Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[Gondlem]

Yeah, I think it's a misrepresentation to paint people who don't want to recruit people into their guild based on LFR experience as being elitist. If I were in a normal mode guild and got an app from someone who had no normal mode experience but had done LFR, they'd need to do more to convince me of their competence than just saying "I cleared all the content on LFR". LFR has basically no mechanics you have to do correctly, so succeeding in LFR has no bearing on your ability to succeed in normal or heroic raiding. You could maybe use an LFR parse to show you know your dps rotation, that's about it.

[Glaziola]

LFR replaced raiding for me as I dont have time to dedicate to guild progression. I play when I have time as a fun activity not a chore.

[Lord Blackmore]

BUT it is something, show us your pool that says different? This poll does need to be taken in context, it is a poll on this site to poll these users who voted. Is it infallible? Of course not, but it's accurate for the users who visit the general forums daily.

Exactly right. The problem comes when this data is extrapolated to the much larger player base, of course.

[Deleted]

Yes the number of raiders is down significantly.
This is an easily verifiable fact. Click on each tier and see how the overall number of guilds has shrunk from previous tiers.

[Durandro]

You know, it just struck me. LFR needs to be more newbie friendly.

And no, I don't mean 'make it easier'. I mean having tutorials on the bosses during the fight. Even simple things like a pop-up message saying "avoid the fire pools!" or "stack up for healing!" to give people a clue how the fight actually functions. If people were being told how the fight works, they might not fail so much. And it needs to be very obvious, since people currently miss the prompts already in the game - big graphical flashes and warnings when you're standing in avoidable damage, for example.

Also there needs to be 'Raider Trial' missions where you're taught the bare basics of raiding. Do a tanking mission where you have to grab aggro on mobs and use cooldowns to survive for x amount of time. Do a healing mission where you need to heal up an AI party during a boss fight. Do DPS missions where you have to hit a certain amount of DPS while avoiding damage.

People clearly need to be eased into the concept of raiding more - LFR drops people in the deep end, and even though the mechanics are laughable compared to normal or heroic Raids they just don't have a clue what they are supposed to do!

Heck, with more tutorials they might actually be able to tune LFR to be slightly harder as well. Or even in future add in a 'heroic LFR' that is tuned to be as difficult as normal 25 mode and drops the same gear (though I imagine this would be frustrating for many people...). Means heroic Raiding is reinforced as the 'true' Raiding format.

I'd also probably drop LFR down to 10 man mode and have it require 1 Tank, 2 Healers and 7 DPS to ease up graphical lag and queue times. But hey, I'm not in charge.

[Xabris]

Read first few replies.... reused boss mechanics? I don't understand how simple minded you must be... there's the reason you only do LFR.

[Tomana]

Also there needs to be 'Raider Trial' missions where you're taught the bare basics of raiding. Do a tanking mission where you have to grab aggro on mobs and use cooldowns to survive for x amount of time. Do a healing mission where you need to heal up an AI party during a boss fight. Do DPS missions where you have to hit a certain amount of DPS while avoiding damage.

That's more or less the Proving Grounds Blizzard has in mind. It's apparently in development but is not yet out.

[Deleted]

The game doesn't teach you how to raid, and most raiders won't either because they are elitist asshats.

In the old days (tm) instances would sort of force you to learn your class a bit and raiders would have to grit their teeth and teach you because they only had one server population to recruit from. 40/25 man raids also would take along the less able just because a bit more dps or healing was better than none (this was back before one shot/raid wipe mechanics were everywhere which has effectively stopped the practice.)

The reason that there are fewer raiders is ironically enough that blizzard cater to raiders too much!

[God8010]

The game brings nothing new. Bosses with new skins we killed before. Game elements stolen from any other top preforming game. Clinging on to time wasting dead systems like daily quests. There is nothing to log in for. We can save months of our time and watch on youtube in 10 minutes.

Blizzard is too busy trying to steal everyone else's working platform. Pokemon, Farmville and now Magic the gathering. What's the point of playing WOW's version when we can see something new in another MMO or just play the successful games WOW tries to steal from?

MOP has been a scream from Blizzard saying "We ran out of ideas."

[Deleted]

The game brings nothing new. Bosses with new skins we killed before. Game elements stolen from any other top preforming game. Clinging on to time wasting dead systems like daily quests. There is nothing to log in for. We can save months of our time and watch on youtube in 10 minutes.

Blizzard is too busy trying to steal everyone else's working platform. Pokemon, Farmville and now Magic the gathering. What's the point of playing WOW's version when we can see something new in another MMO or just play the successful games WOW tries to steal from?

MOP has been a scream from Blizzard saying "We ran out of ideas."

Blizzard have rarely if ever come up with anything new.

What blizzard do do (and they do it well) is to take the best of other peoples stuff and polish it like an OCD shoe repairer until it outshines even the original they got the idea from. Everything in wow is both stolen from other games and done better than anyone else ever did it.

[Osmeric]

The larger problem over the very long run may be that the raiding population for normal/heroics will continue to shrink to the point where eventually it won't be worth it to develop those difficulty levels either. There's a rather casual assumption on the part of some that Blizzard will never do this but I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I noticed Ghostcrawler commented in a recent interview that participation in Challenge Modes for 5 mans was higher than Blizzard had predicted.

I found this very significant. I will not be surprised if difficult raid modes (heroic perhaps, or maybe both heroic and normal) in future expansions are replaced with Challenge-like modes: things that deliver only cosmetic rewards.

[Fagatronics]

Blizzard have rarely if ever come up with anything new.

What blizzard do do (and they do it well) is to take the best of other peoples stuff and polish it like an OCD shoe repairer until it outshines even the original they got the idea from. Everything in wow is both stolen from other games and done better than anyone else ever did it.

While I agree Blizz steals A LOT of ideas and polishes them quite nicely. I would disagree that what they steal is necessarily made better.

I can think of games (many in most cases except Pet Battles) that are better at: PvP, Leveling/Questing, Story, Professions, Exploration, Pet Battles, etc. While many of these aspects are still good, they are not better. But those are also somewhat sacrificed because of the MMO aspect of WoW.

What Blizz was exemplary at was creating group pve content ie Dungeons and Raids. I have not played a game that has created this experience any better. So the fact that they aren't creating more dungeons in MoP, creating more single player content, and playing with random ppl is more common than playing with friends, what is the games direction?

It's only in the end game pve/pvp where it's necessary to group with people you know, trust, and communicate with and actually feels like an MMO. Prior to that WoW just feels like a structred cornucopia of minigames where other people happen to be.

[Moistmuffins]

snip

I can definitely understand that there are many people who only do LFR and don't try to better themselves or anything and then complain when they are rejected. However, I'm not referring to those people as I don't believe they should be allowed into a guild raiding environment either (until they're willing to put in the effort). I'm more referring to the ones who haven't raided before, yet are still trying but might not know about certain aspects of the entirety of what raiding is. I have run into quite a few hunters in LFR (main is a hunter who only does LFR now) asking me questions about stuff because of how I perform in the raids. I enjoy helping them out because they are truly invested in bettering their characters, which is always nice to see. The thing is I don't judge whether they are in LFR for the first time or are into Heroics in MSV/HoF (and yes this has fucking happened it was weird as shit dude was 15 ilvls above me asking me for advice). That's all I'm trying to say is that there are people who only do LFR who are genuinely trying to improve, but are shunned because they aren't perfect with gemming, enchanting, etc. It's just a poor attitude.

And to your edit. I definitely understand this. It's a random sampling of a small portion of the LFR population, obviously you will have runs that are just god awful and wouldn't want any of them in your raid. I'm just saying there are some who do wish to improve even if they do suck at the moment. And I'm not saying heroic guild should be looking into these raiders or Normal guilds that full clear rather quickly. I'm talking about guilds like (well I don't want to name people so I'll just give a general idea) a 1/12 ToT normal guild that won't accept LFR raiders because they are so much better than said LFR-ers even though in the current raid hey only have 1 kill over said LFRers. It's just odd.

I will agree with your statement that LFR isn't very good at doing what it was intended for at the moment, but the only way to really make it so would reduce it's accessibility to quite a lot of people. (To me) It seems that the only way Blizzard could really implement a better stepping stone into raiding would to allow an LFR style for Normal difficulty raids. Maybe not immediately, but perhaps after a raid/patch of raids has been cleared by a certain amount of guilds to open it up for the more time constrained individuals. Or even open it in wings as they do with LFR now, but based on participation of raids guilds/LFRers. Obviously I understand there would be tremendous problems that could arise from this such as people complaining for nerfs to normal content now due to the new LFR normal version. But then again maybe it would only be opened up once the original raids did get nerfed so it wouldn't cause that whole rigmarole. I don't know it's a pretty rough idea, but could benefit the community in large.




PS for Cattlehunter: Thank you for calling me out on spewing hatred and bile while completely ignoring the fact the posters I was responding to have been nothing but rude and condescending to anyone with a differing opinion than they themselves hold. I have asked them in this thread and another time and time again why it matters to them if someone else enjoys LFR as their raiding experience. They have refused to answer and continued with attacks on me and those other players. They have a toxic attitude and have such been given replies that are deserved. I have continued to try and hold a decent discussion with a few people in this thread, but there are those who choose to demean anyone not holding their opinion which is absolutely TOXIC behavior as I have said before and is detrimental to the game. Notice how Slant gave a differing opinion to mine without being a) condescending b) toxic and c) rude and I was able to hold a discussion with him. It can be done but those whose choose not to don't deserve it in return.

Also to your question about what games have harder raiding than WoW's hardest raiding? I'll already said it in an earlier post while spewing my hatred and bile, but I will repeat just for you. EQ's normal raids put WoW's hardest raiding to shame. So yea, I could easily have the same attitude about the condescending people in this thread since they haven't experience that. See how that work? Cause it's pretty fucking stupid. (And note I'm not saying every Normal or Heroic raider is condescending just the couple people in this thread and others like them who choose to put others down for the content they do in a videogame).

[MoanaLisa]

I noticed Ghostcrawler commented in a recent interview that participation in Challenge Modes for 5 mans was higher than Blizzard had predicted.

I found this very significant. I will not be surprised if difficult raid modes (heroic perhaps, or maybe both heroic and normal) in future expansions are replaced with Challenge-like modes: things that deliver only cosmetic rewards.

Something that people rarely bring up is whether or not the game would be better off without raids altogether. I'm not sure I know how I really feel about it but there's certainly something to be said for the thought experiment of building many more dungeons/scenarios instead of raids. Taken as a whole so far raid bosses in MoP would make a healthy two dozen additional dungeons. Given the nine we started with and adding on challenge modes for those theoretical dungeons, you'd certainly have a different-looking game. I can't make up my mind whether or not it would be more popular although I'm sure that a lot of people would enjoy that.

Really, the principle problems in LFR at this point are the people who join up just to AFK afterwards. If I believed that forums represent anything in the real world I'd believe that most of those who do this view themselves as elite and really too good to participate but not too good to be handed the gear for doing little-to-nothing. It's a very odd thing in my view that people join up to not play. People who actually go about it and play are fine even if they're not up to par otherwise. So too, the gear situation is much quieter now. Occasionally the comments I see now read much like LFR in T13 which was frankly little more than a beta for the eventual "real LFR". They don't quite track with the reality which is that LFR as often as not is a relatively businesslike proposition much like dungeons.

Given everything I don't think it's much of a mystery where all the raiders have gone.

[Moistmuffins]

snip

To your point about the AFKers. That was something I wanted to point out in the other thread. It seems a trend on these forums for the "too good for LFR" people are the ones actually AFKing and causing the LFR runs to be so poor. Obviously that isn't always true as in every aspect of the game this website is a pretty bad way to get an accurate sample, but as you said if the forums truly represented the real world it's the raiders causing the LFR problems which would be funny.

[HardCoder]

Really, the principle problems in LFR at this point are the people who join up just to AFK afterwards.

The vibe in LFR these days is a lot better all around than it was in Cataclysm. Much less ranting in /raid, and because of the new loot system, there are never guild groups of putzes.

It's still not ideal, but as you say, it's a lot more "businesslike" than it was a year ago.

[Otimus]

Yeah, I think it's a misrepresentation to paint people who don't want to recruit people into their guild based on LFR experience as being elitist. If I were in a normal mode guild and got an app from someone who had no normal mode experience but had done LFR, they'd need to do more to convince me of their competence than just saying "I cleared all the content on LFR". LFR has basically no mechanics you have to do correctly, so succeeding in LFR has no bearing on your ability to succeed in normal or heroic raiding. You could maybe use an LFR parse to show you know your dps rotation, that's about it.

But, really, aren't you basically saying you have to raid before you're allowed to raid? I mean, you're beating around the bush, that's basically what I'm gathering from this. It's a big catch 22.

[judgementofantonidas]

To your point about the AFKers. That was something I wanted to point out in the other thread. It seems a trend on these forums for the "too good for LFR" people are the ones actually AFKing and causing the LFR runs to be so poor. Obviously that isn't always true as in every aspect of the game this website is a pretty bad way to get an accurate sample, but as you said if the forums truly represented the real world it's the raiders causing the LFR problems which would be funny.

Last week when I ran the first half of HOF LFR for some "quick" valor and ended up tanking garalon down from 20% with nothing but a couple of healers and a dps left up it showed the difference between what a competent raider can do and what the ass clowns calling LFR anything but a non orchestrated circus can do.

So, no I am not "too good to participate" but many are not good enough to earn my help.

---------- Post added 2013-03-22 at 02:10 PM ----------

But, really, aren't you basically saying you have to raid before you're allowed to raid? I mean, you're beating around the bush, that's basically what I'm gathering from this. It's a big catch 22.

honestly at my average level of raiding no. I am not interested in brining players in that do not meet at least a minimum level of experience and LFR certainly does not count.

[Firebert]

honestly at my average level of raiding no. I am not interested in brining players in that do not meet at least a minimum level of experience and LFR certainly does not count.

Either the minimum level of experience required is LFR and you're lying, or the minimum level of experience required is Normal and you're not recruiting.

[judgementofantonidas]

The vibe in LFR these days is a lot better all around than it was in Cataclysm. Much less ranting in /raid, and because of the new loot system, there are never guild groups of putzes.

It's still not ideal, but as you say, it's a lot more "businesslike" than it was a year ago.

the "guild groups of putzes", who incidentally carried hundreds of people through the initial LFR experience.

---------- Post added 2013-03-22 at 02:14 PM ----------

Either the minimum level of experience required is LFR and you're lying, or the minimum level of experience required is Normal and you're not recruiting.

We absolutely are recruiting. Our current standard for recruits is that they have completed 16/16 normal mode. After the final 10% nerf is ok with us as at least they had put in the effort.