Ninjaing in LFG

[Temp name]

The ONLY reason I "ninja loot" is when the group I'm in is being dicks (Swearing at others for no reason, purposely wiping (jk, you can't wipe)). And even then, if someone who was being nice in the group actually needs the item I'll hand it over to them after the run is over. But to need just because you can? No, that's bad.

[woopytywoop]

I never ninja loot and also never get annoyed by ninja looters in LFG

Let the baby have his bottle is my motto.

[Deleted]

I always need on lockboxes. Nothing else, if I don't need it.

[Freedom]

If you want back in, say you're sorry, and show them you going around and giving random people most of the stuff you "acquired" in this way, and certainly doing both would get you back in if they are reasonable. If people see or notice someone with their guild tag giving free stuff away that would add to their rep wouldn't it, especially if said giving was in oops, I wasn't very nice?

Contrary to this post, I'm actually a very nice and humble person in game, but when people on forums start crying about "loot ninjas" in 5 man dungeons and how they are terrible people with no soul, then it makes me laugh and rage at the same time.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic and doesn't actually do what he said he does in his post. Stop taking the internet so literally.

[Deleted]

Really wish people would learn what the term "Ninja Looting" is about, See it thrown around so much these days and very, VERY rarely used in the proper context.

Ninja Looting is where the loot rules are set for masterloot, the loot rules are announced (by the master looter, not the raid leader if different person) and then the masterlooter proceeds to take any / all loot for themselves. Or, Seconds before the boss dies, the loot rules are set to Masterloot and the masterlooter takes all the loot for themselves.

it is NOT
Someone rolling need on an item when the need button is lit for any reason - This is an allowed option by blizzard, if the button is lit you are allowed by the games rules to need on it
I would say that that people who do this are being anti-social, they are not ninja's though.

[Deleted]

Really wish people would learn what the term "Ninja Looting" is about, See it thrown around so much these days and very, VERY rarely used in the proper context.

Ninja Looting is where the loot rules are set for masterloot, the loot rules are announced (by the master looter, not the raid leader if different person) and then the masterlooter proceeds to take any / all loot for themselves. Or, Seconds before the boss dies, the loot rules are set to Masterloot and the masterlooter takes all the loot for themselves.

it is NOT
Someone rolling need on an item when the need button is lit for any reason - This is an allowed option by blizzard, if the button is lit you are allowed by the games rules to need on it
I would say that that people who do this are being anti-social, they are not ninja's though.

True but people use this term, because the OP used it. Had he used another term, I think the rest of the posters would have used that in stead. So blame the OP for making a misleading thread title and using a term that isn't correct in context to what actually happened.

[Sivick]

If you are a ninja looter you are a dick and a horrible person, who only thinks of themselves. I wouldn't have anyone who ninjas in my guild either, they are a terrible drain on your reputation. Blizzard has put so much effort into killing ninja looting and you haven't gotten the message yet?

[Tzalix]

Gear doesnt scale when you level. Nor do the stats. Can you pass that shit your smoking over here?

...

The amount of points needed for the same bonus increases with each level. It's a substantial increase, especially at the later levels, due to non-linear stat scaling. Your theoretical max DPS will usually decrease by 5k-10k when you go from lvl89 to 90.

What are you smoking?

On topic: Here's a very simple explanation for how the Need before Greed system works, since there seems to be a lot of people who don't know...

Need: I need that item. I don't need the gold I could get from selling it, I don't need the mats I could get from disenchanting it, I need the item itself.
Greed: I don't need the item itself, but I do need the gold/mats I could get out of it.
Pass: I have no need for the item.

[AVPaul]

Really wish people would learn what the term "Ninja Looting" is about, See it thrown around so much these days and very, VERY rarely used in the proper context.

Ninja Looting is where the loot rules are set for masterloot, the loot rules are announced (by the master looter, not the raid leader if different person) and then the masterlooter proceeds to take any / all loot for themselves. Or, Seconds before the boss dies, the loot rules are set to Masterloot and the masterlooter takes all the loot for themselves.

it is NOT
Someone rolling need on an item when the need button is lit for any reason - This is an allowed option by blizzard, if the button is lit you are allowed by the games rules to need on it
I would say that that people who do this are being anti-social, they are not ninja's though.

Wrong. If you "need" on inappropriate item in LFD you are ninja-looter too. The fact that there some restrictions are applyed in high-end LFD in order to decrease concurence doesn't really mean that all that is not forbidden are allowed. Blizzard just declined all responsibility by telling that if they can't be 100% sure, that you won't need some items, then they can't prevent you from needing on that items - they just left this choice for you. That means, that if there is 1% chance, that you will want to gear up str ring as update while being a hunter, Blizzard just can't prevent you from doing it and they doesn't bother, that in all other 99% of cases this ability to need on inappropriate item will be just abused by ninja-looters. They just can't set 100% fair rules - server is stupid machine and it just can't determine, what is update for you and what item you needing just because you want to abuse flawed loot system. So this doesn't mean that you won't be a ninja-looter, if you'll need on item just to DE it, just because you can and need button is active. Ninja-looters are just using this as justification. So it's some kind of social thing. Developers can't set 100% correct rules and left the final decision for player. And if other 4 players in your LFD party decided, that you are ninja-looter, after you have "stolen" item, you already have for example - then you are really ninja-looter. And this problem will be solved only when 100% choice and social free loot system will be implemented - i.e. individual loot.

[mikoslav]

I have ninjaed often in 5man end boss because at that point group cannot kick me (or even if they could it would be pointless because dungeon is already over). I do that only for loot, very rarely to steal from my group members (exception when they have been dick). I don't like position where I have choice between 10g/ethereal shard or my fellow wow player feelings. However I often take money because I feel bad throwing money away.

What is your stance on ninja looting in LFG and thought process behind that stance? And what do you think about ninja looters?

I dont have the amount of free time to play wow that I would like to have.
Yesterday I had some more time, I leveled up my hunter alt, dinged 90, and went to dungs to get I lvl 460 to be able do do LFR asap.
After 2 hours I queued for the "love chemical" dung to get I lvl 480 agility neck. It dropped. Some paladin rolled for it.
It was the easiest I lvl improvement, that would allow me to queue for MSV.
But this pally took it, I am not sure why, maybe he didnt care and just needed.

It took next 2 hours out of my life, queing for the same shitty dung, to actually get this drop again, and win it, and queue for MSV LFR 2 hours later.
It was already 23.30, because of the late hour, LFR queue took 45 minutes due to lack of healers.
00:10 I went into LFR, due to not the best group I finished at 01.00. and went to bed at 01:15.

If no freaking ninja pally, I would be in bed at 23.00 at the most.
I would not wake up tired. And I would not hit this little girl with my car at 07:15 am.

Got that?

[Talen]

What is your stance on ninja looting in LFG and thought process behind that stance? And what do you think about ninja looters?

I've seen two arguments put forward.

1: All players put in time and effort and the system is designed around players needing, even if for an off spec. Doing so also has several advantages for the game.

2: Many players feel you should roll only for the role you play. This ensures tanks and healers get a guaranteed win if their item drops, and requires certain players to give up their reward for killing a boss and this in turn negates several advantages from a gameplay pov.

This is the type of argument where noone is right. Both povs, IMO, are valid. If you expect players to roll only for their current role, then you are saying they don't deserve the reward the game is allocating them; if you don't then you are seen as a poor player who is selfish for not letting tanks and healers have their gear - instead of being selfish for expecting others to give their loot.

I've given up caring to be honest. It's an old argument, its a boring argument and it doesn't matter which side you are on because you are being a selfish jerk from someones point of view.

However - NEEDing because you want a shard is indeed pitiful. Its not even as if gold or enchanting mats are that difficult to come by.

EJL

[Keylow]

To the people that roll Need to win an item from a guy doing subpar DPS, I get that, but I still think it's a dick move. Too hard to just be nice and let them have the item?

But there is a difference between doing subpar DPS for the dungeon as opposed to doing subpar compared to a Heroic raid geared player.If you are rolling need because someone is "only" doing 40k...

[AVPaul]

I've seen two arguments put forward.

1: All players put in time and effort and the system is designed around players needing, even if for an off spec. Doing so also has several advantages for the game.

2: Many players feel you should roll only for the role you play. This ensures tanks and healers get a guaranteed win if their item drops, and requires certain players to give up their reward for killing a boss and this in turn negates several advantages from a gameplay pov.

This is the type of argument where noone is right. Both povs, IMO, are valid. If you expect players to roll only for their current role, then you are saying they don't deserve the reward the game is allocating them; if you don't then you are seen as a poor player who is selfish for not letting tanks and healers have their gear - instead of being selfish for expecting others to give their loot.

I've given up caring to be honest. It's an old argument, its a boring argument and it doesn't matter which side you are on because you are being a selfish jerk from someones point of view.

However - NEEDing because you want a shard is indeed pitiful. Its not even as if gold or enchanting mats are that difficult to come by.

EJL

Wrong too. Just because if you already have this item, then you should not need on it - it will be one of ninjaing kinds too. Tanks and healers won't need on item in 100% of cases. They just have a priority to get this item. That's about what we are talking about. Needing on offspec - is not ninjaing itself. Violating gearing priority - that what is called ninjaing. If you're needing on items to DE them, then you are ninjaing, just because there is proper button for doing it - DE button. You just trying to get unreasonable advantage by raising your chance to get item and lowering other player's chances. DE button gives equal chances to all players in party and need button has higher priority. That what is called ninjaing. And that what is calling loot system abusing.

[brianvlink684]

Very helpful....

[Talen]

They just have a priority to get this item.

Not really. That's the point.

Some players think they do. Some players don't.
Tanks and healers are selfish to expect other players to give up their reward. Other players are selfish not to reward the tanks and healers for playing.

For all your talk about "gear priority"...that's a concept that really doesn't exist in LFG. Its something some players simply expect. Some players....not all. Players have many different expectations for what is "ninjaing".

One common point of view is that you only roll for the role you are playing.
Another is that you roll for any gear you need, even if it for an off-spec.
Another is that if you can roll NEED, you do roll NEED.

I'd agree that rolling NEED on an item for Disenchanting is in poor taste. As you point out, there is even a button for it. I'd even say that for rolling NEED for gear you already have or for which is a downgrade you.

But you are simply arguing that your convention on this issue and your understanding on how looting works should be universal even for those players who don't agree with it it and have a different viewpoint on the system. Should they not have the equal chance at looting the boss they also helped kill? Should they not get a chance at the reward? Why should they be expected to give up their reward to benefit someone else? Is it better to be selfish in expecting those players to give their chance? Or better to be selfish in having those players roll anyway?

Off-spec? For me, that's more of a grey area. Does the tank deserve a tank item simply because he is a tank? He can't defeat the dungeon by himself; he needs help. So what he is asking is for every other person in the group to give up their reward so he can be better. They put in time and effort so he can gear up. He gets a 100% uncontested roll on his gear. Desireable?

OTOH, if a DPS rolls for an off-spec item, he is getting an item that is (often but not always) of less value to him, something that will be of much less benefit. He may want to tank, he may intend to tank, he doesn't want to hold others back or cause them grief by being a sub-par tank because he lacks the gear but he still has the option of starting from scratch as a tank and getting his gear that way. Desireable?

And that's leaving aside all the arguments that occurs if an item crosses over? Remember all that argumentation because Souldrinker was seen as a tanking sword? But one that benefited several melee specs?

EJL

[AVPaul]

Not really. That's the point.

Some players think they do. Some players don't.
Tanks and healers are selfish to expect other players to give up their reward. Other players are selfish not to reward the tanks and healers for playing.

For all your talk about "gear priority"...that's a concept that really doesn't exist in LFG. Its something some players simply expect. Some players....not all. Players have many different expectations for what is "ninjaing".

One common point of view is that you only roll for the role you are playing.
Another is that you roll for any gear you need, even if it for an off-spec.
Another is that if you can roll NEED, you do roll NEED.

I'd agree that rolling NEED on an item for Disenchanting is in poor taste. As you point out, there is even a button for it. I'd even say that for rolling NEED for gear you already have or for which is a downgrade you.

But you are simply arguing that your convention on this issue and your understanding on how looting works should be universal even for those players who don't agree with it it and have a different viewpoint on the system. Should they not have the equal chance at looting the boss they also helped kill? Should they not get a chance at the reward? Why should they be expected to give up their reward to benefit someone else? Is it better to be selfish in expecting those players to give their chance? Or better to be selfish in having those players roll anyway?

Off-spec? For me, that's more of a grey area. Does the tank deserve a tank item simply because he is a tank? He can't defeat the dungeon by himself; he needs help. So what he is asking is for every other person in the group to give up their reward so he can be better. They put in time and effort so he can gear up. He gets a 100% uncontested roll on his gear. Desireable?

OTOH, if a DPS rolls for an off-spec item, he is getting an item that is (often but not always) of less value to him, something that will be of much less benefit. He may want to tank, he may intend to tank, he doesn't want to hold others back or cause them grief by being a sub-par tank because he lacks the gear but he still has the option of starting from scratch as a tank and getting his gear that way. Desireable?

And that's leaving aside all the arguments that occurs if an item crosses over? Remember all that argumentation because Souldrinker was seen as a tanking sword? But one that benefited several melee specs?

EJL

You are talking about this like some reward for killing boss should be guarantied for you. At least chance to get reward. But, you know, old "need before greed" system works another way. Sometimes just nothing may drop for you. I always asking this question. Asking people like you, who defend ninjaing. If you think, that every player in party should have the same chances to get reward, boss have dropped, then what's the point for spec restrictions? Let's remove spec restrictions. But don't you think, that if there will be no restrictions, every player will feel like he should always press need button? For example this happened with crafting spheres and some fest rewards: some players thought, that all players should press greed on this items, but some players thought, that they should press need. And at the end devs decided to just remove need button to avoid confusion. And the next question. What's the point of having any buttons then? If there is only one button and every player feels like he have to push it, then may be we should remove any buttons at all? So, if restrictions are exsis, then there is a reason for it. And this reason is to give priority to some players, who need this this items "more". So "devs want loot to be free for all" argument is just not working here. System is not working perfectly just because it will be too complex then. I.e. priority should be, but system just can't determine it with 100% accuracy. That's where some room for ninjaing is left. But this doesn't mean, system should not be fixed. As we know, Blizzard want to make loot system more fair too, but they don't want to even try to make "need before greed" system 100% fair. They are trying another approach - individual loot.

[Talen]

You are talking about this like some reward for killing boss

Yes. I help kill the boss. I get a reward. I get loots. VP. Gear. Gold. Whatever. It's a reward for finishing the dungeon.

should be guaranteed for you

No. But in asking others to give up their roll for OS, you are asking that the tank or healer gets guaranteed loot should it drop.

If you think, that every player in party should have the same chances to get reward, boss have dropped, then what's the point for spec restrictions? Let's remove spec restrictions.

AIR, there aren't any. In LFD anyway.

And at the end devs decided to just remove need button to avoid confusion.

Yep. Thing is...for those types of reward, you SHOULD always select Need anyway. Even now...lets say a mount drops? Or a vanity trinket. Do you Greed i? No...you Need. Or should unless you don't want it. Why? Because everyone NEEDing is the same as everyone GREEDing, expet it can't be overridden.

And the next question. What's the point of having any buttons then?

Kinda misses the point. Although the point of the buttons is obvious. Do you NEED the item? Do you want it for GREED? Or enchant mats? The question is...if you feel you NEED an item for an Off-spec, are you entitiled to roll on a reward you actually earned by helping the entire group kill the boss?


You personally actually do need the item. You do intend to use it. But its for an off spec. You did aid the group, you did put time and effort into the win. Depending on the situation, you may even have put MORE effort into the victory than the player you would be rolling against.


Why, exactly, should you be expected to give up that reward of a chance at getting the item to help someone else gear up?

And this reason is to give priority to some players, who need this this items "more".

Your MS is Tank. But you are in DPS gear because its quicker, easier, safer to level that way. You enter a dungeon as DPS because you don't have the gear to tank it yet. A tank item drops. You need that item for your Main Spec. The Tank in your group also needs it.


Both Need the item. Both can use. Both will use it. Both will fill the tank role.


Why does one have a better claim?

So "devs want loot to be free for all" argument is just not working here. System is not working perfectly just because it will be too complex then.

Would have been a better argument before the LFR loot system came in. Blizzard could have split the dungeon loot system just like they did LFR. They didn't. They still might, but they didn't. There are several reasons why the existing system is actually better for the game - for one, it means tanks and healers don't outlevel or outgear DPS too soon and keeps them playing the dungeons.


However, the simple truth is that your idea that the loot system is too complex to handle every situation is wrong, because Blizzard already has in place a system which bypasses it.

Either way, players have differing viewpoints on this. And differing viewpoints ensures other players are seen as selfish.

It is selfish for players to expect others to give up their chance at loot after requiring their help to kill the boss.
It is selfish for players to NEED in items which will benefit other players much more.

There is no Right, no Wrong on this. There is simply a difference of opinion. And you are saying your opinion on this issue is all that matters.

If you want to use the MS>OS system, there is a very simple way to ensure it. Ask.

EJL

[Lockrocker75]

I have ninjaed often in 5man end boss because at that point group cannot kick me (or even if they could it would be pointless because dungeon is already over). I do that only for loot, very rarely to steal from my group members (exception when they have been dick). I don't like position where I have choice between 10g/ethereal shard or my fellow wow player feelings. However I often take money because I feel bad throwing money away.

Recently though I had discussion about this with other player. He mentioned that if he has worked towards something, he doesn't like rewards to be stolen. That made me really think more about the position of one whose loot I ninja, and feel bad. Also ninjaing tarnishes your reputation.

(My personal story)
I was in my realm+faction best raiding guild as social for 16 months, I chatted much, really liked people there and I felt like they liked me too. However on one night we happened to talk about incoming 5.2 patch. I told that I have been preparing our small realm+faction for it by funneling enchanting mats here, added by JK I would do it anyways. Apparently officers however didn't like it, as next day when I log in I find myself guildless. I talked about one of them, (he's the "other player" mentioned above) apparently that stuff gives bad reputation to guild. (though while being in small realm+faction 99% of people who I meet in LFG are from somewhere else, so what's the big deal? IMO) and he didn't see anything good in having people with so loose morale around him.

What is your stance on ninja looting in LFG and thought process behind that stance? And what do you think about ninja looters?

Plain and simple, it's people like you that have made the new loot system possible (in LFR at least). if you DON'T need an item, don't need on it. Need on it if it's your class/spec. If you WANT (not NEED) it for your off spec, then ask to roll need. As i seen someone else mention above, others may be in there for that certain item you are ninja'ing. I have had so many tanks/healers (plate) need on DPS items when I was gearing up my warrior, and DK. It is a pain in the rear when that item drops only for an idiot to ninja it from you because the "can" play that spec if they want to, but are using a different spec to gear up their OS. Play your spec, only roll need on items you can use (and if it's an upgrade). Quit being an a-hole. It's people like you that should quit this game. And yes, doing what you do gives a bad reputation to a guild. I know my guild forbids this and would kick anyone that done it. It's called grow up and be respectful, you're not the only one that matters in this game.

[Sivick]

Your MS is Tank. But you are in DPS gear because its quicker, easier, safer to level that way. You enter a dungeon as DPS because you don't have the gear to tank it yet. A tank item drops. You need that item for your Main Spec. The Tank in your group also needs it.


Both Need the item. Both can use. Both will use it. Both will fill the tank role.


Why does one have a better claim?

You said it yourself, that collecting tank gear as you level up is harder, so if he leveled up grabbing tank gear and qued as a tank, a spec so badly needed they sometimes get bonus loot just for queing up as one, they should have first dibs on any upgrade because they put in the extra effort.

[Vargas]

Plain and simple, it's people like you that have made the new loot system possible (in LFR at least). if you DON'T need an item, don't need on it. Need on it if it's your class/spec. If you WANT (not NEED) it for your off spec, then ask to roll need. As i seen someone else mention above, others may be in there for that certain item you are ninja'ing. I have had so many tanks/healers (plate) need on DPS items when I was gearing up my warrior, and DK. It is a pain in the rear when that item drops only for an idiot to ninja it from you because the "can" play that spec if they want to, but are using a different spec to gear up their OS. Play your spec, only roll need on items you can use (and if it's an upgrade). Quit being an a-hole. It's people like you that should quit this game. And yes, doing what you do gives a bad reputation to a guild. I know my guild forbids this and would kick anyone that done it. It's called grow up and be respectful, you're not the only one that matters in this game.

Most of the WoW community needs this beaten savagely into their thick skulls; the think they're special and that the world (of warcraft) revolves around them and that everyone else are just NPC's there to assist them. Those kind of people need to fuck off and quit playing this game until their brain evolves to the point where they realize that they're not the center of the universe and never will be. As for the OP, he's lucky he has LFD and RF to even play with other people now. In vanilla/TBC that kind of bullshit would have gotten you blacklisted by your community.