Varian should be exiled from the alliance.

[Maximus Testiculos]

Varian only attacked thrall and sylvanas in undercity after he saw human skeletons and innocents being a play-tool for the forsaken.

I think an alliance leader actually caring about his country seems weird to some people. All they talk about is how there must be a unity to fight some bigger threats.
But if alliance lets everyone walk over them every time for some false unity, there won't be any alliance left to fight those bigger threats.

Since the start all of varian's actions have been about defending the alliance. I don't see anything to hate about him.

[Florena]

Varian only attacked thrall and sylvanas in undercity after he saw human skeletons and innocents being a play-tool for the forsaken.

I think an alliance leader actually caring about his country seems weird to some people. All they talk about is how there must be a unity to fight some bigger threats.
But if alliance lets everyone walk over them every time for some false unity, there won't be any alliance left to fight those bigger threats.

Since the start all of varian's actions have been about defending the alliance. I don't see anything to hate about him.

Yeah, people often say 'it was ROGUE forsaken that did the wrathgate!' While that's true, the Forsaken did many bad things like experimenting on alliance captives since vanilla.

[Deleted]

And even prior to this, when Jaina tried to hold a peace summit in theramore, at the very drop of a hat, when Thrall was trying to make peace with Varian, the second Varian saw Garona, he attacked Thrall, accusing him of backstabbing him, without even listening or trying to. He made first strike, not Thrall, not Garrosh.

Oh, so you forgot to mention a tiny little bit detail about the fall of Stormwind? Let me refresh your memory: King Llane assassinated by his "seemingly" trusted half-orc friend Garona. Which, Varian witnessed by his own very two eyes btw. After that he went to exile for awhile, lost his memory and served as a Gladiator in orc arenas... But I am sure those wouldn't be enough reason to attack Garona on sight, right?

[Skytotem]

And Thrall wasn't a gladiatorial slave to the Alliance? Yet he didn't hold grudges. That's character. Varian is a whiny little bitch.

Thrall met nice humans.

Every orc Varian met aside from Thrall at the peace meeting has been an ass, or stabbed his father and cut his heart out.

[Aquamonkey]

Theramore was a legitimate target. The problem is HOW it was done. Dropping a nuke on it was not really seen as an acceptable tactic in war. It can't even be argued that Garrosh did so to save his own troops...because he sent them in and got a lot of them killed off anyway. He nuked a city he knew was filled with civilians and killed off a lot of his own troops as a diversion.

He sent them in on foot anyway. He got massive losses. Would he have had more without the bomb? Maybe....but part of the reason his troops got hit so hard was because he let Theramore be fortified because he waited. Had he thrown his troops at Theramore without waiting, he likely would have taken the city and his losses may even have been less.

Garrosh did a lot of posturing with his army outside Theramore. He made sure they knew he was coming and that he had a massive army. His goal wasn't to reduce his own casualties; it was to inflict maximum casualties on the Alliance.

The only stupid thing that makes absolutely no sense is Songweaver. Songweaver was sent in as a saboteur to tear down one of the gates. This served no purpose. Even Songweaver knew Garrosh's siege was a feint. Garrosh's entire plan would have gone perfectly fine without Songweaver. If Songweaver had actually succeeded, it could have completely ruined the plan by allowing Garrosh's army to breach and take Theramore conventionally.

IMO, it was just some contrived BS to set up for the Purge.

[Skytotem]

Garrosh did a lot of posturing with his army outside Theramore. He made sure they knew he was coming and that he had a massive army. His goal wasn't to reduce his own casualties; it was to inflict maximum casualties on the Alliance.

The only stupid thing that makes absolutely no sense is Songweaver. Songweaver was sent in as a saboteur to tear down one of the gates. This served no purpose. Even Songweaver knew Garrosh's siege was a feint. Garrosh's entire plan would have gone perfectly fine without Songweaver. If Songweaver had actually succeeded, it could have completely ruined the plan by allowing Garrosh's army to breach and take Theramore conventionally.

IMO, it was just some contrived BS to set up for the Purge.

How is that 'ruining' the plan that sounds like a win win scenario...?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The only person I think that is probably as worse as Garrosh is possibly Trassk for getting so angry at him.

[Zalinea]

Varian is not the problem and is not responsible for this war in the slightest. If anything he has shown way too much restraint which annoys us alliance players. The Orcs have ALWAYS been the problem. They were on their world and now they are here on OUR world causing headache and problems for everyone. They are the reason we are at war. ALL of the other horde races except forsaken would get along just fine with the Alliance to a certain degree. Loooooong before demon taint they were still warmongering idiots killing other races and each other. Then the taint came and it made it worse. They invaded our world, got beat, lost the taint, escaped their camps, and are doing it all over again. Why dont they just go back home? Why do they insist and fighting all the time? More importantly, how do all the races of azeroth not see this obvious pattern and just deport them??

I haven't chimed in on this post yet but the sheer ignorance in this post has moved me to posting. I'm not going to expound on all the buttons that Varian has pushed and fights he has instigated, that would take too long. But, the "looooooong before demon taint" line is pure BS. On Dreanor, before the demon taint they were a largely peaceful, shamanistic society, only fighting to defend their families and provide for them. Also the only "native" race to Azeroth were the trolls. All the humans, gnomes, dwarfs, nightelves, etc were created by the titans. So just because the alliance was on azeroth longer doesn't mean they own it... plus the starting races of the horde, tauren/orcs, went to a completely different continent and would've been just fine if the humans had not tried to chase/hunt them down. The other two races became what they are because of members of the alliance and nightelves(who weren't part of the alliance at the time)
Also, as a side note, when the warsong clan set up camp in Ashenvale, they were attacked without warning by the night elves and responded in kind. Again the night elves were not part of the alliance at this time... they even attacked the humans that followed the orcs.

[sariouso]

I agree completely. I think Garrosh and Varian should be executed. In my opinion, the ideal leaders are Anduin or Jaina for the alliance and Vol'Jin or Thrall for the horde.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I agree completely. I think Garrosh and Varian should be executed. In my opinion, the ideal leaders are Anduin or Jaina for the alliance and Vol'Jin or Thrall for the horde.

No, just no I like Anduin and Jaina but Varian shouldn't be executed.

[Aquamonkey]

How is that 'ruining' the plan that sounds like a win win scenario...?

The entire plan was to drop the bomb. I can see having Songweaver there as a contingency if the bomb failed. But Songweaver tears down the gate way before the bomb was dropped. If they breached the gate, they'd either have to ignore it and tip off the Alliance that something weird is happening. Or they charge in, then retreat before the bomb and tip off the Alliance that something weird is happening. Or they charge in and Garrosh drops the bomb on his own troops too (this seems unlikely since we're sent in to rescue Songweaver).

In the Scenario, the PCs are told it's a contingency plan to infiltrate Theramore because the siege failed. So, okay maybe Songweaver was tearing down the gate to help the siege. Except, this is completely wrong. Songweaver, himself, tells us the siege is a feint and the bomb is coming. Why did he needlessly break his cover for something he knew wasn't going to help the plan?

Bad writing so they can have an excuse to cast doubt on Sunreaver loyalty.

[Skytotem]

The entire plan was to drop the bomb. I can see having Songweaver there as a contingency if the bomb failed. But Songweaver tears down the gate way before the bomb was dropped. If they breached the gate, they'd either have to ignore it and tip off the Alliance that something weird is happening. Or they charge in, then retreat before the bomb and tip off the Alliance that something weird is happening. Or they charge in and Garrosh drops the bomb on his own troops too (this seems unlikely since we're sent in to rescue Songweaver).

In the Scenario, the PCs are told it's a contingency plan to infiltrate Theramore because the siege failed. So, okay maybe Songweaver was tearing down the gate to help the siege. Except, this is completely wrong. Songweaver, himself, tells us the siege is a feint and the bomb is coming. Why did he needlessly break his cover for something he knew wasn't going to help the plan?

Bad writing so they can have an excuse to cast doubt on Sunreaver loyalty.

No, the plan was to take Theramoore or destroy it. The bomb and the weakening of the gate were both means to that end, if the gate had worked then WOO you have a spare bomb, if the gate DOESN'T work then you have the bomb just in case.

The idea that the 'point' was to drop the bomb is ludicrous, no one goes to war just so they can drop bombs, they drop bombs so they can win war.

[Aquamonkey]

No, the plan was to take Theramoore or destroy it. The bomb and the weakening of the gate were both means to that end, if the gate had worked then WOO you have a spare bomb, if the gate DOESN'T work then you have the bomb just in case.

The idea that the 'point' was to drop the bomb is ludicrous, no one goes to war just so they can drop bombs, they drop bombs so they can win war.

Thalen Songweaver says: The "failed" siege was merely a feint, of course. You didn't realize?
Thalen Songweaver says: Even now an airship draws near; its arcane payload will flatten Theramore Isle and everyone still standing upon it.

Plan was always to drop the bomb.

EDIT: If the plan was to capture Theramore, he would have just done it. He wouldn't have postured his army outside the gates waiting for them to pile more reinforcements into the city before attacking.

[Deathgoose]

You know thats really rude, people get banned all the time and it sucks. He's a big contributor to these forums and doesn't need to be made fun of while he can't reply.

While I agree it is bad form to make fun of others, I am going to wager this current ban session was for something more than just making this topic. And this is not the first time he had some form of meltdown and was banned.

And while I won't even argue that he is a (mostly) positive contributor to the forums, this particular topic? Come on, let's be honest, it's a pretty stupid knee-jerk reactionary one created in response to that other equally stupid thread.

[kingriku]

While I agree it is bad form to make fun of others, I am going to wager this current ban session was for something more than just making this topic. And this is not the first time he had some form of meltdown and was banned.

And while I won't even argue that he is a (mostly) positive contributor to the forums, this particular topic? Come on, let's be honest, it's a pretty stupid knee-jerk reactionary one created in response to that other equally stupid thread.

Pretty sure if you look he just got an infraction on one of his post and points add up. Ive been banned before for saying ^this. The points add up and sometimes your banned for a bit, but that doesn't make it right for everyone as soon as they see it to start making fun of him. Show some restraint and just keep it to yourself.(Not you in particular but everyone on here)

On Topic: They won't kill varian or exile him as they just made him the "High King"

[Zalinea]

Varian mistrust of the horde is justified for the events the orcs did to him as a child, also what about Garrosh bigotry to the other horde races. Tauren are nothing more to garrosh but his water-gathers, to garrosh,Vol'jin and his people are nothing more then primitive savages, Goblins are nothing more then to him then his tools to make weapons of mass destruction, the forsaken are nothing more then cannon fodder, check Slyvannas short story where Garrosh sent mostly forsaken to attack the Greymane wall. Oh, and now the blood elves who Garrosh just see's has his researchers on magical secrets, and he sacrificed blood elves in the sunreavers to become a scapegoat for Jaina to blame them. Also lets for forget that Garrosh stole the focusing Iris from the Blue Dragonflight to make that abomination of a mana bomb for Theramore. Garrosh was always a tool and a dictator who only cares for the orcs not the other races. Hes no better then Gul'dan or Blackhand and hes turned the orcs into the bloodthristy warmongering conqueors they were in Warcraft 1. So next time you blame Varian for the Garrosh's actions, maybe you should think more clearly that hes just a asshole. Also i am sure Thrall will be fixing that mistake he made when the Cataclysm started. the Horde are already thinking rebellion as of now.

Varian's excuse of poor me my parents died and i was a gladiator wahhhh means nothing compared to what Thrall went through. He was orphaned, because of betrayal by his own race, raised by a human to be a gladiator, beaten, had his best friend murdered, then when he tried to leave was hunted repeatedly.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 03:22 PM ----------

Yes, so because the cdevs wrote it that way, they wrote that the Orcs haveno practical skills whatsoever, or any interest in them. They know how to steal, kill, pillage and loot. Anything else is of no value. Thrall tried to break them from this mindset. Garrosh encourages and rewards it.

that happened after the Orcs launched into Ashenvale on their thieving campaign of terror.

unrealistic time table and they were likely never starving anyways. they wanted wood for more war machines...


Unfortunately with the plot armour and bias the Orcs get, they will never be written as defeated, at the mercy of the people they tried to destroy. Never be written as suffering worse for their shit choices. They will not even have a dent because the mercy of the writers is upon them. The Alliance will suffer, the rest of the Horde will suffer, the Orcs will never suffer.

Wrong. When the orcs went into Ashenvale to get wood it was to build their city. The nightelves were not associated with the alliance at this time.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 03:30 PM ----------

The Night Elves attacked because they picked up on the Orcs' demonic taint. You can't really blame them for assuming that they were Legion-affiliated. Their past experience would have told them that demons were non-negotiable.

There is no lore to support that.

[Seebach]

Trassk got banned? :S And here i was refreshing the page waiting for him to reply to my " Varian angered a nobody until thrall made him a somebody" line regarding Garrosh.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8198?page=5#96

[Zalinea]

Orcs can be blamed every bit for the events in WoW.

This statement could not be more wrong.

Who opened the Dark Portal to let the Horde into Azeroth?........... Medivh = Human
Who destroyed the kingdom of Lorederon and Quel'Thelas?........... Arthas = Human
Who caused the shattering? .................................................. Night Elves

[Lyaelan]

I actually agree that Varian used to be a psychopath.

But, he's definitely mellowed. I wouldn't mind his son taking over (which will happen eventually anyway, I hope.) But he seems to be the calm one now, compared to Jaina.

[Aquamonkey]

This statement could not be more wrong.

Who opened the Dark Portal to let the Horde into Azeroth?........... Medivh = Human
Who destroyed the kingdom of Lorederon and Quel'Thelas?........... Arthas = Human
Who caused the shattering? .................................................. Night Elves

Cataclysm?......................................................Old Gods via Deathwing