No new 5-player dungeons in 5.4

[MasterHamster]

And it was a good thing. I don't understand why forcing players to go back to do old content is such a novel idea or even one worth pursuing. It just adds more grind to the game and adds more gates for players who want to see current content. Not sit around grinding old stuff. Why won't you slow yourself down deliberately? Why can't you choose to do daililes and why can't I choose to run heroics ad nauseum? I agree players choose the easiest route well now you know why dailies are forced. Because not doing them is a more difficult route.

Even with what you said I thought mists was loaded with content. My SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE suggestion to help increase the pace of the game SLIGHTLY somehow invalidated all that content? WEll then it didn't have very content did it? It was all just gated to appear that way.

Mostly cauise they were to hard for some. The forums tell quite a tale now actually.

You're funny. Do you also pick up a new book and skip to the end?

Now tell me, what would my incentative be to do dailies, to unlock valor items, when I could get much better items without leaving a city? Before then, doing dailies had a purpose, you unlocked items you "needed". Well that doesn't apply anymore.
What would be my incentative be to get a raid together for 5.0 raids, when I could get better items a lot easier by running dungeons?

The answer to why you can't gear up in a couple of sessions by doing dungeons is that it allows us to consume content too quickly. I know, it's horrible how MMOs try to gate us, so that we don't burn out and get bored.

Frankly I find it a bit amazing how you can think that a new tier should completely remove older content from progression. I want to progress through raids so I can face the next. I presume you somehow want to claim that it's reasonable that I should then completely ignore the new faction-less 500+ items, and instead deliberately try to progress at a much slower rate because I enjoy 5.0 raids.
Your suggestion TAKES AWAY CONTENT from me and many others.

Reality strikes: if dungeons were as rewarding as YOU want, it'd make MoP lose longevity.
That's how it is, I realize it, Blizzard realizes it, and luckily they aren't going to go your way. You can attribute whatever the next quarter sub losses will be to the fact that dungeons aren't rewarding items equal to Normal raids of the latest tier, that's fine.

Frankly the game would be better off if people with that attitude left. Keep progression in the game. Keep speeding up older content, but never make it irrelevant for a new 90. Don't repeat the shit of 4.3 when your endgame as a non-raider was 3 dungeons and 1 LFR
In 5.4, with the SoO raid? I doubt 5.0 faction items will be that relevant anymore. Perhaps then we'll get a large boost from dungeons, or by other means. Preferably the latter. Until then, 2 tiers relevant at a time is what they're going with.

And that makes content last longer, and gives us more to do. "forced grinding" or not.

Not every change is a good change and the label MMO is frankly meaningless. I don't care for such labels and i don't think the developers should get hung up on them. If people are interested in doing instanced content then they should provide and support that playstyle, I want the method to facilitate character progression that I enjoy with my friends. Theirs nothing wrong with that and I don't see why yourw ants and mine have to conflict.

Pretty goddamn easy to see how it conflicts, because your preferred method makes other routes unnecessary and less rewarding.
How can you possibly combine "players choose the easiest route" and near top level gear from the easiest 90 content there is?
Baffling.

[Leonard McCoy]

You're funny. Do you also pick up a new book and skip to the end?

Now tell me, what would my incentative be to do dailies, to unlock valor items, when I could get much better items without leaving a city? Before then, doing dailies had a purpose, you unlocked items you "needed". Well that doesn't apply anymore.
What would be my incentative be to get a raid together for 5.0 raids, when I could get better items a lot easier by running dungeons?

The answer to why you can't gear up in a couple of sessions by doing dungeons is that it allows us to consume content too quickly. I know, it's horrible how MMOs try to gate us, so that we don't burn out and get bored.

Frankly I find it a bit amazing how you can think that a new tier should completely remove older content from progression. I want to progress through raids so I can face the next. I presume you somehow want to claim that it's reasonable that I should then completely ignore the new faction-less 500+ items, and instead deliberately try to progress at a much slower rate because I enjoy 5.0 raids.
Your suggestion TAKES AWAY CONTENT from me and many others.

Reality strikes: if dungeons were as rewarding as YOU want, it'd make MoP lose longevity.
That's how it is, I realize it, Blizzard realizes it, and luckily they aren't going to go your way. You can attribute whatever the next quarter sub losses will be to the fact that dungeons aren't rewarding items equal to Normal raids of the latest tier, that's fine.

Frankly the game would be better off if people with that attitude left. Keep progression in the game. Keep speeding up older content, but never make it irrelevant for a new 90. Don't repeat the shit of 4.3 when your endgame as a non-raider was 3 dungeons and 1 LFR
In 5.4, with the SoO raid? I doubt 5.0 faction items will be that relevant anymore. Perhaps then we'll get a large boost from dungeons, or by other means. Preferably the latter. Until then, 2 tiers relevant at a time is what they're going with.

The suggestions I listed also apply to dailies. SO the dailies would have their valor gain increased, and the dailies would still give you charms, mounts, pets, valor, gold more reward than they've ever had before in the history of the game.

If mists is so content rich then it can afford to lose a little content by my suggestions. If people continue to leave the game because it's far to grindy and to gated for their taste then they will quickly change their minds and my feeling is that you will go along with them whatever they do.

Their is no reason to keep old content valid. Simple when the new raid comes out you should run it. That's it.

[Banzhe]

To me the ICC 5mans in WotLK and the Hour of Twilight 5mans in Cataclysm stood out in terms of storytelling and atmosphere, better than some of the raids in the game.

While that may be so (for you), for most I'd imagine they, current n' future 5mans serve nothing more then a fast gearing venue.., as far as the story / lore aspect goes, if that's the primary for some players, they can easily incorporate that into any other type of content, and by default it would be the best for that type of player.

[Leonard McCoy]

Pretty goddamn easy to see how it conflicts, because your preferred method makes other routes unnecessary and less rewarding.
How can you possibly combine "players choose the easiest route" and near top level gear from the easiest 90 content there is?
Baffling.

So in other words if they continue to cater to you I must get shut out in the cold. Well I hope they figure out some way around that because their just going to continue to lose players. Especially when they have other players on forums tell them to leave they aren't wanted. While that may be acceptable to you I'm not so sure it is to the developers I would expect some changes to come down the pipe here.

[Deleted]

Don't understand you whiners.

I'm really pleased they're focusing on more interesting relevant content than stupid 5 player dungeons. They can't let them drop heroics like before, so what, they'll drop blues? Yeah have fun with those. I'd much rather them tell stories through scenarios, 1player and 3 player and focus on CM old content like raids, and older dungeons.

Do you really want to go back to Cata/ICC running those 3 new heroics all day long?

[RickJamesLich]

This shift just has to be accepted. New five mans just do not server any sort of purpose, and if you want new challenge modes they've already hinted that they'd prefer to retool older content. Five mans are there to gear up before LFR, for quick valor runs and for challenge modes. That is their purpose, not catch up.

This pretty much, five mans are dead. To me at least, it seems like LFR and scenarios (only if you need the VP) are meant to be the new equivalent of 5 mans, as with 5 mans there is no reason to run them once you meet the LFR requirements, aside from wanting VP, which scenarios do without the long queue.... you can also toss dailies in there too, I think blizz likes dailies (even though some players detest them) because they get people out there in the world, leading to folks teaming up and world pvp, which ultimately is good for the game.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 11:47 AM ----------

Don't understand you whiners.

I'm really pleased they're focusing on more interesting relevant content than stupid 5 player dungeons. They can't let them drop heroics like before, so what, they'll drop blues? Yeah have fun with those. I'd much rather them tell stories through scenarios, 1player and 3 player and focus on CM old content like raids, and older dungeons.

Do you really want to go back to Cata/ICC running those 3 new heroics all day long?

I remember when ZA/ZG came out I loved them both for the first 5 days, after I got my bear mount I got tired with them though. After like another month of them I pretty much had to stop playing PvE because I couldn't stand doing them anymore lol.

[Deleted]

Yea. It's 2013 here people. You don't get hung up in the past you move the fuck on. I mean first of all I don't particularly care about their end of things. They spend months on it and it gets consumed and used up and it's enjoyed. That's the point. Attempting to stretch that out for as long as possible not only makes it feel grindy and stale it makes it feel cheap. Second of all I don't think it's a minority. In fact it's only BECOME a minority because the developers aren't supporting it as play style anymore. Put the gear behind it and voila look at that. It will get used. Exactly what they did to dailies.

Not every change is a good change and the label MMO is frankly meaningless. I don't care for such labels and i don't think the developers should get hung up on them. If people are interested in doing instanced content then they should provide and support that playstyle, I want the method to facilitate character progression that I enjoy with my friends. Theirs nothing wrong with that and I don't see why yourw ants and mine have to conflict.

I just hope people like you will leave WoW once and for all. 2013 generation my ass, Youy are the fucked up modern society drinking cola, eating burgers and watching celebs on your plasma, and when you play a game you want reward for every press of the button you do.

[Elim Garak]

You're funny. Do you also pick up a new book and skip to the end?

I certainly do not re-read all the previous books I have already read before reading a new one.

Now tell me, what would my incentative be to do dailies, to unlock valor items, when I could get much better items without leaving a city? Before then, doing dailies had a purpose, you unlocked items you "needed". Well that doesn't apply anymore.
What would be my incentative be to get a raid together for 5.0 raids, when I could get better items a lot easier by running dungeons?

If you need incentive to do content - then this content just sucks.
I thought people loved dailies - so what it is about incentives?

The answer to why you can't gear up in a couple of sessions by doing dungeons is that it allows us to consume content too quickly. I know, it's horrible how MMOs try to gate us, so that we don't burn out and get bored.

I am burned out right now with all this gating. There's not enough content. Actually there's as much content now as it was back then in every expansion. They didn't offer more content to do. Effectively speaking. They added some content like pet battles,etc. but by gating and slowing down the rest of the content people just don't have time to get to this new content. My pets are level 8 max - not all of them too.

Frankly I find it a bit amazing how you can think that a new tier should completely remove older content from progression.

Because it should, it always did ('cept for vanilla) and it worked well for PLAYERS.

Reality strikes: if dungeons were as rewarding as YOU want, it'd make MoP lose longevity.

No it won't because you are forgetting about alts. Many people have many level 85 alts which they have no time to level to 90 and gear up due to the nature of this expansion. This people are burning out on their mains.

That's how it is, I realize it, Blizzard realizes it, and luckily they aren't going to go your way. You can attribute whatever the next quarter sub losses will be to the fact that dungeons aren't rewarding items equal to Normal raids of the latest tier, that's fine.

Blizzard realizes nothing - it's all an experiment for them - EVERY expansion. And sub-loses or gains are the result of the experiment. With logical consequences for the next expansion.

Frankly the game would be better off if people with that attitude left. Keep progression in the game. Keep speeding up older content, but never make it irrelevant for a new 90. Don't repeat the shit of 4.3 when your endgame as a non-raider was 3 dungeons and 1 LFR
In 5.4, with the SoO raid? I doubt 5.0 faction items will be that relevant anymore. Perhaps then we'll get a large boost from dungeons, or by other means. Preferably the latter. Until then, 2 tiers relevant at a time is what they're going with.

Have you raided in Vanilla? Do you know what was required for a new 60 to get into raids? He had to do the whole progression path from greens to blues to MC (ZG) BWL AQ20 AQ40 Naxx. And for that he had to find a GUILD that would run him thru. At the time of AQ40 most raiding guilds could skip MC (ZG) and equip newbies in BWL or even AQ40 itself. Because 40-mans allow that.

Do you know that Vanilla was the time with the LEAST amount of raiders of all times?

Now for fresh 90 who will he run the outdated content of 5.0 with? Other fresh 90's? Ha! there won't be enough. because people cba to level alts, and those who do - gear them in their own guilds.

I leveled an alt to test it. I can only do heroics and MSV LFR (I don't have ilvl to do the rest and won't have for several weeks and thanks Blizzard for removing Elder charms quest - now I don't have those higher drop chance coins in LFR). There's no way I can find a pug into MSV normals. Because there isn't one.
So what about: "Don't repeat the shit of 4.3 when your endgame as a non-raider was 3 dungeons and 1 LFR"?

[Leonard McCoy]

I just hope people like you will leave WoW once and for all. 2013 generation my ass, Youy are the fucked up modern society drinking cola, eating burgers and watching celebs on your plasma, and when you play a game you want reward for every press of the button you do.

I am honored and grateful that you responded to my post. And may your first child be a masculine child.

[MasterHamster]

So in other words if they continue to cater to you I must get shut out in the cold. Well I hope they figure out some way around that because their just going to continue to lose players. Especially when they have other players on forums tell them to leave they aren't wanted. While that may be acceptable to you I'm not so sure it is to the developers I would expect some changes to come down the pipe here.

Cater to me? Hardly. I guess it's more due to the fact that I'm into game development that makes it a lot easier to see the reasoning behind the changes.
Won't add new dungeons because it nullifies progression since gear becomes so easily accessable.
Funnels people into those 2-3 new dungeons for the rest of the expansion, causing boredom.
ZA/ZG, HoTs dungeons, perfect examples how "more content" actually takes away content.

Dungeons became more rewarding in 5.2 (basically doubling the valor gain due to prices), but you refuse to use it because you won't unlock items.
Sooner or later they'll increase the rewards from dungeons, but they will remain a mere stepping stone into the rest of the content.

Sorry, but you're not going to get rep-less items that nullify all previous content this expansion.
And really, so far your strongest argument is "they will continue to lose players". That's it.
As I said, you'll attribute any coming sub loss to the lack of "unsupported dungeons", which I do not agree with.

Perhaps I am having an easy time here since the game is taking a route I find most beneficial to the game as a whole. Sure, if 5.2 literally threw i500+ items at me, I'd love it! See my character become stronger quickly.
And then what? How long would that last? How long would it keep me interested? A week? Two?

And now I have no real urge to leave the cities or do the older raids. No progression.
Imagine a ladder with one step at the bottom and one at the top, how much sense does that make.

[Lumineus]

Do you really want to go back to Cata/ICC running those 3 new heroics all day long?

... yes? Especially if the alternative is breaking my keyboard when I start doing LFR on my alts and get pack after pack full of failbags. This experience was shitty enough on my main, I do not care to repeat it on five other characters.

[Leonard McCoy]

Cater to me? Hardly. I guess it's more due to the fact that I'm into game development that makes it a lot easier to see the reasoning behind the changes.
Won't add new dungeons because it nullifies progression since gear becomes so easily accessable.
Funnels people into those 2-3 new dungeons for the rest of the expansion, causing boredom.
ZA/ZG, HoTs dungeons, perfect examples how "more content" actually takes away content.

Dungeons became more rewarding in 5.2 (basically doubling the valor gain due to prices), but you refuse to use it because you won't unlock items.
Sooner or later they'll increase the rewards from dungeons, but they will remain a mere stepping stone into the rest of the content.

Sorry, but you're not going to get rep-less items that nullify all previous content this expansion.
And really, so far your strongest argument is "they will continue to lose players". That's it.
As I said, you'll attribute any coming sub loss to the lack of "unsupported dungeons", which I do not agree with.

Perhaps I am having an easy time here since the game is taking a route I find most beneficial to the game as a whole. Sure, if 5.2 literally threw i500+ items at me, I'd love it! See my character become stronger quickly.
And then what? How long would that last? How long would it keep me interested? A week? Two?

And now I have no real urge to leave the cities or do the older raids. No progression.
Imagine a ladder with one step at the bottom and one at the top, how much sense does that make.

Oh I see their reasoning but I don't care. This is the cult of Blizzard. We no longer have players arguing as players we have players arguing in favor of game developers. It doesn't nullfy anything. SOME GEAR IS EASILY ACCESSIBLE but to say gear becomes easily accessible is disingenous. I would still want LFR gear because valor gear would be better but it wouldn't cover every slot and i'd be limited to how much of it I could by. Dailies aren't content if you don't like doing them so they become NON content making mists lack content.

I won't unlock items because I refuse to do dailies, ergo remove the requirement to unlock them. I don't understand what the problem is? You can still do your dailies and get all the other shit out of em. I mean you can still do em for mounts. I'm not here to argue the devlopment position because frnkly i don't give a shit. I'm not developing this game. I want what's fun. That's it. If it means they have to invest more into the game and pump out more dungeons and hire more people then do that.

If that's what you see as my strongest argument then you haven't been paying attention. In any event that's the only argument the developers will ultimately care about. Everybody want's to attribute sub loss to the games age but SOMEHOW the developers got it through their thick fucking skulls that ppealing to the vanilla BC crowd will rejuvenante the game and make it feel less old and stop the sub loss.

It would last as lonog as you want it to. If they through Ilvl 500 items your way you'd still be doing LFR. Nothing would stop you. Hell you'd still be doing HoF. Even in loot fest pinata 4.3 I was interested for a couple of months. Even in 4.0 I was interested in it for months. I was less interested in mists and unsubbed after a month. I'm more likely to continue subbing if I feel I've gotten some reward out of the game and want to continue getting reward and get my alts some reward. That doesn't happen in mists and I feel sub numbers will continue to decline because of it. Mists has to much stick and not enough carrot.

Leaving the cities because your prodded out by the gear wheel isn't a good decision. It's FORCED and phony and doesn't actually do anything to make the world more alive or anything like that all. In fact it's very easy to simple ignore the entire world and just go right for the quest objectives you need to finish your daily quests. Daily quests with gear don't KEEP YOU OUT IN THE WORLD, they prod you out there and then you afk in two moons.

[Anjerith]

5.3 is going to be a story patch, so the chances of a new dungeon are much, much better then than in 5.4 - which is a raid patch.

Barring a dungeon in 5.3, I can be absolutely certain of new scenarios in 5.3, which offer the same reward (valor) for 10 minutes of your time and an instant queue. Not sure who would want to go back to the dungeon method when the entire point of dungeons mid-expansion is to get valor to catchup anyway..

[Elim Garak]

Not sure who would want to go back to the dungeon method when the entire point of dungeons mid-expansion is to get valor to catchup anyway..

You can't just get valor to catch up. You can't spend it without rep. Dungeons at least give gear.

[MasterHamster]

Ugh, multi quote.

If you need incentive to do content - then this content just sucks.
I thought people loved dailies - so what it is about incentives?

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the most powerful drive in an MMO is to gear up, players often chose the least entertaining way if it's more rewarding and quicker.
People loved Ulduar, yeah? Seemed like it. And yet it more or less died with the TotC patch. Another tier of easily accessible items from AoEing dungeons.

With your logic, all content in the game sucks because players generally stop doing them when more easily acquired gear (and better) is implemented.
If I want to do content that doesn't earn me anything, I'll play a singleplayer game. In MMOs, I want to progress my character.

I am burned out right now with all this gating. There's not enough content. Actually there's as much content now as it was back then in every expansion. They didn't offer more content to do. Effectively speaking. They added some content like pet battles,etc. but by gating and slowing down the rest of the content people just don't have time to get to this new content. My pets are level 8 max - not all of them too.

And you don't see how letting people cap too quickly also causes burnouts? I get item upgrades quite frequently, I don't feel that gated. Atleast not unreasonably so.

Because it should, it always did ('cept for vanilla) and it worked well for PLAYERS.

it worked for players that played merely a few hours a week. How about those who play more?

No it won't because you are forgetting about alts. Many people have many level 85 alts which they have no time to level to 90 and gear up due to the nature of this expansion. This people are burning out on their mains.

Okayy, so it's okay to nullify old content because it'd make people level more alts.
I got a new 90 recently. With 100% rep bonus, reduced valor prices, I hit 475 within 3 days. Still not enough for ToT, but I'm getting there. Better than hitting 90 and wait for a set of 490 to be mailed to me. I'm not burning out because I moderate how I play.
Leveling an alt to 90 shouldn't warrant a Free Pass card to be on par with your main

Blizzard realizes nothing - it's all an experiment for them - EVERY expansion. And sub-loses or gains are the result of the experiment. With logical consequences for the next expansion.

MoP is a mix of what they've learned from previous expansions.
BC, don't gate players too much using attunements and whatnot
WotLK, players generally dislike hard dungeons
Cataclysm (or 4.3), never let players cap valor in 2 hours
Both LK/Cata, making world interaction useless for gear progression is a mistake, i.e no goddamn tabards, and don't let people catch up to the latest tier by farming dungeons

Have you raided in Vanilla? Do you know what was required for a new 60 to get into raids? He had to do the whole progression path from greens to blues to MC (ZG) BWL AQ20 AQ40 Naxx. And for that he had to find a GUILD that would run him thru. At the time of AQ40 most raiding guilds could skip MC (ZG) and equip newbies in BWL or even AQ40 itself. Because 40-mans allow that.

Do you know that Vanilla was the time with the LEAST amount of raiders of all times?

I raided in classic and BC, but I dislike the progression they had. No catch ups at all.
And no, that isn't contradictory at all. I very much enjoy that Blizzard are speeding up progression through older content without making them completely obsolete.

Now for fresh 90 who will he run the outdated content of 5.0 with? Other fresh 90's? Ha! there won't be enough. because people cba to level alts, and those who do - gear them in their own guilds.

I leveled an alt to test it. I can only do heroics and MSV LFR (I don't have ilvl to do the rest and won't have for several weeks and thanks Blizzard for removing Elder charms quest - now I don't have those higher drop chance coins in LFR). There's no way I can find a pug into MSV normals. Because there isn't one.
So what about: "Don't repeat the shit of 4.3 when your endgame as a non-raider was 3 dungeons and 1 LFR"?

There are plenty of people still doing them since 5.2 didn't hand out a set of gear. Like it or not, LFR is the catchup. If you can do a Normal with your guild, go ahead.
Blizzard isn't making it necessary to do normal 5.0 raids to hit the ToT LFR iLvl
Elder Charms are on the isle, if you're lucky you can get a solo scenario that rewards up to like 16 of those bastards.

And last time I looked, current endgame for a non-raider are:
all the dungeons, scenarios, easily unlocked valor items, a plethora of LFRs, storydriven factions, Isle of Giants and Thunder. You don't need to be a raider to get into ToT, but it might take a while.

[Lumineus]

5.3 is going to be a story patch, so the chances of a new dungeon are much, much better then than in 5.4 - which is a raid patch.

Historically, that's not been true. The only time it was -- with Zul'Again -- the accompanying raid was delayed on purpose because they couldn't launch a new PvP season due to ladder shenanigans with their new MMR system, and class balance issues. Otherwise, new dungeons always accompany a raid. With Sunwell, with Trial, with Icecrown, and with Dragon Soul.

[Leonard McCoy]

LFR is catch up for gear now? I thought it was just a way for casuals to see content. It never ends. If it's catch up then it's shittiest catch up ever. Gated and stuck at once a week is kinda funny. At that rate I'll be caught up after a month?

[Purpleisbetter]

I just hope people like you will leave WoW once and for all. 2013 generation my ass, Youy are the fucked up modern society drinking cola, eating burgers and watching celebs on your plasma, and when you play a game you want reward for every press of the button you do.

Not their fault, its us so obsolete that we grew up ith the silly idea of getting rewarded proportionally the efforts that have been made to achieve such a reward.

Thanks to God, Blizz is not allowing any dungeon catch-up; can't wait for more greedy and spoiled people to leave the game.

[Lumineus]

If you want to talk like that, you shouldn't give people the impression, via your signature, that all your toons are still stuck in "Casual"clysm...

[MasterHamster]

LFR is catch up for gear now? I thought it was just a way for casuals to see content. It never ends. If it's catch up then it's shittiest catch up ever. Gated and stuck at once a week is kinda funny. At that rate I'll be caught up after a month?

Yup, LFR is the catch up now. Mentioned by a blue.
Take it or leave it.

All the while I spend the valor from doing LFRs on easily unlocked items
You know, the part that is guaranteed to help me gear up.