Thunderforged: 25 man vs 10 man

[Dracodraco]

Mechanically 10-man is way harder, fewer raid cool downs to chain and thus lower dps/healing/dmg reduction, less CCs/interrupts, fewer combat resses relative to raid size (This is a big one considering that in 10's 1 person dying means 10% reduction in raid power as opposed to 4% in 25 man) and fewer people to perform the same logistics. The only thing that can make 25's harder is that they most likely consist of more bad players than in 10's, but that's it.

Mechanically 25 man is way harder, the raid damage is higher so you need to spread out and organize the raid cooldowns you have aviable, thus putting more strain on healers/DPS/raidleaders to get it right, there's more targets to CC/Interrupt making it much harder to organize, and one person dead means a wipe on heroic just like it does in 10 man. And because of less space, more people have to be concerned with AOE-damaging abilities which are present on almost every encounter this tier.



See how ignorant you sound? I just did the exact same as you did, just with 25 man, and all of the points are equally valid to yours. Blizzard are, contrary to belief, not dumb. If there's more Raid CD's aviable to 25 mans, that's because things do more *damage* in 25 mans. As an example, Durumu's Light Spectrum beams does 125K shared damage per tick to people in 10 man, and 375K shared dmg per tick to 25 man - thats not a x2.5 increase, but a x3, because 25 mans have more raid cds aviable, thus they have to up the damage.

The "combat ress" argument that people keep using also doesn't mean anything on "bleeding edge" progress - one dead person, be it 4% or 10% of a raids' overall power, will result in a wipe on any well-tuned boss fight (Garalon, Garajal, Sha of Fear, Protectors, Tsulong and the list goes on). You don't get to the point where you can lose raid members and still defeat the boss untill it's either on farm, nerfed, or you simply overgear it brutally.


They have done their best to make the two raid sizes equal in difficulty, and honestly, it isn't going to get much better. It seems to me like 10 mans might be a bit easier this time around in normals (remember, we haven't even SEEN heroics yet), because of the fact that so many of the encounters are reliant on teamwork - having just one person (or two) do something, as opposed to five, makes your chance of success MUCH higher in a 10 man enviroment on fights like Ji Kun, Dark Animus, Iron Qon and Lei Shen. On the other hand, having more people on a fight like Horridon and Primordius works to 25 man's advantage.

Can we just agree that the two sizes are different, shouldn't be compared, and that the number of 25 man guilds have been steadily plummeting because people like myself (the raid / guild leaders) can't be bothered herding 25 cats when we can herd 10 instead? Thanks ;_;.


As for the "ontopic" Thunder Forge deal -
I don't see an issue. 25 Man is harder to organize (and before you claim otherwise, kindly provide evidence that you've been the raidleader of both a 10 and 25 man heroic raid team. I can't be bothered to discuss with people that "thinks" they know what it's like), and getting recognised for that is quite nice. Would I have been happy with vanity pets/mounts instead of higher item levels? Sure. But I'm not going to complain about this, either.

[Deleted]

As for the "ontopic" Thunder Forge deal -
I don't see an issue. 25 Man is harder to organize (and before you claim otherwise, kindly provide evidence that you've been the raidleader of both a 10 and 25 man heroic raid team. I can't be bothered to discuss with people that "thinks" they know what it's like), and getting recognised for that is quite nice. Would I have been happy with vanity pets/mounts instead of higher item levels? Sure. But I'm not going to complain about this, either.

I've been a 25 man and 10 man raid leader. It has indeed been much harder to RL a 25 man during wows lifetime. That's just a tuning issue at blizzards end, however, because you could raid lead a guild only LFR if you want and that would be easier than logging in.

Quite why everyone else who isn't raid leading needs rewarding for that extra historical difficulty on the RL I have no idea. Care to explain the thinking behind it?

The TF thing won't work to incentivise 25 mans over 10s. Only 100% guaranteed better drops will do it, and I doubt blizzard have the balls to disrupt 80% of guilds again. If they do have the balls, lets hope common sense prevails over them anyway because 25 mans have been roundly rejected by the playerbase when given the choice.

[Dubalicious]

buff 10man rates with higher chance of TF (25%) and one more item dropping and it will be equal.

I don't think the point is to kill 25 man raiding.

[Deleted]

I don't see an issue. 25 Man is harder to organize (and before you claim otherwise, kindly provide evidence that you've been the raidleader of both a 10 and 25 man heroic raid team. I can't be bothered to discuss with people that "thinks" they know what it's like), and getting recognised for that is quite nice. Would I have been happy with vanity pets/mounts instead of higher item levels? Sure. But I'm not going to complain about this, either.

I have been an officer in 25man heroic raiding, and have been raidleading 10man heroic guilds. I am sure you are aware of the fact only a small portion of a 25man guild takes that extra load of work. Why are the other 20 (random number) being awarded simply for showing up?

Just because you find it a fact does not mean it is.

[Dubalicious]

Why are the other 20 (random number) being awarded simply for showing up?

Because it is nearly impossible to reward those few people who do the brunt of the work.

That poster DID say they would be fine if the reward *was not* related to gear. . .

[Akylios]

According to this wowprogress report: http://www.wowprogress.com/post/131_...-man_vs_25-man

seems its 10% for 10 man and 25% for 25 man, so iconic numbers lol

If we assume no tier drops (for simplicity's sake), the numbers you give would mean the following.

-------------------------------------
25 man raids:
-------------------------------------
10 bosses = 60 items of loot.
25% of 60 items = 15 TF item drops
-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
10 man raids:
-------------------------------------
10 bosses = 20 items of loot.
10% of 20 items = 2 TF item drops
-------------------------------------

Given the above criteria, this means 25 man raids are getting 7.5 times more thunderforged items (for 2.5 times more raiders) than 10 man raids.

That's not a minor difference in TF drop rates, it's an absolutely massive difference in TF drop rates. But I have no clue if the numbers given by wowprogress are accurate.

[Deleted]

If we assume no tier drops (for simplicity's sake), the numbers you give would mean the following.

-------------------------------------
25 man raids:
-------------------------------------
10 bosses = 60 items of loot.
25% of 60 items = 15 TF item drops
-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
10 man raids:
-------------------------------------
10 bosses = 20 items of loot.
10% of 20 items = 2 TF item drops
-------------------------------------

Given the above criteria, this means 25 man raids are getting 7.5 times more thunderforged items than 10 man raids. Taking 25 vs 10 man number differences into account, it would theoretically take 10 man raids three times as long as 25 man raids for every member to sport TF gear.

That's not a minor difference in TF drop rates, it's an absolutely massive difference in TF drop rates. But I have no clue if the numbers given by wowprogress are accurate.

This.

The number for 25s should be 15%(ish) instead; that still gives them an average of 9/60.

The fact of the matter is; a heck of a lot less gear is wasted in 25s than 10s. Of all the bosses we killed this week, my 10man got maybe 3 or 4 items that weren't DE'd or taken for the offspecs no-one ever gets to play. There's simply too much RNG with no mitigation in 10s and with the bosses also having such huge loot tables it only exacerbates the problem. I didn't manage to get a shield from tier 14 despite a total of 16 Spirit Kings kills because one simply didn't drop.

Until 10man stops having drops for specs/classes that aren't even present, 25man should not be getting almost 8 times the amount of TF loot per run. They have 2.5 times the players, not 8.

[Shanudis]

If your 10-man raid is wasting loot, it's because you didn't balance it properly with the right classes and specs. That's not 25 man raiders' problem. That's your problem.

[Deleted]

Mechanically 25 man is way harder, the raid damage is higher so you need to spread out and organize the raid cooldowns you have aviable, thus putting more strain on healers/DPS/raidleaders to get it right, there's more targets to CC/Interrupt making it much harder to organize, and one person dead means a wipe on heroic just like it does in 10 man. And because of less space, more people have to be concerned with AOE-damaging abilities which are present on almost every encounter this tier.

... It's normally equal.

For t14 there were only 2~ fights in the entire 16/16 heroic modes that were harder on 25 man, and I counted around 4 fights harder on 10 man. I'm in a 25 man guild.

[Akylios]

2.5 more people brings that down to 3x as many TF items per person. Potentially even closer to 2.5x per player with the larger benches 25s use.

I accounted for that in the post. I pointed out that 25 man raids are getting 7.5 times the TF drops for only 2.5 times the number of raiders. If the drop rates were equal, 25 man raids would be getting 2.5 times the number of TF drops.

This means that after having accounted for raid size differences, 25 man raids are still getting TF items three times faster. Without accounting for raid size differences (which would be silly) 25 man raids are getting TF gear 7.5 times faster.

[Ruffles]

The TF thing won't work to incentivise 25 mans over 10s.

I think it will help a bit but it may not be a massive change. Most of the players who play for loot instead of progress will go 25 man.

[Dracodraco]

Quite why everyone else who isn't raid leading needs rewarding for that extra historical difficulty on the RL I have no idea. Care to explain the thinking behind it?

Someone else asked basicly the same above, and to that, all I have to say is -
It depends entirely on your guild who the rewards goes to. As I'm in a high end progress guild, I'm obviously going to spread out the TF loot on the players who deserve it the most - but in a lesser prorgessed guild, I see no reason why a raid leader/officer couldn't get away with a "officers = prio on TF loot due to effort put in"-kind of thing. You already see the officers of "low end" guilds sporting FAR superior gear, because they're biased and get first pick.

And as I've said - I would have been happy with just a cosmetic (25 man "transmog"? pet? mount?) vanity reward. But I'm not going to yell at them for providing us with more TF items.

... It's normally equal.

For t14 there were only 2~ fights in the entire 16/16 heroic modes that were harder on 25 man, and I counted around 4 fights harder on 10 man. I'm in a 25 man guild.

Protectors, Will of the Emperor, Garajal, Spirit Kings, and Garalon were all slightly harder in 25 man - mainly due to organization required (5x soakers on protectors instead of 2x, double the adds and far less space comparable to adds/players to play around with, much tighter enrage, Less space and higher chance of hitting the shadow shield due to more players, longer pheromones chain). That's a few more than two. But as always, it's based on opinions - I "only" did progress in our 10 man alt run on protectors, Lei shi, ambershaper, zorlok and WOTE (1 night a week when everyone could be bothered does not leave alot of time), so I don't fully know about Shekzeer and Sha, but the rest of them I've got a pretty clear picture of.

[Deleted]

Protectors, Will of the Emperor, Garajal, Spirit Kings, and Garalon were all slightly harder in 25 man - mainly due to organization required (5x soakers on protectors instead of 2x, double the adds and far less space comparable to adds/players to play around with, much tighter enrage, Less space and higher chance of hitting the shadow shield due to more players, longer pheromones chain). That's a few more than two. But as always, it's based on opinions - I "only" did progress in our 10 man alt run on protectors, Lei shi, ambershaper, zorlok and WOTE (1 night a week when everyone could be bothered does not leave alot of time), so I don't fully know about Shekzeer and Sha, but the rest of them I've got a pretty clear picture of.

Protectors is a wash. Heroic elite after the nerf was easier than heroic normal. Will of the Emperor was a lot easier until they nerfed Ring of Frost (and by that time any guild worth their weight were done with Heroic Will items). I wouldn't count any fight as being harder due to "1-shot" mechanics, finding that 1 person from the extra 15 seems to suffer from eye sight issues doesn't really make an encounter harder in my opinion. My opinions were these:

harder on 10:
Empress, Sha of Fear

harder on 25:
Tsulong, Garajal

[Dracodraco]

Protectors is a wash. Heroic elite after the nerf was easier than heroic normal. Will of the Emperor was a lot easier until they nerfed Ring of Frost (and by that time any guild worth their weight were done with Heroic Will items). I wouldn't count any fight as being harder due to "1-shot" mechanics, finding that 1 person from the extra 15 seems to suffer from eye sight issues doesn't really make an encounter harder in my opinion. My opinions were these:

harder on 10:
Empress, Sha of Fear

harder on 25:
Tsulong, Garajal

Protectors when on progress was by no means "a wash". You're forgetting that heroic elite becomes easier as you no longer have to deal with the lightning storm+soaking (as regail dies first), and the entire point of heroic is to make sure you do the soaking perfectly even while under pressure - something you (realisticly) have had weeks to perfect in "normal". If you start out progressing and learning to control soaks with heroic elite, it would have seen MUCH harder than going from normal->elite, just saying. Learning a fight, farming it for a few weeks, then using a new tactic where you move a bit doesn't make elite easier <_<.

But going to end the whole 10 vs 25 here - different opinions, not going to change anyones minds anyway.

[Deleted]

Someone else asked basicly the same above, and to that, all I have to say is -
It depends entirely on your guild who the rewards goes to. As I'm in a high end progress guild, I'm obviously going to spread out the TF loot on the players who deserve it the most - but in a lesser prorgessed guild, I see no reason why a raid leader/officer couldn't get away with a "officers = prio on TF loot due to effort put in"-kind of thing. You already see the officers of "low end" guilds sporting FAR superior gear, because they're biased and get first pick.

In 25 man you might, you won't see it in 10 man because it's a lot easier to walk off from an unjust set up and make your own, fair one. Another reason why players prefer 10 man, there is less chance of them being used as one guys epeen boosting exercise.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying there is no need to give 25 mans more loot because the incentive to reward raid leaders already exists - they can gear up first. I still haven't seen an explanation why better loot for everyone should drop when it's one guy who gets all the extra effort.

If you run a factory and you have a team of ten with a supervisor and a team of 25 with a supervisor, all doing pretty much the same job - all the workers pay will be the same, and the 2 supervisors will be the only ones differently rewarded.

"I like it" isn't much of an objective argument.

And as I've said - I would have been happy with just a cosmetic (25 man "transmog"? pet? mount?) vanity reward. But I'm not going to yell at them for providing us with more TF items.

Well, no. Even though it doesn't address any of the actual issues, which person who is already doing something is going to turn down more reward for it?

[Royalite]

I have been an officer in 25man heroic raiding, and have been raidleading 10man heroic guilds. I am sure you are aware of the fact only a small portion of a 25man guild takes that extra load of work. Why are the other 20 (random number) being awarded simply for showing up?

Just because you find it a fact does not mean it is.

Quit doing all the work yourself!
My 25 man has pretty much everyone contributing through farming for flasks, food, donating mats and money.

We have a large officer team with 8 officers all assigned different roles.
Guild Leader and Raid Leader
*Role Officers* - all the role officers review logs in real time and give feedback to the Raid lead to help with the encounter also reviews logs and meets with raiders to improve performance.
Healing Officer
Melee DPS Officer
Range DPS Officer
Tank Officer
Recordingkeeping, Loot master and DKP tracking
Banker and Due Collector - uses bank funds to buy supplies and does AH for the guild
Supplier - tracks all our raid consumable (pots, flasks, food, enchant repairs, etc) and gives shopping list to the Banker

We have google docs shared with our guildies so they can see how all the money and items are being spent and so they can look at their DKP.

All our raiders are required to pay dues and also help support the guild by farming and donating materials.
Some help a lot and true some don't.

Overall I'd say about half the raid puts in extra work to keep everything smooth.

Based on my experience to help us officers not spend our life trying to maintain everything, we needed a lot of people to keep it manageable.
Also you might say oh that is just overkill but I noticed that if you put in more work and management, you have less drama.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying there is no need to give 25 mans more loot because the incentive to reward raid leaders already exists - they can gear up first. I still haven't seen an explanation why better loot for everyone should drop when it's one guy who gets all the extra effort.

If you run a factory and you have a team of ten with a supervisor and a team of 25 with a supervisor, all doing pretty much the same job - all the workers pay will be the same, and the 2 supervisors will be the only ones differently rewarded.

You're not going to manage well if you do this. There are DKP systems for a reason. You might be able to not use DKP in ten man but in 25 people (minus cutting edge) don't do well with looot councils.

[Radalek]

Blue post:

"Thunderforged items are less about getting 10 man raid groups to switch to 25 man than they are about rewarding 25 man groups for the increased complexity. "

[Deleted]

luck is luck, if 10% or 25% if you have the luck you will get this items, if not not

[Reith]

i would expect the drop rate to be roughly equal overall. though i wouldn't be surprised if 10man got a raw deal again.

Blizzard already explained that 10s are increasing while 25s are decreasing. Saying 10-man "got a raw deal" in this case is stupid. 10s are easier to maintain.

[Shazzabooey]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the problem regarding drop rates.

According to numbers from WoWprogress, 10 man has a 10 % chance while 25 man has a 25 % chance.

10 kills in 10man = 1 item, which means 10 % of the raiders get TF-loot.
10 kills in 25man = 2,5 items, which means 10 % of the raiders get TF-loot.

Obviously drop chance has to be higher in 25 man since there is more players to gear up. Thunderforged items are implemented to make the 30. farm kill more productive, not favouring 25man guilds.