seven years of game play I am so firmly behind guild activities. They are what the game is designed around. When I first started playing WOW I was like "wft do I have to group with peope, why can I not just be left alone". Now I know. If you play WOW with the opinion that you should be able to do everything solo you may in the wrong place. Catering to that "majority" will not solve anything. WOW is a MMORPG massively multiplayer online role-playing game. It is designed for people to work together coopertively to achieve common goals. At the raid level those goals should be harder to achieve than at the growing your farm stage.

[Endus]

And none of which apply to the "stop making it easier make people earn it" camp

I never try and name-and-shame people over their progression, but I notice that your sig seems to connect to your character and guild. And that it broadcasts that you're 10/16 so far.

So, you haven't cleared the content, yet. There's still more progression that you and your guild can do. You haven't beaten the difficulty level you choose to play on. So, you're enjoying earning your progression on the harder difficulty setting.

So why does it make any difference to you whatsoever if people beat it on "Easy"? How does that have any effect on what you're doing? Clearly, the content isn't "too easy", or you'd have been 16/16 Heroic by now.

[ElvenArcher]

Diablo 3's Inferno content is harder.

It's not better.

It's as hard to farm loot for Inferno as it was to farm gear for pre-BC raiding.

It still isn't better.

Harder =/= better.

[AyuZ]

There's many underlying problems with the community as a whole that also affects Blizz's actions.

The majority of us are just damn lazy. When LFD was first implemented you need to have found the entrance to the dungeon first, which was okay, but now they just removed that overall and a goood chunk of the population honestly doesn't even probably know where this dungeon their clearing even is. It's, like I've stated, mindless slapping of trash packs and gimmicky tank and spank bosses. Blizzard COULD engage you more into the world, instill that journey, by making LFD find you a group, but you have to go to the instance still, of your choosing. This is completely possible now due to CRZ's and CR grouping.

It's just dumb now, all this game is now is menus menus and menus. You sit in your capital all pretty and dandy and get ported everywhere as you effortlessly get gear, while your home location is back at the capital. You get ported to BGs, Dungeons, now Raids, Scenarios, literally it's quite unbelievable, are we really this lazy? Gone are the days of choosing to make a boss into heroic mode (Ulduar robot boss.. kill heart or don't?..............Hit lever to make that one boss go insane, insane damage, forget boss name). Now it's just a drop down menu and you select heroic mode. They are also implementing now a drop down menu to choose which faction you want rep from for doing a dungeon LFD. I see blizzard mention that people arn't getting into the world as much as they want, but they go and do this. The World (Of Warcraft) doesn't seem as big and vast as it used to.. Since you are teleported to every place and sit in a city all day, or fly around on your precious mount and look at a skybox.

[nekobaka]

Average players didn't raid at all. Raid participation was way down from Wrath. The raid population was small in T11, and got smaller going into T12.

Can you provide a source for that please. Apparently my memory is a bit off as I remember over 20% raider participation in T11 and T10 not being much larger than that in terms of players who hit 9/12 bosses. My realm still had a lot of PuG raids after the first month of Cata and was strong until LFR came out and made trade chat barren.

Yeah, seriously. Hell, WoW became the success it was by being the easiest MMO on the market, back when it was new.

It was the easiest in terms of grind and Classic still had a lot of grind in it compared to later expansion. The bulk of the content for both WoW and Everquest was not hard in terms of difficulty level. Going casual did not mean lowering the difficulty level. Going casual meant cutting out the grind so that those with jobs and a family could reach level cap way before the next expansion and get to see end game content.

[judgementofantonidas]

From your own post:
"3

: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges"
Believing that casuals do not deserve to raid, or that only people of your skill level and above should be catered to with the lion's share of the game's budget, fits that definition so snugly you can see its balls through the leather pants.

you are simply twisting a written in black and white defenition to suit your arguement. as it states "entitled to certain priveledges". not one raider has ever claimed entitlement as the reason for their dislike of raid finder while an overwhelming majority have stated thier subscription fee as the reason they feel entitled to keep it.

[Osmeric]

There's many underlying problems with the community as a whole that also affects Blizz's actions.

The majority of us are just damn lazy.

That's not a problem of the community. That's a problem you have with the community.

[Thage]

you are simply twisting a written in black and white defenition to suit your arguement. as it states "entitled to certain priveledges". not one raider has ever claimed entitlement as the reason for their dislike of raid finder while an overwhelming majority have stated thier subscription fee as the reason they feel entitled to keep it.

Or maybe you're simply unwilling to admit that demanding the majority of a budget be catered to a minority demographic is the very image of that third definition; to benefit while 90%+ of the player base pays for your enjoyment with nothing to show for it themselves but second-class citizenship relegated to 5-man and BG content.

[Otimus]

And that is why after seven years of game play I am so firmly behind guild activities. They are what the game is designed around. When I first started playing WOW I was like "wft do I have to group with peope, why can I not just be left alone". Now I know. If you play WOW with the opinion that you should be able to do everything solo you may in the wrong place. Catering to that "majority" will not solve anything. WOW is a MMORPG massively multiplayer online role-playing game. It is designed for people to work together coopertively to achieve common goals. At the raid level those goals should be harder to achieve than at the growing your farm stage.

What you're saying the "game is designed around" and what the actual players want to do is entirely different from one another. So the game has to cater to that, not say "Don't like it? Tough.". That's a damned good way to stop making money :x

By and large, it is clear that the people who want to do the latter are a very small portion. Most people just want to turn the game on and queue for something, then turn it off. That may not be what the game was initially designed for, but that's where it is now. You can't just toss those people out. You'd be saying goodbye to a few million subscribers.

Remember, people who do things as a guild -at all- are a minority in this game. This is not a new thing. This has been fact since the game was new. Slowly, the game has evolved to that concept, while making concessions for a minority, and STILL giving them most of the preferential status, bizarrely enough. I don't see what your problem is, other than wanting to take things away from a larger group of people than you for no good reason other than you want to take things away from people.

[judgementofantonidas]

Entitled in the sense of "i've paid you for fun, where the fuck is it?" is what we are talking about here.

Miost people don't equate difficulty with fun. They never have, they never will.

not even supporting that arguement with that post. supporting the fact that the only players that feel entitled and have expressed their entitlement are the players that continue to insist that their subscription fee entitles them to be able to down content.

[Endus]

you are simply twisting a written in black and white defenition to suit your arguement. as it states "entitled to certain priveledges". not one raider has ever claimed entitlement as the reason for their dislike of raid finder while an overwhelming majority have stated thier subscription fee as the reason they feel entitled to keep it.

If you don't like Raid Finder, don't use it. How is it an issue if you just don't bother to use it? They're developing content for ALL their players, not just a minority segment. That's why pet battles were pretty darned popular; hardcore players didn't care, but a lot of other people did.

All Raid Finder does is let a larger percentage of the population experience the raid content, by adding an additional easier difficulty setting. It doesn't in any way change the experience of the higher difficulties.

[Tomana]

I really don't see why people still argue about Cata heroic.

Because some people still whine about "bring back BC difficulty and raiding plxplx QQ". And the Cata heroics are an example of how the community would react these days if Blizz attempted to do so.

[judgementofantonidas]

Or maybe you're simply unwilling to admit that demanding the majority of a budget be catered to a minority demographic is the very image of that third definition; to benefit while 90%+ of the player base pays for your enjoyment with nothing to show for it themselves but second-class citizenship relegated to 5-man and BG content.

my subscription pays for farmville, poke man, pew pew pew jump jump jump or shortened pvp, but I do not make the statement that those activies should cease based merely on the premise that my fifteen dollars entitles me to take it away from people. My fifteen dollars also pays for challenging end game content, more challenging than I can currently achieve yet I also do not jump on the bandwagon of "hey blizz my fifteen dollars isn't paying for this frustration". I would simply find something else to do with my time rather than contribute to ruining the game.

[Prokne]

So harder in the old school RPG (get your arse kicked, gear up, come back and then win) sense might be better and "co ordinate 9 or 24 other peoples into pressing the right buttons at the right time" might be the sort of harder that's detrimental. Depends what you want.

Personnally I consider the "coordination and skill" model to be harder and more rewarding. The gear model is basically spend a lot of time getting gear, dont change anything about how you do the encounter, just keep hitting 1-2 buttons until you have enough stats to outdamage your opponent. So you really dont improve anything besides maybe how fast you hit 2 buttons.

The other model requires you to improve your own skill, tactics, and thinking rather than just mindless gear grinding. It also means you arent guaranteed to ever be successful at the content so when you are it feels better because you know you improved because of you and not the stats.

A lot of people confuse hard with "takes a lot of time." If it was real life work we would call this tedious or busy work.

[Anonymitylol]

I like how casuals are calling hardcores egotistical and hardcores are calling casuals bad players when both sides are being highly entitled children. This thread is highly moronic, is it so wrong to have content for everyone? No? Well guess that's all there is to this thread, but the egotistical playerbase of BOTH sides enjoy dragging it out.