Do you think Blizzard is taking the right approach with T15?

[hyphnos]

Punishing the Majority? It's also a way of gating content for people who just run LFR, so they don't feel overwhelmed and have to run all 4 wings right off the bat.

Because we don't have 5 sections that we can do every week right now or anything so it clearly will be sooo overwhelming compared to what we're used to.

They're doing it to:
1) limit faction for LFR people
2) limit faction for normal mode raiders who can't beat the content
3) string out LFR players subs
4) make it so a small number of normal raiders who can beat it fairly quickly can "see" it in normal before LFR

They could care less if people run 1 or 5 or 10 sections of LFR per week as long as they do it enough for them to continue justifying raid development costs.

[Mawnix]

Because we don't have 5 sections that we can do every week right now or anything so it clearly will be sooo overwhelming compared to what we're used to.

They're doing it to:
1) limit faction for LFR people
2) limit faction for normal mode raiders who can't beat the content
3) string out LFR players subs
4) make it so a small number of normal raiders who can beat it fairly quickly can "see" it in normal before LFR

They could care less if people run 1 or 5 or 10 sections of LFR per week as long as they do it enough for them to continue justifying raid development costs.

Postponing each wing of LFR by a week each is an issue I fail to see.

And if development costs were such an issue, we wouldn't be having a massive, Ulduar eque raid.

Don't drag "price" into this.

[Prokne]

Punishing the Majority? It's also a way of gating content for people who just run LFR, so they don't feel overwhelmed and have to run all 4 wings right off the bat.

Except casual LFR raiders dont really feel obligated to run everything right away. I would say most of them at least. They could have higher ilvl reqs the farther into the raid it is since a lot of people dont have the ilvl to even do T15 LFR.

Its better to give people the opportunity to decide for themselves instead of artificially controlling their access. The only thing they should do is delay LFR for a week after the raid starts so people can see the end when they feel more accomplished.

[Cernunnos]

Or they could give mobs AI and have them adapt to the raid and the raid tactics. That would be fun.

Psycho Mantis in Metal Gear Solid?

[Sinndra]

The two different lines you say rather contradict themselves dont they? On one point, you state that its good when everyone feels they contributed to the kill, yet in the second line you state that by not doing the absolute best dps on the boss target...you are contributing as much as you should.

This has been a problem with raid and group thinking ever since TBC when dps meter mods became much more commonly used.

Doing the best possible dps on a boss is not an indication that you are doing the best for your raid. Dealing with the boss mechanics and downing the boss as a group in the best of your ability is how you tell a good raider from a bad one. People get so caught up in a single part of dps meter mods that its mind numbing. There are other things like dmg taken, deaths, dispels, overhealing, etc. that you never see people look at. Damage and healing meters are used to gauge your ability to do just those two things, and have no indication on if you are doing a good job or not as a whole.

For your example, if you were so concerned about the dps part of the fight, why not worry about how much dps you are doing to the adds that come every 3 sec? Would that not be a better indication of who is doing a good job in the raid? You see the adds as a hindrance of your dps on the boss, yet the adds ARE part of the boss as a whole, like every other mechanic in an encounter.

There is much more to a raid fight than topping the dps charts, and this is what blizzard has been saying over and over again for years, yet players are only concerned with with being within a few % of each other in dps at all times. This means that when there is an encounter that requires you to move out of fire...or to stop attacking a boss, almost all dps/healers cringe at the idea of dealing with the fight mechanic, because they think that losing some "potential" dps/hps on a boss makes them a bad raider.

Someone has to man up and chase down those adds, kite the orbs, click the buttons....and yet we stigmatize those players because they arnt doing as much dps as the players that refused do leave the warming embrace of the boss's bosom.

"Too many chiefs, not enough Indians" , as the saying goes.

nah you missed my point completely. the person i was talking to was saying that boss fights with little to no movement, is to help melee people. if melee has to run all over the place for the sake of mechanics.. they dont get as much up time on a boss.. which is different for casters, we can be at a distance following mechanics and still dps.

mechanics that involve players more (not just move out of fire or die) but actual engaging mechanics like kicking turtles, is what boss fights need. only tailored more towards melee, so that they feel needed on some fights. its easier to sit melee in favor of casters on most fights. and thats because of mechanics usually.

DPS meters have never really been my thing anyway. im not in a world first guild. i would rahter have somebody in my raid that does slightly lower DPS but can actually handle mechanics and LIVE, instead of somebody who has extremely high burst, but dies the minute they have to move even a tiny inch because they cant comprehend mechanics.

[Granyala]

The only thing they should do is delay LFR for a week after the raid starts so people can see the end when they feel more accomplished.

I thought that was the plan?

They delay the other wings because it'll take a few weeks till you get through wing 1 in a reasonable pace anyways. All those facerollers have to learn the fights first.
I still remember Garalon, Elegon and Spine in week 1. ^_^

if melee has to run all over the place for the sake of mechanics.. they dont get as much up time on a boss.. which is different for casters, we can be at a distance following mechanics and still dps.

No. In fact Melee has a much easier time DPSing while the whole encounter is moved, unless the mechanics force them to step away from the boss and be outside of melee range.
If I move as a caster, I do *zip*. Sure there's DoTs rolling and I might get an instant proc, but thats it.

[Mawnix]

Except casual LFR raiders dont really feel obligated to run everything right away. I would say most of them at least. They could have higher ilvl reqs the farther into the raid it is since a lot of people dont have the ilvl to even do T15 LFR.

Its better to give people the opportunity to decide for themselves instead of artificially controlling their access. The only thing they should do is delay LFR for a week after the raid starts so people can see the end when they feel more accomplished.

Hmm, this reasoning makes me sense to me.

Your argument actually makes sense to me.

Ah well, we'll see how it works out.

[Deleted]

Less tight enrage timers is a good thing.

Less playing your actual character, not so much.

As for the game being based around gimmicks, it's supposed to be an RPG. Generally in an RPG if you can't beat a boss, you go away, gear/level up, come back and win. 10/25 man simultaneous dancing choreography checks are alright I guess but meh.

[Granyala]

As for the game being based around gimmicks, it's supposed to be an RPG. Generally in an RPG if you can't beat a boss, you go away, gear/level up, come back and win.

So every boss should be like Patchwerk? Damn that would be one lousy and boring game. oO
Also quite differs from RPGs I know. Usually bosses have abilities that are fatal to your character and you have to avoid them somehow and beat the boss with a mixture of cunning and strength. Sometimes that means just stepping away/hiding when he does something, or it means you have to use your abilities to counter his.

[Otimus]

Postponing each wing of LFR by a week each is an issue I fail to see.

And if development costs were such an issue, we wouldn't be having a massive, Ulduar eque raid.

Don't drag "price" into this.

They should also postpone the normal version too, then.

---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 11:10 PM ----------

Except casual LFR raiders dont really feel obligated to run everything right away. I would say most of them at least. They could have higher ilvl reqs the farther into the raid it is since a lot of people dont have the ilvl to even do T15 LFR.

Its better to give people the opportunity to decide for themselves instead of artificially controlling their access. The only thing they should do is delay LFR for a week after the raid starts so people can see the end when they feel more accomplished.

This is probably the most sense I've ever seen be made on this forum.

I love you.

[Granyala]

They should also postpone the normal version too, then.

They are postponing LFR because normal mode raiders shouldn't feel pressured to go LFR, which IMO is a GOOD thing.

If LFR would be released in week1, We'd all have to run in and get our rep to friendly so we can get the items from the faction. Blizzard obviously doesn't want that.

Be thankful that you even get LFR these days. Don't be greedy.

Its better to give people the opportunity to decide for themselves instead of artificially controlling their access.

Sad truth: People have proven that they cannot handle too many options.
Best and most recent example: daily factions.
Instead of:
"Wee I can break up the monotony of faction X and do Y today"
the result was
"FFFUUUU Blizzard making me do all these f§$(/% Factions at once!111"

[Prokne]

I thought that was the plan?

They delay the other wings because it'll take a few weeks till you get through wing 1 in a reasonable pace anyways. All those facerollers have to learn the fights first.
I still remember Garalon, Elegon and Spine in week 1. ^_^

Well apparently they are delaying parts of the LFR release past 1 week after normal. Unless normal is also gated but I havent seen anyone say that. Since there are 12 bosses in ToT there would probably be 3 LFRs which means it could be a month before you could be attempting the last part.

I actually kind of like the 1st week LFR is out. You get to learn new mechanics and tricks for the fights and figure out some strategies kind of like a normal raid. Of course the flaming and serial quitting is annoying but its nice to finally beat the boss after having to have some patience and teamwork. Besides Garalon which was overtuned, Elegon was 1 wipe where everyone learned to get out of the middle and Spine was maybe 1 wipe to roll or too many big adds.

---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 11:47 PM ----------

Sad truth: People have proven that they cannot handle too many options.
Best and most recent example: daily factions.
Instead of:
"Wee I can break up the monotony of faction X and do Y today"
the result was
"FFFUUUU Blizzard making me do all these f§$(/% Factions at once!111"

Except the people who cant handle options, hardcore players who feel obligated to do everything arent being penalized at all. They are still doing the raid that takes a lot of time and can do the new dailies. If anything they are being benefited by not having the opportunity to feel forced to do more stuff. To do this, they have to penalize the players that dont have a compulsion problem.

Heres a better solution: LFR shares a lockout with norm/heroic the first 4 weeks. LFR raiders dont normally raid higher than LFR(and if they do they can still go to LFR if they dont get into a pug that week), and other raiders wont be forced to run LFR unless their raid decides they cant do normal.

[Granyala]

Well apparently they are delaying parts of the LFR release past 1 week after normal. Unless normal is also gated but I havent seen anyone say that.

Normal won't be gated. I read it in blue, but of course I can't find the source right now. ._.
HC will be delayed by 1 week b/c of lockout and the need to kill normal Lei Shen.

LFR will be delayed by 1 week, but so far it's unknown if it'll be one week per additional wing or longer. Personally I think Blizzard wants to delay the other wings so casual gamers (and the facerollers) don't get bombarded with all the bosses at once, since a normal raid guild also automatically takes its time to progress.

Remember the dev said that an average group will need item level 520 for Lei Shen. So that will take some time.

Only hardcore heroic guilds will push through normal in week1 and they slowly progress in HC after that. Well except the world first freaks... but these are people from another planet anyway^^.

Heres a better solution: LFR shares a lockout with norm/heroic the first 4 weeks. LFR raiders dont normally raid higher than LFR(and if they do they can still go to LFR if they dont get into a pug that week), and other raiders wont be forced to run LFR unless their raid decides they cant do normal.

Have fun with 2 day queues and endless wipes on the first boss, because all the real raiders that drag randoms through need to save their IDs.

NOT a well thought out suggestion.

[Valium104]

lol yeah sure, casual as hell.
I think 7/16 is something that medicore guild achieved this tier if you doing 12/16 hc you must be doing 25 man and just being boosted through it by much better players then you feel you are.

Entire guild is casual. We raid 2 days in a week which was sufficient for guilds with 16/16hc. I'm in core squad too, for a reason. Before you ask, yes, we just extend lockouts, farm is pointless for us.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Gear check is not fun on normal, it makes for a very boring fight (/stare@Garalon). I don't like getting stuck on a gear check fight on normal cause it just wastes time out of the 5 or so hours a week my guild raids when we could be on a fight where we need to actually practice execution of mechanics. I've been playing too long for dps races to be enjoyable, now they just feel like a chore.

[Aphrel]

/pray they dont make another retarded encounter like that 3rd boss in terrace..

[Thage]

I'm perfectly willing to wait a little for LFR release to start doing Throne of Thunder raiding so Normal raiders don't feel pressured to hit up LFR for an early advantage--that way, people who are in LFR are in there because they want to be, not because they're pressured to be (which just causes sour attitudes all around). And focusing on mechanics over DPS races, I think, makes the fights feel more engaging, rather than just a target dummy to clean up on your way to the next boss.

That being said, I'm sure there's a happy medium in there that doesn't cost too much of either category.

[jax]

I just hope it's harder than T14. I shouldn't have even single boss on heroic, but with my casual play im 12/16 hc.

Not sure if this is a troll attempt or what but 12/16 HC puts your progression in the top 1-2% of all raiding guilds...

[JoeShmo]

nah you missed my point completely. the person i was talking to was saying that boss fights with little to no movement, is to help melee people. if melee has to run all over the place for the sake of mechanics.. they dont get as much up time on a boss.. which is different for casters, we can be at a distance following mechanics and still dps.

mechanics that involve players more (not just move out of fire or die) but actual engaging mechanics like kicking turtles, is what boss fights need. only tailored more towards melee, so that they feel needed on some fights. its easier to sit melee in favor of casters on most fights. and thats because of mechanics usually.

DPS meters have never really been my thing anyway. im not in a world first guild. i would rahter have somebody in my raid that does slightly lower DPS but can actually handle mechanics and LIVE, instead of somebody who has extremely high burst, but dies the minute they have to move even a tiny inch because they cant comprehend mechanics.

Ah, I see, I can totally get behind you on that. With regards to the melee vs caster, Im not entirely sure that blizzard will ever balance that out. But I really dont think they will need to, so long as they can get the playerbase to get away from dps crunching every encounter. When the fight is more about as you said, "actually handle mechanics and live" , and less about " Im not within 5% dps as the top dps" , people can just enjoy the encounters dynamically , and blizzard can start changing the classes back to being unique, instead of homogenizing them (like making melee and ranged act the same) in favor of narrowing the artificial dps disparity.

Its funny how the players themselves are the reason why the classes and raids are getting watered down, and yet they complain to blizzard about it.