Turkey restarts negociations over EU membership

[Waters]

Because of what happened back then is not clear. I mean, was it a direct order to slaughter all the innocent people when they were re-locating or was it an act of war? Was there a provocation? There are two sides of the story and it is not clear.

It's pretty damn clear to anyone that isn't Turkish.

[Deleted]

Because of what happened back then is not clear. I mean, was it a direct order to slaughter all the innocent people when they were re-locating or was it an act of war? Was there a provocation? There are two sides of the story and it is not clear.

This is exactly what I meant. It's like saying that it isn't clear what happened during the holocaust.

[rnbwtrout]

What common identity is there between say for example a Scottish fisherman and Italian farmer? There is no common language, nor shared history or bonds, these 2 have nothing in common.

at one time, all european countries recognized the pope and papal powers. that's a very big cultural bridge. all the christian sects in europe sprang from the catholic faith. all the different holy orders of europe had holdings all over the eu.

all the eu developed through the dark ages in the same manner kings/nobles/knights/serfs. that's another shared culture.

many of the royal families married into other eu royal families. this was a major cause of the wars in europe because almost every family had claims outside of their country.

latin was the language of the educated and elite thoughout all the eu.

i could go on...but saying the eu has nothing in common is wrong.

[Zoranon]

Well, personally, a sense of belonging with other Europeans and generally a sense of patriotism (lack of a better word, I'm afraid) towards Europe comparable with the sense of patriotism that I feel towards my country, Croatia. I'd even say I'm more patriotic towards Europe than Croatia (or EU, since it's currently the primary mechanism of European integration and unification that's going on, although that doesn't mean I don't recognize its faults, I'm just more reluctant about rejecting it than those that don't have a European identity).

I know this isn't really an informative or useful answer, but at least you can read about it more here. It's hard for me to put into words exactly what I mean when I say I have a European identity.



I did say EU citizen instead of European citizen for a reason, and yes, I mean by EU citizen what you just described.

Fair enough, but why should I fell to have more in common with say an aforementioned Italian farmer than say a nurse living in New York? I differ between cultural identity, which I think I share with Europeans as well as north Americans and Australians and a national identity which is Czech. Because I actually find to have more in common with students from Canada or USA than Italy or Spain and as such find this "Eu pride/ rather puzzling.

[Makatafinger]

1. I guess the pogroms against Greeks in Istanbul in the 1950s is a lie too, right? Despite having family friends that went through it and were kicked out of the city and told to be lucky they were allowed to live? And I guess not allowing the Orthodox seminary at Halki to reopen is a lie too, right?
2. Germany still recognizes and paid reparations for what the Nazi regime did, even though it's not the same government as the current one.
3. Northern Cyprus is occupied by Turkish troops. Greeks were killed and driven out. What about right of reparation and return? If a Turk supports right of return for Palestinians but not Greek Cypriots, they are a hypocrite.
4. So the trials and events linked to them are all a lie? That sounds pretty conspiratorial. I guess you think the Susurluk scandal was all a lie too, right? let me guess, anything negative about Kemalism is a lie, right?

1. My grandmother is Greek and she told me that what happened back then was pure provocation. You know how easy people get manipulated over religion. Not every Greek were pushed out of the city. Get your facts right.
2. It is not the same goverment, yes. But this is a different COUNTRY. We can not be hold responsible what Ottoman Empire did. We dont go around and say "we ruled over greece for 500 years suck on that losers". We didnt do that. Ottoman Empire did. So the hatred is kinda wrong placed here dude.
3. Southern Cyprus is occupied by Greek soldiers. Turks were killed and driven out. Nobody is innocent on this matter.
4. Corrupted justice. You know how many innocent journalists are in prison because of this conspiracy ? Do you have any idea how the media hides the truth because they are scared of Erdoğan? I doubt it.

[Zoranon]

at one time, all european countries recognized the pope and papal powers. that's a very big cultural bridge. all the christian sects in europe sprang from the catholic faith. all the different holy orders of europe had holdings all over the eu.

all the eu developed through the dark ages in the same manner kings/nobles/knights/serfs. that's another shared culture.

many of the royal families married into other eu royal families. this was a major cause of the wars in europe because almost every family had claims outside of their country.

latin was the language of the educated and elite thoughout all the eu.

i could go on...but saying the eu has nothing in common is wrong.

This is would be true if you said western Europe, however Europe also encompasses Russia and Eastern Balkan countries which never recognised the primacy of the bishop of Rome. As for feudalism, it also was very different and in fact the Russian muzhik was in very different position than an English free man or a member of the polish slazchta. In fact you would find, than some of the Eastern European countries would, even in middle ages be more comparable to some Oriental despocies, than to the enterprising and relatively free England.

Actually if you widen your gaze, you will see that almost all civilisations had feudalism as their "regime" at some point of their development.

[Makatafinger]

It's pretty damn clear to anyone that isn't Turkish.

If we are to take that blame, i will accept and pay my respect to those who have fallen. BUT, I'm saying this again, I wont take blame for something that Ottoman Empire did.

[Djuntas]

Not sure, they aint excatcly terrible either, but comparing them to other european countries, it makes them look bad.

We shoulden't haft to invite every country, if they cant provide something usefull.

[Deleted]

If we are to take that blame, i will accept and pay my respect to those who have fallen. BUT, I'm saying this again, I wont take blame for something that Ottoman Empire did.

Again: It's not about blaming anyone for what happened back then.
It's about the fact that even Erdogan refuses to admit that it did happen, let alone countless "regular" people.

Also, how can you provoke the killing of 300.000 to more than 1.000.000 people?

[Stelio Kontos]

1. My grandmother is Greek and she told me that what happened back then was pure provocation. You know how easy people get manipulated over religion. Not every Greek were pushed out of the city. Get your facts right.
2. It is not the same goverment, yes. But this is a different COUNTRY. We can not be hold responsible what Ottoman Empire did. We dont go around and say "we ruled over greece for 500 years suck on that losers". We didnt do that. Ottoman Empire did. So the hatred is kinda wrong placed here dude.
3. Southern Cyprus is occupied by Greek soldiers. Turks were killed and driven out. Nobody is innocent on this matter.
4. Corrupted justice. You know how many innocent journalists are in prison because of this conspiracy ? Do you have any idea how the media hides the truth because they are scared of Erdoğan? I doubt it.

1. Provocation? You're blaming the victim basically? Not the first time I've seen a supporter of Turkish ethnocentrism do so.
2. If Germany can do it, Turkey should as well.
3. Southern Cyprus is not occupied by Greek soldiers, southern Cyprus is a sovereign country.
4. So it's just conjecture because you're a Kemalist nationalist, basically.

[Deleted]

Not sure, they aint excatcly terrible either, but comparing them to other european countries, it makes them look bad.

We shoulden't haft to invite every country, if they cant provide something usefull.

I can understand from an ethical point of view. Although we do our share of bad stuff over here too. But from an economical/political point of view there is plenty of benefits.
A strong country rich in industries and resources...

[rnbwtrout]

This is would be true if you said western Europe, however Europe also encompasses Russia and Eastern Balkan countries which never recognised the primacy of the bishop of Rome. As for feudalism, it also was very different and in fact the Russian muzhik was in very different position than an English free man or a member of the polish slazchta. In fact you would find, than some of the Eastern European countries would, even in middle ages be more comparable to some Oriental despocies, than to the enterprising and relatively free England.

Actually if you widen your gaze, you will see that almost all civilisations had feudalism as their "regime" at some point of their development.

well, we're talking about the eu. russia is not a part of the eu. and because of russian inflluence, her neighbor countries were at a cultural crossroads. i agree feudalism sprang up all around the world. but eu feudalism sprang up at the same time because they were all entertwined. once the renaissance hit, all the eu came out of feudalism as well at about the same time.

[Makatafinger]

Again: It's not about blaming anyone for what happened back then.
It's about the fact that even Erdogan refuses to admit that it did happen, let alone countless "regular" people.

Also, how can you provoke the killing of 300.000 to more than 1.000.000 people?

Well, Erdoğan will refuse today and tomorrow he will cry for the Armenians. And 3 days later, he will say that Israil did the genocide. His words are not to be trusted.

I dont know if it is a provocation. There is little knowledge of what happened other than stories that our grandparents and Armenian neighbours tell. I do not know who gave the command for that tragic event. In times of war people can be provoked easily. Back then Turks were ready to kill anyone to defend their towns without a reason because they were scared. I'm not saying it makes it ok to kill people dont get me wrong.

It happened almost 100 years ago, nobody is sure about the motive. It may just be an order from Ottoman Emperor "kill em all" you know. I really dont want to get into something that is really sensitive and offend someone.

[Wikiy]

Fair enough, but why should I fell to have more in common with say an aforementioned Italian farmer than say a nurse living in New York?

You shouldn't. I have absolutely nothing against people who don't have this European identity that I have and I recognize that you're the majority which is why I wouldn't want a fully united Europe just yet. I should note, however, that I am also for the eventual unification of the entire world, not just Europe.

So yeah, I'd be even happier if I lived in a world which was getting close and closer to unification, a world where there was such a thing as a global national identity. Of course, that makes the whole notion of "national" moot, but I'm just using the word to compare the feelings of belonging which would be more or less the same.

I don't have a rational reason as to why I have a European identity, but it might have something to do with the fact that I'm for the unification of humanity, and the EU is the first step towards that. What's funny about all of this is that I'm not even an EU citizen. I haven't been affected by any "EU propaganda", if anything, I've been listening to anti-EU propaganda for as long as I've had political opinions. Yet for some reason, if there's one thing I politically want the most, it's a federal Europe. I couldn't even begin to describe to you how happy I'll be to become a EU citizen in 4 months' time.

[Makatafinger]

4. So it's just conjecture because you're a Kemalist nationalist, basically.

I'm not a Kemalist per say but I'm not a racist, I'm not a fanatic muslim, I'm not a nationalist either. I'm a citizen of Turkey who follows Atatürk's teachings, reforms and revolutions. I dont want my country to be divided by hatred or corruption.

[Deleted]

You shouldn't. I have absolutely nothing against people who don't have this European identity that I have and I recognize that you're the majority which is why I wouldn't want a fully united Europe just yet. I should note, however, that I am also for the eventual unification of the entire world, not just Europe.

So yeah, I'd be even happier if I lived in a world which was getting close and closer to unification, a world where there was such a thing as a global national identity. Of course, that makes the whole notion of "national" moot, but I'm just using the word to compare the feelings of belonging which would be more or less the same.

I don't have a rational reason as to why I have a European identity, but it might have something to do with the fact that I'm for the unification of humanity, and the EU is the first step towards that. What's funny about all of this is that I'm not even an EU citizen. I haven't been affected by any "EU propaganda", if anything, I've been listening to anti-EU propaganda for as long as I've had political opinions. Yet for some reason, if there's one thing I politically want the most, it's a federal Europe. I couldn't even begin to describe to you how happy I'll be to become a EU citizen in 4 months' time.

Hopefully it won't collapse beforehand

[Zoranon]

well, we're talking about the eu. russia is not a part of the eu. and because of russian inflluence, her neighbor countries were at a cultural crossroads. i agree feudalism sprang up all around the world. but eu feudalism sprang up at the same time because they were all entertwined. once the renaissance hit, all the eu came out of feudalism as well at about the same time.

This is still extremely west European centric, EU encompasses such countries as Poland, Bulgaria, Romania which did not see much of a Renassaince and in which institutions of feudalism such as tight serfdom remained for long after (For example it lasted until 1848 in Austrian empire, which sure as hell wasn't. under the influence of Russia).

---------- Post added 2013-02-24 at 10:35 PM ----------

You shouldn't. I have absolutely nothing against people who don't have this European identity that I have and I recognize that you're the majority which is why I wouldn't want a fully united Europe just yet. I should note, however, that I am also for the eventual unification of the entire world, not just Europe.

So yeah, I'd be even happier if I lived in a world which was getting close and closer to unification, a world where there was such a thing as a global national identity. Of course, that makes the whole notion of "national" moot, but I'm just using the word to compare the feelings of belonging which would be more or less the same.

I don't have a rational reason as to why I have a European identity, but it might have something to do with the fact that I'm for the unification of humanity, and the EU is the first step towards that. What's funny about all of this is that I'm not even an EU citizen. I haven't been affected by any "EU propaganda", if anything, I've been listening to anti-EU propaganda for as long as I've had political opinions. Yet for some reason, if there's one thing I politically want the most, it's a federal Europe. I couldn't even begin to describe to you how happy I'll be to become a EU citizen in 4 months' time.

Ah I see. Thing is the only sure thing that a federal Europe would bring would be yet another layer of government to churn out more regulations and restrictions, a layer which would be very difficult to get away from. EU should, in my opinion be about free movement of people and good and perhaps services too. There is nothing to be gained from further integration, only more regulations on how one should live his life.

[Kalis]

3. Southern Cyprus is occupied by Greek soldiers.

No it isn't.

There are about 1,000 Greek soldiers stationed in Cyprus (ΕΛΔΥΚ). Under no circumstances could they be called an occupation force, and their presence has been agreed by all sides since 1959.

The UN estimates there are 30,000 Turkish soldiers currently in the occupied zone. Far larger than the 1959 agreed force, which is supposed to be similar to the Greek level.

For comparison; the Cypriot army numbers 12,500 with 75,000 armed reservists, and there are about 3,500 British troops on the Cyprus bases.


Edit: found the Turkish army numbers.

[rnbwtrout]

This is still extremely west European centric, EU encompasses such countries as Poland, Bulgaria, Romania which did not see much of a Renassaince and in which institutions of feudalism such as tight serfdom remained for long after (For example it lasted until 1848 in Austrian empire, which sure as hell wasn't. under the influence of Russia).

well, im sure we can go back and forth and nitpick, but the core issue was whether the eu had any relations. i think the argument that the eu has a long historical relation is much much more tenable than the argument that the eu has no relations.

[Nelle]

No thanks, we don't want them.
We got enough poor countries to take care of in EU as it is.

As long as Turkey don't bring anything useful to the table we are much better off without them. Also a muslim/islam country does NOT fit into the EU philosophy and will only cause problems.