should 10 man raids have 1 extra piece of loot?

[Rasar]

Because normal modes are a big deal, amirite? You're silly if you think that.

Do you think that changes in heroics? No it sure doesn't. 25's will always be easier based solely on room for error. The only "hard" part of 25man raiding is finding 25 skilled individuals on any given night.

Lets look back at last tier: Heroic Lei Shi

10man strat involves 2 tanks, 2 healers 6dps
2 Tanks need to constantly taunt off each other WHILE they juggle the taunting of the adds as well. Now I'm not saying its impossible or really all that hard, but at the end of the day you need to be far more organized then the 25man strat.

25man strat involves 2 or 3 tanks, w/e healers & dps.
2 Tanks on the boss full time, and either a 3rd tank handling the pickup of the adds or a DPS warrior or feral druid gather up the adds and kiting in a circle taking next to 0 damage.

I'm sorry but the game has been like this since the start of BWD & BoT. 10mans are definitely more of a challenge and something I welcome as a 10man raider. I'm not posting here to cry or complain, I'm content with the skill level of 10man and only posted because of the various pudding heads claiming 25man is "way harder" then 10man.

As for an extra loot, sure it would be welcomed, especially due to the RNG factor on loot. Not seeing 1 dagger, 1 bow, 1 trinket from Lei Shen the entire tier (20-40) kills is pretty sad. Don't even get me started on the thunderforged difference (Exodus receiving 5 thunderforged trinkets off of their Lei Shen kill this week for instance, 5 out of a possible 6 loots) Gotta love RNG.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 02:00 PM ----------

Is this guy serious? I don't think we ran the same instance.

How's raiding 30+ hours and 6 days a week for a normal mode Lei Shen kill treating you? I'm not sure you should be commenting at all.

[Deleted]

One of the reasons 25 man have more loot and more Thunderforge loot is because they want ppl to still raid 25 man. If you look at the amount of 25 man guilds it has got down a lot lately and the amount of 10 man are increasing all the time. So I think the difference is because they want to give them "something" to make them stay 25 man.

[Fenixdown]

Do you think that changes in heroics? No it sure doesn't. 25's will always be easier based solely on room for error. The only "hard" part of 25man raiding is finding 25 skilled individuals on any given night.

Lets look back at last tier: Heroic Lei Shi

10man strat involves 2 tanks, 2 healers 6dps
2 Tanks need to constantly taunt off each other WHILE they juggle the taunting of the adds as well. Now I'm not saying its impossible or really all that hard, but at the end of the day you need to be far more organized then the 25man strat.

25man strat involves 2 or 3 tanks, w/e healers & dps.
2 Tanks on the boss full time, and either a 3rd tank handling the pickup of the adds or a DPS warrior or feral druid gather up the adds and kiting in a circle taking next to 0 damage.

I'm sorry but the game has been like this since the start of BWD & BoT. 10mans are definitely more of a challenge and something I welcome as a 10man raider. I'm not posting here to cry or complain, I'm content with the skill level of 10man and only posted because of the various pudding heads claiming 25man is "way harder" then 10man.

As for an extra loot, sure it would be welcomed, especially due to the RNG factor on loot. Not seeing 1 dagger, 1 bow, 1 trinket from Lei Shen the entire tier (20-40) kills is pretty sad. Don't even get me started on the thunderforged difference (Exodus receiving 5 thunderforged trinkets off of their Lei Shen kill this week for instance, 5 out of a possible 6 loots) Gotta love RNG.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 02:00 PM ----------



How's raiding 30+ hours and 6 days a week for a normal mode Lei Shen kill treating you? I'm not sure you should be commenting at all.

Now let's cover the nine bosses in the last tier of content that required spacing and tell me those weren't faceroll on 10 heroic. Spirit Kings? Pft. Blade Lord? Pft. Stone Guard? LOLpft. Feng? Pft. Wind Lord? Pft. I'd argue Garalon being easier on 10 as well, even though it's a DPS check encounter (which are usually tougher on 10-man). How about Tsulong? Pfffffffffft.

I see your one and raise you nine. Yep, 10's...totally much harder for heroic. Let's see how much "harder" they are after this week, shall we? Wanna make bets on the percentages of 10-man heroic kills and 25-man heroic kills? I bet ya 10's win out.

I've done 10's. I've done 25's. 10's are boring and easy. 25's require actual team cohesion and coordination. 10's requires nothing more than a couple of individual efforts. It's an overglorified dungeon. Literally, since in vanilla end game dungeons were 10-man "raids" (Scholo, Strat, LBRS, BRD...yeah those were hard, too, right?). Tell me how hard fights in Karazhan and ZA were compared to Gruul's/Mag or Black Temple.

Just stop while you're only that far behind. Less coordination, less recruitment, less preparation, less effort, less headache and guess what...less reward. Seems perfectly fitting to me.

[Eadoin]

The OP is right in that in a 25 man guild most loot doesn't go to waste (obviously there are exceptions, we only currently have 1 raiding hunter and no enh shamans so mail agi gear is largely useless. I think rather then extra loot the RNG should be made less punishing in 10s... At least in normals anyways, heroic raiders are used to bad RNG holding them back and part of the challenge/fun is overcoming those gear disparities.

Not sure how I would go about fixing it though, since if you restrict loot to spec off specs will miss out. Maybe bring back sunwell style of loot where off-tier could be traded in for similar armor class for normal mode drops.

[Ifeanychukwu]

As much as I'd like for there to be more chances of getting loot I think that the number of pieces of loot bosses drop in 10m is fine. This coming from a resto druid that's been stuck at 476 for months. I do LFR every week as well as raiding 10m but for some reason the RNG gods or whatever you'd like to call it absolutely HATE me. I could gear up from rep vendors I suppose but honestly, I'd rather piss glass than do some absurd number of dailies every day.

[pld]

Mathematically it makes sense for 10 man raids to have 2 drops per boss if 25 man raids are getting 5, but as a 10 man raider, I certainly wouldn't be against an extra drop.

Three drops on every boss might incentive 10m raiding even more, but what if each boss on 10m raids had a chance (say for example 30%) of dropping an extra piece of non-tier loot?

[Rasar]

Now let's cover the nine bosses in the last tier of content that required spacing and tell me those weren't faceroll on 10 heroic. Spirit Kings? Pft. Blade Lord? Pft. Stone Guard? LOLpft. Feng? Pft. Wind Lord? Pft. I'd argue Garalon being easier on 10 as well, even though it's a DPS check encounter (which are usually tougher on 10-man). How about Tsulong? Pfffffffffft.

I see your one and raise you nine. Yep, 10's...totally much harder for heroic. Let's see how much "harder" they are after this week, shall we? Wanna make bets on the percentages of 10-man heroic kills and 25-man heroic kills? I bet ya 10's win out.

I've done 10's. I've done 25's. 10's are boring and easy. 25's require actual team cohesion and coordination. 10's requires nothing more than a couple of individual efforts. It's an overglorified dungeon. Literally, since in vanilla end game dungeons were 10-man "raids" (Scholo, Strat, LBRS, BRD...yeah those were hard, too, right?). Tell me how hard fights in Karazhan and ZA were compared to Gruul's/Mag or Black Temple.

Just stop while you're only that far behind. Less coordination, less recruitment, less preparation, less effort, less headache and guess what...less reward. Seems perfectly fitting to me.

You're really trying to argue "spacing" as a reason 25mans are harder? You're list of bosses is embarrassing these fights weren't even considered "hard" your not adding any actual change to the mechanic based on a numbers perspective at all, Stone Guard? REALLY? Hey you have a beam, stand next to me, OK cool were good, oops you hit a trap oh well one of the 7 healers we've brought cant heal us up through anything. If these bosses were a challenge for you because you raid 25 you've got some internal guild issues. What about Tsulong was harder on 25? the fact that 25 people needed to use their brain and know when to reset the stacks? You can class stack so bad in 25mans you can trivialize most mechanics (ever wonder why the top guilds do this during progression?? mages in DS for example)

So no, your 10 mean nothing, last patch means nothing. I'm talking about THIS tier, normals as they stood on week 1. I remember watching a Midwinter stream on council totally ignore the mechanics around each boss, they didn't stack up for the frost debuff to lessen the damage, they assigned 2 of their 6 healers to watch that person, he ran out and did nothing but continue to dps. They zerg cleaved down each boss and moved on. This isn't possible to the same extent in 10man at all.

You are 4/16 this tier, you haven't even cleared MSV heroic last tier, 1/6 HoF heroic and 0/4 ToES? Before that a DS heroic kill when the instanced was nerfed into the ground.. why are you even talking to me? Who are you exactly? I can eat a bowl of alphabet soup and sh!t out a better argument then that. Please stop before you embarrass yourself.

Judging by your "sick" progression stated above I'm not even going to dive into this abortion of a paragraph regarding your "raiding experience" its not even worth my time. They've dulled this game down so much anything beyond TBC is basically a mute point anyway.

If I'm behind, you're lost in translation my friend.
25man coordination.. none needed just zerg boss, class stack or bring 8 healers (what enrage timers)
25man recruitment - valid, I don't even want to know the amount of mouth breathers in your guild, considering all you could muster up in week 1 is 4 boss kills.
25man preparation - mute point, we both know you base your strats off the guilds who actually run progression on PTR
25man effort - mute point, nothing is different, effort is on a player to player basis. I choose 10man because I cant trust 15 more people to wipe their own ass 9 out of 10 times.
25man headaches - absolutely, see point above. You can carry 5-10 kids in a 25man guild, not so much in a 10man.

Maybe you guys should dive back into the previous tier and see if you can muster up a few more "nerfed" boss kills to add to your already embarrassing personal resume.

And just to clairify, I dont think 10mans are "hard" my whole point is that 25's aren't "harder".
And since I could really careless at the end of the day, this is my final post. Grats Feenixdownsyndrome you made my work day at least "less" mundane. (see what I did there, I used the word less which seems to bring you from 6 to midnight in a matter of seconds)

[kosechi]

How's raiding 30+ hours and 6 days a week for a normal mode Lei Shen kill treating you? I'm not sure you should be commenting at all.

10 mans kill lei shi in maybe half the pulls as 25 mans.

[Dopefreshx]

10 mans kill lei shi in maybe half the pulls as 25 mans.

Lei Shi is probably a terrible example, easiest boss all tier.

[Royalite]

So no, your 10 mean nothing, last patch means nothing. I'm talking about THIS tier, normals as they stood on week 1. I remember watching a Midwinter stream on council totally ignore the mechanics around each boss, they didn't stack up for the frost debuff to lessen the damage, they assigned 2 of their 6 healers to watch that person, he ran out and did nothing but continue to dps. They zerg cleaved down each boss and moved on. This isn't possible to the same extent in 10man at all.

Please stop before you embarrass yourself.

Perfect to analyze heroic gear raiders performance on normals.

Interesting that extrapolates to the rest of 25m raiding guilds.

[facerollin]

No, otherwise 25's would need another 2/3 pieces.

[Jiigeri]

Now let's cover the nine bosses in the last tier of content that required spacing and tell me those weren't faceroll on 10 heroic. Spirit Kings? Pft. Blade Lord? Pft. Stone Guard? LOLpft. Feng? Pft. Wind Lord? Pft. I'd argue Garalon being easier on 10 as well, even though it's a DPS check encounter (which are usually tougher on 10-man). How about Tsulong? Pfffffffffft.

I see your one and raise you nine. Yep, 10's...totally much harder for heroic. Let's see how much "harder" they are after this week, shall we? Wanna make bets on the percentages of 10-man heroic kills and 25-man heroic kills? I bet ya 10's win out.

I've done 10's. I've done 25's. 10's are boring and easy. 25's require actual team cohesion and coordination. 10's requires nothing more than a couple of individual efforts. It's an overglorified dungeon. Literally, since in vanilla end game dungeons were 10-man "raids" (Scholo, Strat, LBRS, BRD...yeah those were hard, too, right?). Tell me how hard fights in Karazhan and ZA were compared to Gruul's/Mag or Black Temple.

Just stop while you're only that far behind. Less coordination, less recruitment, less preparation, less effort, less headache and guess what...less reward. Seems perfectly fitting to me.

These were significantly harder on 25man according to wowtrack kill% (a relative difficulty value of at least 0.25):

Heroic: Stone Guard 0.27
Heroic: Feng the Accursed 0.26
Heroic: Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 0.29
Heroic: The Spirit Kings 0.30
Heroic: Elegon 0.34
Heroic: Blade Lord Ta'yak 0.28

And these were harder on 10man (a relative difficulty value of at least 0.25):

Protectors of the Endless 0.33
Tsulong 0.30
Lei Shi 0.34
Sha of Fear 0.26
Heroic: Amber-Shaper Un'sok 0.26
Heroic: Grand Empress Shek'zeer 0.31
Heroic: Protectors of the Endless 0.46
Heroic: Tsulong 0.47
Heroic: Lei Shi 0.53
Heroic: Sha of Fear 0.58

Source & complete list of bosses with relative difficulty values: http://www.wowtrack.org/encounters

What this basically means is that MGV -> halfway of HoF was usually harder for 25 man guilds, but the rest of the content was harder for 10 man guilds. However, 10 man heroic terrace was harder by a huge margin. What comes to comparing Karazhan and Zul'Aman to black temple for example is just plain stupid, especially when 10 man had lower level loot so they basically were on completely different "tiers" anyway (more like an way to start raiding, not to focus on).

Maybe 1 more loot is a bad idea, but ~20-25% chance for an 3rd loot might not be that bad. 25m on average would still be gearing quicker, with less RNG not to mention increased droprate of thunderforged which is beyond ridiculous at the time of this post being written.

[SaltLakeAtrocity]

Honestly 10mans should at least have a 50% chance at a third piece of loot. Always having three pieces would cause gearing up too quickly, but the random chance would pace it better than it currently does.

[Deleted]

Maybe 1 more loot is a bad idea, but ~20-25% chance for an 3rd loot might not be that bad. 25m on average would still be gearing quicker, with less RNG not to mention increased droprate of thunderforged which is beyond ridiculous at the time of this post being written.

I like that idea a lot. Third guaranteed drop would be too much tbh, but ranom extra one would be great, and we deserve that tbh, since 25mans will soon DE all the normal gear and be decked in thunderforged, and that basicly means we have WOTLK system again. (well hidden by pretty Blizzard words of "small chance" and "rare")

[TheRabidDeer]

Gearing is part of the game. I cant imagine what you wouldve thought in the vanilla days.

[Deleted]

1 more piece of loot.
I can get really annoying to kill a boss you need loot from (or everyone needs loot from), and then it drops the same useless items 4 times in a row....
And then there is usally 1 token piece which +4 people need.
Just 1 more piece.

[xezar]

I say yes, or at the least for any boss dropping tier tokens, make them drop the normal 2 pieces of loot and a token instead of 1 token and loot.

[Lethora]

These were significantly harder on 25man according to wowtrack kill% (a relative difficulty value of at least 0.25):

...

What this basically means is that MGV -> halfway of HoF was usually harder for 25 man guilds, but the rest of the content was harder for 10 man guilds. However, 10 man heroic terrace was harder by a huge margin. What comes to comparing Karazhan and Zul'Aman to black temple for example is just plain stupid, especially when 10 man had lower level loot so they basically were on completely different "tiers" anyway (more like an way to start raiding, not to focus on).

Maybe 1 more loot is a bad idea, but ~20-25% chance for an 3rd loot might not be that bad. 25m on average would still be gearing quicker, with less RNG not to mention increased droprate of thunderforged which is beyond ridiculous at the time of this post being written.

You are reading the numbers wrong. There are just way more serious 25man guilds than there are 10man ones. This is why you have higher success percentage on first bosses and lower success percentage for later bosses for 10man.

[Hygeia]

I can agree with this. Tokens should be on a separate loot table from regular drops.

Agree to this, 10 man is getting gimped like this. There is more diversity from loot dropping in 25man which can be used than in 10 man

[TheRabidDeer]

If you give 1 extra piece of loot to 10 man, why would anybody do 25 man?