[Mage] 5.2 PTR Discussion (based on Feb 19 notes)

[Maki]

Call me a selfish bitch (and I won't infract you this one time), but I'd rather be benched than be forced to play something I don't want to play which in my case is Fire.

This is exactly how I feel about Arcane.

[lillbrorsan]

This is exactly how I feel about Arcane.

Have to agree with this D:

[jcdommo]

The main problem to me is 2 things: 1. Why would you ever want someone in your guild to get nerfed for any reason and 2. Why would you want another of your class specs to get nerfed if it's op? If it's op, play it.

Forgive me if it sounds rude, but I don't understand why some of you guys are absolutely stuck on one spec. The best part of playing a pure class is being flexible enough to play whatever is called for during an encounter, or whatever happens to be the most op.

[jtmzac]

The main problem to me is 2 things: 1. Why would you ever want someone in your guild to get nerfed for any reason and 2. Why would you want another of your class specs to get nerfed if it's op? If it's op, play it.

Forgive me if it sounds rude, but I don't understand why some of you guys are absolutely stuck on one spec. The best part of playing a pure class is being flexible enough to play whatever is called for during an encounter, or whatever happens to be the most op.

That might be what you find fun but a lot of people just hate playing certain specs. Generally if people don't find it fun then people won't play it.

I hate fire and can't stand rop arcane so I play frost. Its just one of those things that is very personal and varies a lot. I don't play a mage because its a pure, I play it because its what I find fun.

If you want flexibility thats what hybrids are for.

[Deleted]

This is perpetuating the problem, please clarify with this:

Currently frost is not that competitive with fire and arcane on heroic modes.

Currently frost is competitive with other classes on heroic modes.

I wasn't talking about comparing mages specs to other classes' specs. I'm comparing the 3 mage specs on live in that post. So I don't see your point here.!?

[Shangalar]

The main problem to me is 2 things: 1. Why would you ever want someone in your guild to get nerfed for any reason and 2. Why would you want another of your class specs to get nerfed if it's op? If it's op, play it.

Forgive me if it sounds rude, but I don't understand why some of you guys are absolutely stuck on one spec. The best part of playing a pure class is being flexible enough to play whatever is called for during an encounter, or whatever happens to be the most op.

I explained how I feel about this on page 20, my post regarding why we want something nerfed: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20385377

[Rira]

I just looked at raidbots using the same settings you mentioned. You do need to take into account there were 20177 samples for affliction (and 20007 for arcane btw which was second with 83k) and only 2932 samples for frost, nearly 1/7th the sample size.

Not saying the median isn't a good measure (cause it is compared to some others), but sample size and selection bias don't allow any of these measures to be as cut and dry as the numbers suggest.

Anyhow, come 5.2 fire and arcane wont be leagues ahead/behind of frost ( at least so far) - play what you enjoy.

Assuming raidbots using a random sampling method, there should be no inherent bias. I am assuming that using a sample of 2,932 frost mage parses, the median dps is a good estimate of the median of frost mage parses on wow. I am also assuming that using a sample of 20,177 affliction parses, the median dps is a good estimate of the median of affliction warlock parses on wow.
If you want, I can compare the means and do 95% confidence intervals for each (which will factor in the sample size).
Affliction: 95% CI - 90607.61 - 91512.99
Frost Mage: 95% CI - 76178.22 - 78488.22

But the conclusion is still the same as my last post.

[Deleted]

... (and I won't infract you this one time)...

Dunno what you have seen here for infracting me. I would repeat the exact thing again, again and again, because no one is dictating me what I have to think!
The benched thing wasn´t against a certain spec, because the whole mage class is not the right tool for throne of thunder atm

[Shangalar]

Dunno what you have seen here for infracting me. I would repeat the exact thing again, again and again, because no one is dictating me what I have to think!
The benched thing wasn´t against a certain spec, because the whole mage class is not the right tool for throne of thunder atm

Dafuq? The (and I won't infract you this one time) was referring to what I wrote "you can call me a selfish bitch" lol. Had nothing to do with you or any of your posts

[Deleted]

Haha! My fault sorry :P

[Bullarkie]

Frost has been THE PvP spec for a long time now. I vote we leave it that way.

[Firebert]

I agree, competitive means close to top. If your 20% behind the top your not being competitive in my eyes.

Arbitrary line.

All DPS specs are competetive for PvE, as that's what Blizz balance around. If a spec isn't competetive for PvE it'll be buffed (unless you don't think Blizzard can balance their own game with millions of monies per month).

[Deleted]

Arbitrary line.

All DPS specs are competetive for PvE, as that's what Blizz balance around. If a spec isn't competetive for PvE it'll be buffed (unless you don't think Blizzard can balance their own game with millions of monies per month).

Seeing as they only undid the most recent CM nerf and nerfed Pyroblast instead, as suggested by multiple posters, and citing similar reasons, and did not think of this themselves beforehand.. yeah, I think they might have serious issues in seeing problems with classes, balance etc.

[mrgreenthump]

No pyro direct damage doesn't result in 50% of your total damage at later ilvl. The CM nerf was about 4% worse than the pyro nerf at 522.

Ye it wont, cause its around 55-60% at 522. You dont seem to get that most of our combustion damage comes from pyroblasts direct damage, over half of our ignite is pyroblasts direct damage.. and pyroblast even does 30-40% of our total damage depending on gear, so nerfing 10 % from the direct damage of pyro..

Results around 8.5% less pyro damage, 5-6% less ignite damage, and depending on how you build your combustions, its 8-9% nerf to combustion.. So how that aint more than 5% nerf to your overall damage is beyond me.

Now the CM nerf at 522 ilevel would mean around 3.5% less crit on fireball and around 4% nerf on pyroblast, that will not in any shape of form be even near to 5% nerf to overall dps

[zomgDPS]

Seeing as they only undid the most recent CM nerf and nerfed Pyroblast instead, as suggested by multiple posters, and citing similar reasons, and did not think of this themselves beforehand.

I'm not so sure of this. I'm not defending Blizzard per se, I just see a more obvious answer to why they waited to nerf Pyro.

It came down to an idea I've thrown around for a bit, that being, they wanted Pyro to hit hard. That is the charm of the spell. Imagine if pyros just became super weak. As a destrolock, let me tell you, it sucks HARD when your supposed 'big nuke' lands on the target but ends up hitting like a girl.


I think Blizz was debating the issue internally, deciding which of the lesser evils they wanted. A nerf to the 'frequency' of the big nuke but have it still hit like a truck when it lands? Or more frequent nukes, just not as big.

Seems like previously, they were holding strong to the former philosophy (which explained the previous CM nerf too). Now, they have changed their minds to the latter.




That being said, there seems to be a lot of commotion in this thread now and I can sense many knickers being all twisted up (my 'knicker sense' is quite good).

Can somebody articulate clearly what exactly the issue that everyone is so passionately discussing? It seems like people have just started talking about their own issues and are just talking past each other at this point.

From what I can glean, people want to discuss Frost vs other mage specs? Is this accurate?


I think Frost (arguably for sure) has the 'best' playstyle of the 3 mage specs now as well as having the most complete 'kit'. Just to qualify that; by 'best' I don't necessarily mean 'most fun for all', I mean that it has the most thought out, 'tight', and 'complete' playstyle. Spells 'work' well together and their exists a well thought out and interesting mechanic driving everything.
It may not be optimal on some fight X or due to some mechanic Y, but overall, Frost is the most 'solid' Mage spec out there right now.


In PvP, it completely dominates (both in rBGs as well as Arenas). And I really do mean completely.
In challenge modes, it completely dominates.
In Raids, the 5.2s buffs coupled with favorable mechanics will definitely allow Frost to see the light of day. I'm pretty sure about it.



Now, there will always be idiots who will not bother to read up on the changes and realize that Frost in 5.2 will not only 'work' but may actually be optimal for some fights. But let those idiots be (unless ofc that idiot is your GM/raid lead, in which case, either educate them or find a new guild).

[Deleted]

Now, there will always be idiots who will not bother to read up on the changes and realize that Frost in 5.2 will not only 'work' but may actually be optimal for some fights. But let those idiots be (unless ofc that idiot is your GM/raid lead, in which case, either educate them or find a new guild).

Frost and the other two are not optimal from a serious hardcore progression point of view. We´re going to stack warlocks, shamans, boomkins, shadows... Frost will be "okay" for some fights with low T15 Gear. I don´t see a safe spot for me and my mage during T15 heroic progression, if things stay like this.

[Akraen]

Just you wait Pete, I'm going to fight to the death until I see frost mages in the world first races.

[Preamo]

Just getting caught up....glad to be getting our CM back to 1.3.

Here is a conspiracy theory. Blizz had intended to drop our pyro nuke all along, but they were trying to figure out a way so that mages would not complain too much about it.

….Blizz puts out a totally unreasonable nerf with the CM reduction so that mages worldwide go ballistic. Blizz comes out the next day reversing the CM nerf saying we agree, way over the top, but in the same thread nerf’s the pyro nuke. Mages say phew, I can live with a 10% reduction to our pyro nuke to get our CM back to 1.3. Mages stop complaining…well not sure if we will ever stop complaining, but the amount complaining drops off.

Hmmmm…..maybe blizz is gaming us…lol

[zomgDPS]

Frost and the other two are not optimal from a serious hardcore progression point of view. We´re going to stack warlocks, shamans, boomkins, shadows...

If that is what you believe, sure... go right ahead. Stack dat raid. No one here is going to tell you how to run your raid.


Our progression, hardmode, server first raids will, however, have a healthy mage representation. If Shinz (our frostmage) is not present, I am quite sure it will be for reasons independent of her spec of choice.
Also, there will be a mage in the world first H Thunder King and H Alagalon2.0 kills. Mark this post and quote me on it if you wish.



There are differences between the specs, sure, both performance wise and in what they bring to the raid.
However, our guild are of the belief that these differences still lie within the realm of player skill, i.e. skill is still the determinant for performance. The differences between mages, warlocks, booms and spriests are no where near big enough (even just theoretically) for a skilled player of class X to not still be able to compete with a skilled player of class Y.

In short, we don't believe the differences between the classes are large enough to require stacking behavior. You may believe otherwise, that is your prerogative.



As a very separate word of advice (given free of charge ). If you feel your position in your raid is in doubt purely because of the class/spec you picked, I highly suggest you start looking for another guild even if you are picked.

Take it from someone who has been around WoW for a looong time now, and has seen many different types of guild. I can tell you this, not even some of the most bog-standard progression guilds that I know personally are considering benching their mages. These are not just some random progression guilds either, these guys are server first guys too.

On a completely separate point, if your guild is still one of those guilds whose solution to progression is to "stack classes", that in itself gives me a moment of pause.

"Class stacking" hasn't been a REAL issue since Sunwell. Sure, there were some random fights or some random isolated issue where someone found some exploit of some fight (which was later quickly patched) in order to get around a fight and used 'class stacking', but in the general sense of the concept, "Class stacking" is gone from WoW.
If I met someone who still considered it an 'option', personally, I would think they are just using it as an excuse for their failures. Which, on the whole, I don't really care about, I just think it is a dangerous road since the real issues with the failure are never known due to this rather convenient 'scapegoat'.

But all this is just completely my own opinion.

[Deleted]

Snip..

I do agree on most of your points zomg. But first of all, a server first guild can be nr 2000 in the world so i dont see the point of using that as an argument.

And about class stacking, As of recent times; Raggy, Spine, and Garalon to name a few and yes i know spine is prolly the only REAL issue(as you put it). I dont get your point on this at all, Class stacking has been real for a long time and still is. Though i also agree that if you are not pushing world top 10(50) it is not that important, but even at my guilds level im sure our progress and many low % wipes on certain bosses could have been avoided if we had the opportunity to throw out some of the weak classes and get in some stronger ones, f.ex. some times we have 3 shadow priests and 2 ele shamans, while only having 1 mage(me) and 1-0 warlocks.. on Zorlok we had more than 15 wipes sub 5% 2 of them on 2% at 14 and 17 mill hp. While the skill of some of the Spriests an ele shams can be debated, it can not be for all of them.
My point here is even if class stacking is not a super big issue, it can help out tremendously to down a boss faster. If your guild is all about progression, of cause you as a guild, are going to bench a class that performs weaker than another on certain fights, if that is what it takes to get world/region/server firsts.. If you have no real competition for server first or are not in that "game" you wont, simple as that.

Let me finish of by saying im obviously in a guild that dont care that much about it and take what ever class our raiders are playing, witch suits me fine i had my share of hardcore raiding in vanilla and kara-scc and im glad that is behind me.
I also do not think mages will be in such a bad shape that we will get rigorously benched.

my 2 cents =)