Throne of Thunder - World First Heroic Thread!

[Deleted]

In 10 man raiders get targeted by abilities more often - speeding up the 'learning' curve
In 25 man raiders might not get targeted as often - delaying their 'learning' curve
Raiding is all about learning from your mistakes, and frankly more mistakes happen in 25 man because people aren't aware of what they have to do usually the first time. Theory =/= Practice, it's like driving a car.

Out of curiosity, any examples? Only mechanic in MoP that I can come up with is Reshape Life.

[Senen]

those people carrying need to do the same thing as in 10man, all i've been speaking about is the skill per player aka average skill required.

What is interesting is the fact that 10-man requires more skill per player but is not necessarily more difficult. 10-man raiding enhances individuals while 25-man raiding is more about team effort.
They are two different experiences.

[Deleted]

What is interesting is the fact that 10-man requires more skill per player but is not necessarily more difficult. 10-man raiding enhances individuals while 25-man raiding is more about team effort.
They are two different experiences.

The fact that this is what people think is true is the exact reason why everybody sees the illusion of 25 mans having tighter enrages, Because as you just pointed out you are most likely carrying people in your 25 mans meanwhile in a 10 man thats pretty much impossible on the encounters early on, I mean even a guild like method carries some bad DPSers compared to others and until any 25 man guild actually gets a perfect group like paragon was close to in 25 man and are pretty much at the point of in 10 man we will never fully see whether 25 man or 10 mans have harder requirements atleast numberwise. Also dont even try bringing up that 25 mans will need higher numbers, because a dpser in a 25 man should do more than one in 10 man due to stormlashes, banners and always having all debuffs on the boss, and the reason why blizzard goes with the 3:1 healthratio is because in general a 25 man goes with 18 dps and 5 healers compared to 6 dps and 2 healers in 10 man so 18:6 = 3:1. If you want to look mechanicwise, look at council heroic for example where frostbite deals same dmg in 10 and 25 and only targets 1 player in either 10 or 25 just do the math and tell me its fair, and if you havent tried the encounter you dont know how much of an issue this shit is in 10 man, its the nr 1 wipe ability basically. Pre-nerf this encounter was even worse with the shadowed soul giving the same dmg taken numbers in 10 and 25 and still they got the same amount of debuffs so the 10 mans were going to have 2,5 times more damage taken in the end. Yay for that last khazrajin phase where the raid kills itself due to that .

You can also look at the insane healing Req on megeara HC together with having a tight dps req in 10 man, if you wanted to kill it while being undergeared you had to have 2 disc priests and some rly good add dpsers or you wont make each head before the 4 breaths or you will just die to rampage due to lack of healing CDs. Fun fight wiping to your setup right? I guess that must happen a lot in a 25 man that is stacked with raid CDs however you do it .

I can go on all day about 10 mans being fucked over compared to 25 this tier and if you tell me i dont have enough exp, well my guild is 7/13 H as of now and we have a new recruit from a 25 H guild and he basically confirms my thoughts so i dont really know what kind of proof you are looking for.

[Deleted]

I think they said they(Moonz) raided from like 16:00 to midnight or something approaching? I don't think many 25mans are able to raid more than that outside of the first week.

Maybe, just maybe, moonz has less average skill in the grp than the top 3 guilds. They're obviously not pushing all out of world firsts so there's other factors than just the hours.

[DakonBlackblade]

Do you think Blood Legion are happy with their world 3rd then?

Im sure theyre happy, Im also sure theyd be happier if they were first and I find it stupid that ppl form world 7 billion guilds come here and start saying how much Method or BL suck cause they didnt beat Paragon when in fact theyre pretty darn incredible for beeing 2nd and 3rd respectively and/or 1st and 2nd 25 man.

Its like watching the olympics dude gets a bronze and everyone bashes him, do you ppl have nay idea how insanely dificult it is to eb the third best on the planet on something ?

[Senen]

The fact that this is what people think is true is the exact reason why everybody sees the illusion of 25 mans having tighter enrages, Because as you just pointed out you are most likely carrying people in your 25 mans meanwhile in a 10 man thats pretty much impossible on the encounters early on, I mean even a guild like method carries some bad DPSers compared to others and until any 25 man guild actually gets a perfect group like paragon was close to in 25 man and are pretty much at the point of in 10 man we will never fully see whether 25 man or 10 mans have harder requirements atleast numberwise. Also dont even try bringing up that 25 mans will need higher numbers, because a dpser in a 25 man should do more than one in 10 man due to stormlashes, banners and always having all debuffs on the boss, and the reason why blizzard goes with the 3:1 healthratio is because in general a 25 man goes with 18 dps and 5 healers compared to 6 dps and 2 healers in 10 man so 18:6 = 3:1. If you want to look mechanicwise, look at council heroic for example where frostbite deals same dmg in 10 and 25 and only targets 1 player in either 10 or 25 just do the math and tell me its fair, and if you havent tried the encounter you dont know how much of an issue this shit is in 10 man, its the nr 1 wipe ability basically. Pre-nerf this encounter was even worse with the shadowed soul giving the same dmg taken numbers in 10 and 25 and still they got the same amount of debuffs so the 10 mans were going to have 2,5 times more damage taken in the end. Yay for that last khazrajin phase where the raid kills itself due to that .

You can also look at the insane healing Req on megeara HC together with having a tight dps req in 10 man, if you wanted to kill it while being undergeared you had to have 2 disc priests and some rly good add dpsers or you wont make each head before the 4 breaths or you will just die to rampage due to lack of healing CDs. Fun fight wiping to your setup right? I guess that must happen a lot in a 25 man that is stacked with raid CDs however you do it .

I can go on all day about 10 mans being fucked over compared to 25 this tier and if you tell me i dont have enough exp, well my guild is 7/13 H as of now and we have a new recruit from a 25 H guild and he basically confirms my thoughts so i dont really know what kind of proof you are looking for.

My point was that it's true that 10-man enhance personal responsabilities. It does not imply that 10-man is harder.
I don't care about the "10/25 man is harder", experience tends to show that they are overall balanced.
But it's definitely a different experience.

Without even thinking mechanism-wise, it's at least obvious that dps-wise and hps-wise each individual has more responsability in 10-man than in 25-man. A healer in 10-man deals half the raid hps, in 25-man it's the fifth of the raid hps. Without going to extreme and talking about carrying people, the variation of output from a single player will have more impact in 10-man than in 25-man.

[Bloodletters]

This thread has been quite interesting and many people seem to use the phrase: "But 10 and 25 are totally different so they should have their own World Firsts".

Okay, I agree that 10 and 25 really are different. But people forget one thing. Blizzard has stated that they are tuned equally hard haven't they.

Many people here also use examples from sports so I will too.

So if Olympic Committee would say that: "Okay, 100m and 110 m hurdles is the same (like Blizzard has stated on 10 vs 25 that they are tuned equally)" but the viewers disagree and say they are not the same. Should medals be given by the opinion of the viewers or by the opinion of the Olympic Committee?

I thought so too.

They have said that they attempted to make them equal, and they also said it was a failure as the two are too different. They also said that 25 man is undoubtedly harder, logistically. So your analogy fails.

[Deleted]

and the reason why blizzard goes with the 3:1 healthratio is because in general a 25 man goes with 18 dps and 5 healers compared to 6 dps and 2 healers in 10 man so 18:6 = 3:1

You are excluding tanks' and and disc priests DPS. Let's say a tank does 70% of a true dd's dps and a disc priest smiting 30%, given 1 disc in each raid size. So we have 18+2*.7+.3 : 6+2*.7+.3 = 19.7:7.7 = 2.55:1. Oh hai.

Conclusion: generalities are bad.

[lappee]

What is interesting is the fact that 10-man requires more skill per player but is not necessarily more difficult. 10-man raiding enhances individuals while 25-man raiding is more about team effort.
They are two different experiences.

I never said 10man would be harder, just told my opinion that I prefer 10man in progress raids due to requiring more individual skill

[egrus]

cant you guys make a different post to discuss this stupid 10v25 debate. when i click in here i want to read about world first. not to see some stupid discussion that is off topic.

[Deleted]

I never said 10man would be harder, just told my opinion that I prefer 10man in progress raids due to requiring more individual skill

Do all the other core raiders in Paragon agree with you on this? Or some of them prefer 25m? I'm not asking if you are planning to go back to 25m, I just would like to know more about hardcore raiders' opinion on this, specially from Paragon considering you have several WF on both.
Just curious, feel free to not answer.

[Monolith of Mazes]

cant you guys make a different post to discuss this stupid 10v25 debate. when i click in here i want to read about world first. not to see some stupid discussion that is off topic.

I agree, this is getting ridiculous. let's change the topic. bets for the next lei Shen kill? Exsorsus seems to have about a day head start on moonz for h-lei shen attempts as well as a higher ilvl. i'm thinking it will be exsorsus 4, moonz 5. i'm -hoping- that it will be moonz 4, though.

Does anyone have any news on ra-den progress or on anyone elses lei shen progress/

[Alekslari]

Just to clear this up, that's not real Method's Pacteh that was posting in the thread. Don't get yourself fooled.

[MerinPally]

So much penis jousting between someone who has the right to, and someone who has merely a dandelion against the mighty oak of that who earnt it.

[Deleted]

I'm hoping Exorsus will be the next kill since that will force Method to release their video because of what happen on Dark Animus before(Method get's WF, but Exorsus kills it and releases a video straight away before Method) :P

[Deleted]

I agree, this is getting ridiculous. let's change the topic. bets for the next lei Shen kill? Exsorsus seems to have about a day head start on moonz for h-lei shen attempts as well as a higher ilvl. i'm thinking it will be exsorsus 4, moonz 5. i'm -hoping- that it will be moonz 4, though.

Paragon did it with 344 wipes and as I understood, only one person (Lappe? ) alive at the end, so I'm not really expecting any other 10-man kills in the next 2 weeks at least.

The kill order of the hardest bosses seems to be quite predictable actually. Previous "hard boss is hard" dark animus had the kills from 4th place onwards by Exorsus, Envy and Exodus, so those ones ought to be next. In any case, the next one starts with an E

[ghostprotocol]

I agree, this is getting ridiculous. let's change the topic. bets for the next lei Shen kill? Exsorsus seems to have about a day head start on moonz for h-lei shen attempts as well as a higher ilvl. i'm thinking it will be exsorsus 4, moonz 5. i'm -hoping- that it will be moonz 4, though.

Does anyone have any news on ra-den progress or on anyone elses lei shen progress/

As long as there is no video, the order is pretty much set. I don't see any guild jumping significantly ahead, I fully expect the 4th guild to get 11/12 to get the next kill..

[Sprucelee]

Considering that no guilds have even gotten a realm first achievement for this teir, much less a world first clear, I find it a bit funny that it feels like the race is over in this thread. Guy above me even calls it 11/12.

As of this week, Paragon and Method both have 90 attempts on Ra-Den, and BL 60? That 2 day or week advantage matters much less, or not at all, with limited attempts.

[Deleted]

The reason that the race feels over is that Blizzard said themself that Ra-den is just a bonus boss, Lei Shen was the final boss.

If you wish to agree with that or not is up to you I guess, but that's what Blizzard said.

[Deleted]

Ra-den is much easier mechanically, also less immersing and not living up to what a true final end-of-tier boss should be, as I have heard. That is all in contrast to Lei Shen.

It's just the limited attempt system that is holding the kills back.