No new 5-player dungeons in 5.4

[Seefer]

Was you asleep the whole time cata came out because wow went back to the TBC model for 90% of cata "besides the LFD system" and they lost 3 million subs.

TBC is over its done its gone forever bye bye. get over it and stop trying to turn wow into something it use to be.

You and blizzard both need to get this in your head. WOW has changed it can't go back to what it was without losing 90% of its pop if not more.

Don't like that wow isn't TBC anymore then by all means fucken leave cause I am really tired of blizzard lissing to the people who want things to be like TBC and ruining a game I enjoyed for many years.


Rift is as close as to a TBC model has gotten since wow-TBC and you see how high its pop got....

You want a TBC style go play rift or some other MMO and leave wow.

Why don't you people who want everything handed to you go play Hello Kitty or Console Games and use your cheat codes.

[Jtbrig7390]

Why don't you people who want everything handed to you go play Hello Kitty or Console Games and use your cheat codes.

Didn't know skyrim or KOA or many other games on consoles still used cheat code's....as a matter of fact not many do anymore.

Mainly GTA dose I guess.

But I must say that is a perfect reply from someone living in the past. If you want TBC back so bad go to a private server that is TBC only.

Feel free to reply with another immature comment and prove my point even more that people like you just need to leave MMO's altogether.

Also don't reply anymore unless you can prove you played in TBC.

[Deleted]

Sorry I could really care less what Mike Morhaime thinks. He say whatever he wish's but that dose not make his words true or right.

If they think subs dropped due to content getting finished so fast then blizzard has a lot more problems then they relise.

So let me ask you this if the cause of subs dropping in cata was because content was getting consumed fast.

Why are the subs still dropping now in MOP......

The numbers show content isn't getting consumed fast now hell barely any guilds finished T14 before ToT came out.

Nicely ignored first part of my post....so Wrath wasn't so good, was it? (subscription wise)

Maybe because this is another expansion with different problems? And if you don't care what CEO of Blizzard says, why should we care what you have to say. I am sure you have better information why Cataclysm subs dropped.

[Jtbrig7390]

Nicely ignored first part of my post....so Wrath wasn't so good, was it? (subscription wise)

Maybe because this is another expansion with different problems?

No wrath was and still is good subscription wise because wrath will still hold the highs sub count in wow history.

Right this is another expansion with different problems....there is also problems that have carry'ed over since cata and blizzard refuse's to fix them.

[Seefer]

Didn't know skyrim or KOA or many other games on consoles still used cheat code's....as a matter of fact not many do anymore.

Mainly GTA dose I guess.

But I must say that is a perfect reply from someone living in the past. If you want TBC back so bad go to a private server that is TBC only.

Feel free to reply with another immature comment and prove my point even more that people like you just need to leave MMO's altogether.

Also don't reply anymore unless you can prove you played in TBC.

Started raiding in BC actually, have the Sgt title on my hunter and here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ek/achievement stop doubting people played when they say they did, it's stupid, I have been playing this game with up to 4 accounts since half way through Vanilla. As for "People like me need to leave MMOs" no people like YOU who want to make it NOT an MMORPG need to leave.

[Deleted]

No wrath was and still is good subscription wise because wrath will still hold the highs sub count in wow history.

Right this is another expansion with different problems....there is also problems that have carry'ed over since cata and blizzard refuse's to fix them.

Hehe. Because it holds the highs sub count in wow history it wasn't highest success. People started leaving in that expansion. That should have turned on the red light.
And what problems are those who carry'ed over since Cata? Dungeons are too hard - the most popular reason? Staying in cities all the time?
Nothing to do outside raiding?
You know, other games are also taking away a chunk of WoW players. Game is not getting any younger. I don't think you could persuade CoD hero to fire up WoW and see graphics like that. Many more reasons are much more reasonable then - we don't have new dungeons - that's why WoW is loosing subs. I can't raid day later I dinged 90 so another million goes away. Ye, right...

[Jtbrig7390]

Hehe. Because it holds the highs sub count in wow history it wasn't highest success. People started leaving in that expansion. That should have turned on the red light.

the blizzard reports show that people where leaving after cata's release but I guess your word is over theres right.

"Blizzards most recent stupid ass choice"

Oondasta and Nalak Hotfixes (Show MVP Posts)Source
Rygarius
Community Manager
#1 - 2013/03/12 01:06:00 AM
We’re in the process of implementing a hotfix that will remove players’ eligibility to receive loot from Oondasta and Nalak, The Storm Lord if they’re not on their home realm.

We think it’s great that encounters like Oondasta have been able to bring back some of the excitement of massive spontaneous outdoor raids. However, with cross-realm groups giving the ability to play with friends on each other’s realms, the amount of people concentrating on a single realm to try to zerg these bosses down can unfortunately cause a number of stability issues, impacting the availability of the game for everyone.

While Nalak isn’t available yet, we want to preemptively address this so that the first realm to unlock it doesn’t then become the single focus for the rest of the region.

Here’s the hotfix note that’ll be added to the blog shortly:

Players visiting a different realm are no longer eligible to receive loot from Oondasta or Nalak, The Storm Lord.

Blizzard force's CRZ on people and now tells them u can't loot world boss's unless its on ur home server.....

really got to love blizzard and the stupid shit they keep pulling.
link to post: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...alak-hotfixes/

see I don't even have to point out the stupid shit blizzard keeps doing they are doing it for me so I'm done.

[Deleted]

the blizzard reports show that people where leaving after cata's release but I guess your word is over theres right.

Now go read my post once again. Follow links. After Cata's release China was playing WOTLK. That's almost half the playerbase. Where is your proof? Show me that Blizzard report.

Blizzard forced CRZ to Pandaria? News to me. And if gameplay is not enjoyable because of stability issues then why it's stupid? There is much greater concentration of players on those two islands then in leveling zones. Therefore, if CRZ needs to be disabled so be it. It was intended to make older zones alive again. NEW ISLANDS don't need that tech. Maybe one day you will understand that.

[Deleted]

Maybe because this is another expansion with different problems? And if you don't care what CEO of Blizzard says, why should we care what you have to say. I am sure you have better information why Cataclysm subs dropped.

Your guru Morhaime has: "Well I think that with Cataclysm, we did make the endgame a little bit too difficult, and so in some of the recent patching we've been easing up on the difficulty."

[MasterHamster]

Sorry I could really care less what Mike Morhaime thinks. He say whatever he wish's but that dose not make his words true or right.
If they think subs dropped due to content getting finished so fast then blizzard has a lot more problems then they relise.

Yeah, why should one listen to him, when we can listen to you and Leonard.
We already know we had a rapid drop because content were consumed too quickly. A player in a RPG without goals, and thus no reward, won't play. Accept it already.

So let me ask you this if the cause of subs dropping in cata was because content was getting consumed fast.
Why are the subs still dropping now in MOP......
The numbers show content isn't getting consumed fast now hell barely any guilds finished T14 before ToT came out.

Two reasons, that anyone should be able to figure out.
MoP has a much smaller pool of "new" players to attract than it's predecessors due to age. WotLK was the plateau, then the decline overtook the gains.
MoP made many who unsubscribed, for whatever reason, come back and check it out. But they most likely left again. Hopefully along with many who got pissed when they no longer could cap a week in 3 hours.

Personally I haven't started on the 5.2 content yet. I'm building up my gear for the requirements on that new alt. Much more fun to think that as my gear gets better, I get closer to Throne of Thunder. I'm so twisted that I think it's more fun to progress toward new content than to log on and be spoonfed items far beyond anything I could get in 5.1 without raiding heroics.

I'll make an analogy, since we keep throwing around the word "toy".
A spoiled boy gets pretty much whatever he wants by pointing at it. Throws it in a corner 2 days later.
Another boy saves up his allowance, talking about the toy with his friends. Yes others already have it, but he'll get it.
And when he does, it's the best shit ever. He earned that toy. Paid for it, looked forward to it. He wasn't instantly given it.

That's the damn reason why progression is important to keep players interested. How you two can sit here and praise broken design in Cataclysm (you seem to ignore potential reasons to sub losses, so I'll bite) and yet use subs as an argument, even though Cataclysm started the decline, is beyond me. Now, I still think the decline was largely due to lack of new potential players, but when you try to combine "sub losses in Cata wasn't due to insta catch up!" and "MoP is losing subs, must be bad design!" it boggles my mind.

Sadly we can only speculate. Fact remains that 4.3 saw the biggest drop in WoWs history. Maybe because the only way for anyone with more than 3 hours of playtime per week could feel like he was progressing was to make several alts to level, do HoTs, get some LFR trinkets and weapon from Madness, then reroll. Nooo, that can't be it! They got to see content quickly! Yeah, that's the goddamn problem. Quick entry, quick exit.

You might feel 5.0 and 5.1 was unrewarding, I didn't. Apparently 95% of the playerbase wasn't under that impression even 3 months after release, plenty of time to realize that this wasn't spoonfeeding 4.3 any longer. I still expect sub losses next quarter. Because the game has to die sooner or later, and reality now is that WoW is like a population that no longer can procreate. There are no children to replace the dying.

What you're essentially saying is that players are leaving the game because Blizzard isn't in practice removing older content in favour of the new.
Sooner or later you'll realize how goddamn backwards that is.

Your sig.
Why do you play an MMO?

[Deleted]

Your guru Morhaime has: "Well I think that with Cataclysm, we did make the endgame a little bit too difficult, and so in some of the recent patching we've been easing up on the difficulty."

First of all, he is not my guru. And don't try to insult me in that way, I did not insult anyone in this thread.

Oh, now people "could really care what Mike Morhaime thinks"? Great.

[Deleted]

Ofc, all of you are forgetting that half of the playerbase played TBC until 31/08/2010, 1 month after WOTLK was launched in China subs went up to 12 million.
11.5 million players were playing at release of WOTLK.
I don't think you can treat WRATH model like a second coming of Christ because in reality it got 500k players to game when Vanilla and TBC models got more then 11 million.

So when did WoW started declining? When half of the player base was in WOTLK and half in Cataclysm. Both worst expansion then TBC or classic WoW if you count subs.

TBC Fanboy revisionism, lovely. Your numbers are plain wrong and taken out of context. First of by your logic Vanilla would've been the best model since it got the most users into the game. That however is completly forgetting that before there Vanilla there wasn't any game and such the growth during the period doesn't really matter.
Also the game population peaked at around 13 millions during Wotlk and stayed stable for quite some time. It started to dwindle when ICC lasted for over than one your and people were very, very, very tired of that.

In Cataclysm they tried to go back to the BC model, it failed horribly. The dungeons were fun for about 2-3 days with premade groups and became horrible after a short time to run with randoms. The whole game was simply "meh" at best and it showed when the game started hemotrhaging players.

In Pandaria they came to the conclusion that all they need to do is giving people something to do and instead of introducing actual fun content they introduced a wide array of extremly annoying dailys and gating that are copy and pasted right from the Molten Front. The Molten Front part of the patch perceived as the worst part of Cataclysm by many, great idea there.
The problem here is that even after a hell of a lot of fixes and nerfs the game is still mostly build around time sink now and not fun, add an annoying RNG factor to it and you have Mists of Pandaria. People say LFR fills the same role a dungeon does as a catch up mechanism. This is plain wrong and an outright lie. Dungeons could be run over and over again to allow twinks to gear up quickly, LFR can only be run once a week.

This started to become a problem during the first patch already, with many people lacking the gear required to progress and thus guilds desperately searching for replacements. It will become an even bigger problem during Throne of Thunder and is most likely going to escalate during 5.4+ at the current pace.

One of the biggest mistakes I think was putting 10 and 25 man raids on the same lockout. They pretty much instantly killed most pug raids, then during Cataclysm and Pandaria they further demotivated people from pugging and now set out to kill alts. These things are hurting the game, they are hurting them badly and they don't even notice. Because they don't listen untill it is way too late. Just like they didn't listen in the past.
And please don't tell me about people trying to "design" the game or how it is "Blizzards" game, we're aware of that. We're merely pointing out problems and giving advice when we see something going horribly wrong and the fact that we've been right over and over again over the last few years is one point you guys like to ignore.

[JhanZ]

Hold on. If Blizzard wants a TBC model then why is it gating all of the content? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think TBC had any gating at all. It naturally progressed from 10 -> 25 -> Harder 25 -> Harder 25 -> Hardest 25

That... isn't like the current at all?

[ringpriest]

Was you asleep the whole time cata came out because wow went back to the TBC model for 90% of cata "besides the LFD system" and they lost 3 million subs.

For like the dozenth time, Cata was not the BC model. Cata had, at start (for what, a whole month?), heroics that were unpopular because they were both a massive change in trash encounter design from the heroics everyone had been running for over a year, AND which were too long, repetitive, and boring. (You can also argue that they had other problems, but those are the two that seem to stand out for almost everyone.) Cata heroics (and Cata 5-mans in general) were a far cry from BC 5mans.

And even if Cata and BC Heroics were equivalent (which I firmly maintain they were not), there was basically nothing else in common between the two expansions.

Where BC had near total freedom in questing, Cata put players on a questing railroad
Where BC had tiered raiding, Cata did a gear reset every raid tier
Where BC had one of the most challenging expansion endgames, Cata had the pathetically laughable Dragon Soul
Where BC introduced a single difficult instance during endgame, Cata had three loot-pinata instances for endgame
Where BC had new design elements everywhere, Cata had tons of retreads up to and including their final instance design
Where BC had attunements and keys, Cata had LFR
Where BC had Halaa (and other world pvp), Cata had Total Bored (or whatever "Musical Chairs the BG" was actually called)
Where BC had (not counting Kara ) a single coherent other world, Cata had zones randomly scattered around Azeroth
Where BC let you slowly work to craft near BiS weapons gear, Cata's professions were a boring retread left to rot

There's probably more, but I think that's enough.

Edited to add: While I have not played it very much, if anything MoP seems to be far closer to the BC model than Cata was.

[MasterHamster]

Hold on. If Blizzard wants a TBC model then why is it gating all of the content? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think TBC had any gating at all. It naturally progressed from 10 -> 25 -> Harder 25 -> Harder 25 -> Hardest 25

That... isn't like the current at all?

BC gated almost everything in some way
Attunements, no catch-up at all until like 3.4, Sunwell gates, still some resistance reqs for tanks...

MoP combines raiding elements from all expansions.

More linear progression from BC
Valor system from LK
And from both LK/Cata: Speeding up how fast you clear older content over time.

But unlike Cataclysm, MoP isn't going to instantly make older content completely forgettable as soon as a new tier is out.

[Deleted]

TBC Fanboy revisionism, lovely. Your numbers are plain wrong and taken out of context. First of by your logic Vanilla would've been the best model since it got the most users into the game. That however is completly forgetting that before there Vanilla there wasn't any game and such the growth during the period doesn't really matter.
Also the game population peaked at around 13 millions during Wotlk and stayed stable for quite some time. It started to dwindle when ICC lasted for over than one your and people were very, very, very tired of that.

In Cataclysm they tried to go back to the BC model, it failed horribly. The dungeons were fun for about 2-3 days with premade groups and became horrible after a short time to run with randoms. The whole game was simply "meh" at best and it showed when the game started hemotrhaging players.

In Pandaria they came to the conclusion that all they need to do is giving people something to do and instead of introducing actual fun content they introduced a wide array of extremly annoying dailys and gating that are copy and pasted right from the Molten Front. The Molten Front part of the patch perceived as the worst part of Cataclysm by many, great idea there.
The problem here is that even after a hell of a lot of fixes and nerfs the game is still mostly build around time sink now and not fun, add an annoying RNG factor to it and you have Mists of Pandaria. People say LFR fills the same role a dungeon does as a catch up mechanism. This is plain wrong and an outright lie. Dungeons could be run over and over again to allow twinks to gear up quickly, LFR can only be run once a week.

This started to become a problem during the first patch already, with many people lacking the gear required to progress and thus guilds desperately searching for replacements. It will become an even bigger problem during Throne of Thunder and is most likely going to escalate during 5.4+ at the current pace.

One of the biggest mistakes I think was putting 10 and 25 man raids on the same lockout. They pretty much instantly killed most pug raids, then during Cataclysm and Pandaria they further demotivated people from pugging and now set out to kill alts. These things are hurting the game, they are hurting them badly and they don't even notice. Because they don't listen untill it is way too late. Just like they didn't listen in the past.
And please don't tell me about people trying to "design" the game or how it is "Blizzards" game, we're aware of that. We're merely pointing out problems and giving advice when we see something going horribly wrong and the fact that we've been right over and over again over the last few years is one point you guys like to ignore.

Oh, how nice. Another insult - now I have guru and I am a fanboy, lovely.

WoW didn't invent MMO, there were plenty of MMO's before WoW. And yes, Vanilla was best because it redefined genre as a whole. Original creators came from different MMO's and they thought they created something new and better. And they did. Growth period during this period INDEED MATTERS. Because, if game wasn't any good, it would be destined to fail and we wouldn't play today. Saying it doesn't matter is just plain ignorance.

Game never had 13 million players. Link or be silent. Here's mine - 12 million. It started to dwindle in Wrath and Cata, depends which subs you looking at - western or eastern.

BC model is something different. Linear progression. BC model doesn't stand for "Wow, dungeons are hard". Explain to me how today's dungeons are more fun?

I agree on dailies, not their best work. They were never fun, in any expansion. Now and then they strike something good like operation shieldwall (if you like lore) or if there is fun achievement tied to them.

Game was always built around time sinks - as all other MMO's are. RNG factor is annoying to you, how would you give out loot to people?
Have you been in LFR recently? I got 4 pieces of gear in MSV in 1 run without any coins. That's sounds good to me.

If guilds wanted to replace you and not help you gear - you are in wrong guild.
Pug raids were killed by LFR. Because - LFR is PuG in it's essence.

Who are YOU exactly? And where were YOU right all this years?

[zimzum2523]

One of the biggest mistakes I think was putting 10 and 25 man raids on the same lockout. They pretty much instantly killed most pug raids, then during Cataclysm and Pandaria they further demotivated people from pugging and now set out to kill alts. These things are hurting the game, they are hurting them badly and they don't even notice. Because they don't listen untill it is way too late. Just like they didn't listen in the past.
And please don't tell me about people trying to "design" the game or how it is "Blizzards" game, we're aware of that. We're merely pointing out problems and giving advice when we see something going horribly wrong and the fact that we've been right over and over again over the last few years is one point you guys like to ignore.

I agree with this. In my opinion pug raids were a lot of fun. I would raid 25 with my guild and pug 10 mans. On my server during Wrath at almost any time of the day I could log on and hop into a pug or start one up. Now on the same server to get in a pug you have to be on between 6-7 st and over gear the content by a lot and most of the times the group will disband after a few wipes.

[MasterHamster]

Always easy to be Captain Hindsight.

"Locking 10 and 25 was a mistake"
So the reasoning that giving 25m guilds a massive lead over 10ms (could split into 2-3 10ms, improved and more loot) doesn't matter anymore. Only how they affected pugs.
"They never listen", if they didn't we'd still be grinding boars to craft some useless shit that was part in making some other useless shit that gave you +5 stats to kill some overtuned broken boss with 1 mechanic in total.

Always easy to be negative. Never positive. Happy gaming all!

[Deleted]

I just want to add that puging 10 man is less enjoyable then going with guildies/friends. And you still can PuG 10 mans....

[Misuteri]

I avoid 5 mans like the plauge in MOP. If I don't need to round out valor points, forget it, they're not fun. I've taken dungeon deserter on Stormstout Brewery more times than I can count because I have never hated a 5 man more that wasn't the Nexus.

The End Time ones at the end of Cata were so face roll they might as well have mailed you free epics. They completely destroyed raiding that expansion with 3 dungeons. It's one thing to catch players up but to do it inside 5 hours is absurd.

Face it 5 mans are a relic at this point for WoW.