Harder Content = Better?

[Crashdummy]

As long as heroics as a whole arent castrated too much I'm for the most part happy.
Regarding LFR, I'm open to the concept, but I do think LFD and LFR should have been restricted to your server at the end of the day.
But that ties more into community rather than difficulty.



So let me see if I got this right-You think if blizzard doesnt run around with a cleaver nerf, casuals will quit in mass because they can't see every boss on heroic, correct? Feel free to correct me but that is what I'm getting out of this right now.

LFD WAS Constrained to its own server when it launched and brought bid problems and disparitie betweenr ealms, which is NOT fine.

They learned the leason, which is why LFR is cross server.

The community was crap long before LFD was introduced.

About heroic raids, why would they castrate them?

[Stuffs]

About heroic raids, why would they castrate them?

They've been nerfed habitually in the past, to varying degrees. The premise of "opening up content", or they felt people hit a plateau. But rather than nerfing a specific mechanic at that(lets say only mechanic X is holding up the players progression), they end up nerfing everything. ICC was the worst offender in that regard, along with DS.
I've been pretty happy with this tier as a whole though, and Im pretty psyched for Trollduar.

And I don't think LFD wouldn't need fine tuning if it was server only, I just have a different idealization about that whole premise to begin with.

[yjmark]

And I don't think LFD wouldn't need fine tuning if it was server only, I just have a different idealization about that whole premise to begin with.

LFD would not work if it was server only. Now, if they included a "server only" option, I think that would be cool. However, I also think you would quickly see how most people would not use that option as it would drastically increase queue times.

[Stuffs]

LFD would not work if it was server only. Now, if they included a "server only" option, I think that would be cool. However, I also think you would quickly see how most people would not use that option as it would drastically increase queue times.

Eh, its a lost cause I don't really care about anymore, its mostly a "what if" scenario, right up there with cheese filled sausage not tasting like shit.

[Grogo]

Raids should be designed for the middle. Not the top 10% hardcore guilds nor for those who want it easy. It should take some effort and you should feel good as a team to get it down.

[judgementofantonidas]

Eh, its a lost cause I don't really care about anymore, its mostly a "what if" scenario, right up there with cheese filled sausage not tasting like shit.

I suggest you get your sausages out of the supermarket and not floating down the sewer. Cheese filled brots are awesome.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 11:14 AM ----------

does not want to or cannot do difficult content.

Then don't. And quit complaining that you cannot. Seems very strait forward.

[Stuffs]

I suggest you get your sausages out of the supermarket and not floating down the sewer. Cheese filled brots are awesome.

Close, it was a horrible adventure to WinCo

[Toxigen]

Cheese filled brots are awesome

This.

Wanna know what else was awesome? Killing M'uru before the huge nerf after over 250 attempts...only to watch Sunwell general chat flooded with mouth breathers two weeks later killing these same bosses that took us months to do.

That pattern has continued since then to hold the subscriptions of those that don't put forth effort in improving their gameplay and just want spoon-fed loot from easy encounters. This is what the MMO community has been reduced to - pure rubbish.

Again, read: http://flavortextlore.wordpress.com/...ecline-of-wow/

Back in 2000, Asheron's Call / EQ / UO were the big three. 75% of today's MMO players wouldn't have made it to 50 hours worth of /played before quitting.

[Osmeric]

So let me see if I got this right-You think if blizzard doesnt run around with a cleaver nerf, casuals will quit in mass because they can't see every boss on heroic, correct? Feel free to correct me but that is what I'm getting out of this right now.

I'm saying overtuning content demonstrably does lead to subscription losses. Early Cataclysm proved that (lies from the lying liars notwithstanding.)

It's not currently as bad as that, because there is LFR, but there is a difficulty "hole" for lesser guilds that want to do organized content.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 04:23 PM ----------

Then don't. And quit complaining that you cannot. Seems very strait forward.

The same sort of silly argument was used in early Cataclysm. Lots of people quit. Developers cannot resort to your kind of silly irrelevancy.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 04:25 PM ----------

About heroic raids, why would they castrate them?

Possibily the would do so if they decided the benefit of maintaining them in their current state would not be worth the cost that would impose on the rest of the design.

For example, suppose they decided they needed to nerf normal modes, and didn't want too large a gap between normal and heroic raids. Heroic nerfs would follow.

[Stuffs]

I'm saying overtuning content demonstrably does lead to subscription losses. Early Cataclysm proved that (lies from the lying liars notwithstanding.)

It's not currently as bad as that, because there is LFR, but there is a difficulty "hole" for lesser guilds that want to do organized content.

They're called normals. They're decently tuned, yet easy enough for the average player to do them without much trouble.

This.

Taste the processed meat things

[Grogo]

Think of it like this, you don’t want the wings to flap too hard, meaning the right and left wings.

I do not think raids should be easier but I do think there should be some easy ones then tiered to harder. I do not like the current model of a raid in which you do it on LFR , then normal, then heroic. No wonder people get sick of content.

Either you want to raid or you do not. If you do, then you could start on easier raids then have the choice to move onto to the next level but not the same damn raid with a gimmick added. Introduce what raiding is and what it should be. Ok so you want to raid but cannot commit the time, if you can't do 2-3 night s a week then raiding is not for you. Do not drag down the rest of the population. I’ve always saw this as bullshit any way. I’ll see people who say they can’t commit a little bit of time to raiding but then are in LFR on various alts 5 nights a week.

Raiding should be an option but not anyone’s right to be able to be coddled like a child through content. Anything worth doing should be at least some sort of commitment, but that percentage of people who need instant gratification and “gimme” attitudes really hold back the original intent of what Blizz tried to capture with raiding.

There will be those that feel the journey and payoff should mean something and those that want it spoon fed to them. There will always be this imbalance but the RIGHT thing to do it obvious. You want to raid then fucking raid, do not turn it into some bullshit of dragging content down to the lowest skill set and/or work ethic. Do not need to cater to the top 10% either but come on...it’s fucking raiding.

[Osmeric]

They're called normals. They're decently tuned, yet easy enough for the average player to do them without much trouble.

The statistics on raid completion show that you are simply wrong. Normals have been tuned up to an extent that lesser guilds are finding they cannot do them.

[Stuffs]

The statistics on raid completion show that you are simply wrong. Normals have been tuned up to an extent that lesser guilds are finding they cannot do them.

If someone can't kill N Sha god forbid they play any other video game on the market.
WoW is already lampooned as the idiots game, the bar needs to go only so low.

If normals are too hard they can take the official title of hardcore LFR progression guild if they want.

[Pull My Finger]

This is what the MMO community has been reduced to - pure rubbish.

Interesting. Well I guess rubbish can't be that bad if it evolved out of something you seem to think yourself of. Really pleasant attitude.

On topic: I'm probably too old for that mindset where gameplay quality is so closely connected to difficulty.

[Osmeric]

If someone can't kill N Sha god forbid they play any other video game on the market.
WoW is already lampooned as the idiots game, the bar needs to go only so low.

If normals are too hard they can take the official title of hardcore LFR progression guild if they want.

So, faced with facts you cannot deny, your response is to whine about them? Thanks for admitting defeat in the argument.

Of course they can do LFR. Or, faced with a loss of the kind of organized raiding they liked, they can quit. Blizzard doesn't like it when people quit, even if you would approve of it.

There is a difficulty hole in the raid content Blizzard has delivered. This is a design defect, and all your huffing and puffing doesn't change that fact.

[judgementofantonidas]

This.

Wanna know what else was awesome? Killing M'uru before the huge nerf after over 250 attempts...only to watch Sunwell general chat flooded with mouth breathers two weeks later killing these same bosses that took us months to do.

That pattern has continued since then to hold the subscriptions of those that don't put forth effort in improving their gameplay and just want spoon-fed loot from easy encounters. This is what the MMO community has been reduced to - pure rubbish.

Again, read: http://flavortextlore.wordpress.com/...ecline-of-wow/

Back in 2000, Asheron's Call / EQ / UO were the big three. 75% of today's MMO players wouldn't have made it to 50 hours worth of /played before quitting.

You will get no arguement out of me. I am just happy that I am not the only one here getting bashed over defending challenging content as you progress. It was rough the first couple days of the thread. Some of the trolls supporting degrading all content to the point my cat could poke the keyboard and play successfully should apply to be moderators with the power they seem to think they weild here.

Hey wait........

http://www.judgementofantonidas.guil...417034/muc.jpg

[Crashdummy]

They've been nerfed habitually in the past, to varying degrees. The premise of "opening up content", or they felt people hit a plateau. But rather than nerfing a specific mechanic at that(lets say only mechanic X is holding up the players progression), they end up nerfing everything. ICC was the worst offender in that regard, along with DS.
I've been pretty happy with this tier as a whole though, and Im pretty psyched for Trollduar.

And I don't think LFD wouldn't need fine tuning if it was server only, I just have a different idealization about that whole premise to begin with.

They have been VER RARELY nerfed, as in ICC, Firelands and DS ONLY, and two of those were with buffs that could be deactivated, unless you mean particular nerfs on very specific mechanics of a particular fight.

Blizzard have already discarded the idea of applying the buff to T14 (although it will receive a 10% nerf across the boad once 5.2 is out, but then its old content anyway).

Im a little tired already of Troll raids and dungeons tbh, i would prefer a different theme already, i hope they dont tune Normals as tight as t14 ones (they did said t14 enrage timers were too tight for Normals).

LFD failed miserably when it was server only, LFD and LFR are fine being cross server, they did nothing to the community, the community was already full of crap before that, and actualyl the worst attitude a community member can have to other was rampant in TBC, which was atealing raiders from less progressed guilds because higher progressed one were too freaking LAZY to re-gear, re-train and re-attune new recruits.

[Toxigen]

Taste the processed meat things

I want to dive into a pool full of them and eat my way out.

[Stuffs]

So, faced with facts you cannot deny, your response is to whine about them? Thanks for admitting defeat in the argument.

Of course they can do LFR. Or, faced with a loss of the kind of organized raiding they liked, they can quit. Blizzard doesn't like it when people quit, even if you would approve of it.

There is a difficulty hole in the raid content Blizzard has delivered. This is a design defect, and all your huffing and puffing doesn't change that fact.

Facts I cant deny? Your claim to fame is clear rates are going down supposedly. And I retort the average player is getting worse.
Normals are fine, pick up some basic raid awareness. When you stop challenging yourself, your ability gets worse. And if we keep making shit easier to compensate for this rather than addressing the issue, at a certain point it's a glorified IRC with flashy buttons.

They have been VER RARELY nerfed, as in ICC, Firelands and DS ONLY, and two of those were with buffs that could be deactivated, unless you mean particular nerfs on very specific mechanics of a particular fight.

Uh, Ulduar was nerfed a few times off the top of my head, and psure ToC got that treatment too. I think OS was but that one I'm not sure.

Blizzard have already discarded the idea of applying the buff to T14 (although it will receive a 10% nerf across the boad once 5.2 is out, but then its old content anyway).

I already know about it, and I am perfectly fine with it for the same reason you said.

Im a little tired already of Troll raids and dungeons tbh, i would prefer a different theme already

Fel Troll raid?

I want to dive into a pool full of them and eat my way out.

How. Look at the ingredients list.

[Toxigen]

Facts I cant deny? Your claim to fame is clear rates are going down. And I retort the average player is getting worse.
Normals are fine, pick up some basic raid awareness. When you stop challenging yourself, your ability gets worse. And if we keep making shit easier to compensate for this rather than addressing the issue, at a certain point it's a glorified IRC with flashy buttons.

Well said, my dear cheese-filled processed meat provider.