Assassination rotation in 5.2

[glowpipe]

Hello fellow champions. Or perhaps not fellow champions due to the fact i do not really consider myself an champion of any sorts

Anyhow. Rotation. For a muti rogue. This is how i go by. Can it be improved ?

I start by pre potting + stealth. Open with Mutilate from stealth + mutilate and 4cp SnD. Then muti to 2 cp and use rupture,

Now i go by trying to muti to 5 cp and either refresh my rupture on 1-2 sec remaining or use envenom at around 50 energy. I try to never use envenom again before there is less than 1 sec on the envenom buff. On 35% and less im spamming dispatch and envenom. most of the time clipping the envenom buff due to increased cp and energy generation.

I use the dispatch proc when it procs. Never saving it.

Is there anything else you would have done here ?

[jsz]

Open with Ambush.

Get SnD up with the 2-3 combo points you get from the Ambush.

[theherecy]

Open with Ambush.

Get SnD up with the 2-3 combo points you get from the Ambush.

Ambush was simmed to be such a tiny improvement over mut from stealth, check it out on EJ somewhere. This was before they buffed dispatch, so my bets are that mutilate is a better opener. This is disregarding the fact the boss can be a bit jerky at times so *any* delay is a DPS loss.

[Daerio]

Open with Mutilate from stealth + mutilate and 4cp SnD. Then muti to 2 cp and use rupture,

I'm not 100% sure if it's better or not, but I open with mutilate > 5cp rupture > 1+ cp SnD. Even if it's only 1 CP for SnD, I'll have my first envenom up before SnD wears off. I think any extra CP spent on SnD activation is wasted.

The first two mutilates (shadow focus on first) are potentially enough to have full rupture and SnD up in the first 4 GCDs. If you open 1 Mutilate > SnD you're going to energy cap.

[Kael]

I can guarantee that either route you take, you do NOT want to spend 4+ CP on SnD. It refreshes on your first envenom to the 5-CP max duration regardless of application number; ideally, you actually get a 1-2CP SnD up from your dispatch proc if you open with mut (which is VERY slightly ahead of ambush, since the Dispatch buff), but you can't rely on that at all.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...e-nitty-gritty should answer your questions, and if it doesn't, we'll likely want to append any information there. 5.2 update just puts mut ahead of ambush; everything else regarding the opener should remain the same.

[Koji2k11]

I can guarantee that either route you take, you do NOT want to spend 4+ CP on SnD. It refreshes on your first envenom to the 5-CP max duration regardless of application number; ideally, you actually get a 1-2CP SnD up from your dispatch proc if you open with mut (which is VERY slightly ahead of ambush, since the Dispatch buff), but you can't rely on that at all.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...e-nitty-gritty should answer your questions, and if it doesn't, we'll likely want to append any information there. 5.2 update just puts mut ahead of ambush; everything else regarding the opener should remain the same.

yep i had to get rid of this stupid opener since i used to open like this for like a 1-2 weeks before i realized holy shit what am i doing

[Wheelchair]

Hello sorry but I don't like to hear sub par info. In t15 4p - Its mut>rup> (IF blindside>snd) mut>snd vendetta > sb. In non T15 4p its mut>mut>rup>mut (or blindside) >snd>vendetta>sb. The reason for this is because with mutilate, you have a ~40% to proc 2 instant poisons instantly making the DPS(e) much higher with mut rather then ambush.

[Kael]

It's actually not "much" higher DPS, since last tier in the gear being tested, ambush was ahead, and the only relevant change we've seen is a 15% dispatch increase. That 15% increase to a 30% chance is a small boost (15% of PART of the damage 30% of the time). Since ambush's lead was SO small, mut pushes ahead. That reason would have existed last tier if mutilate was ahead because of the poisons; it was only on par, and very slightly behind.

Again, mutilate is currently ahead. The above is just a history lesson.

[Deleted]

My opener:

Prepot/stealth -> Mutilate -> SnD -> Shadowblades -> Mutilate -> Rupture if i got 4 CP otherwise another Mutilate/Dispatch proc -> Vendetta -> Mutilate -> Vanish -> Mutilate -> Prep -> Vanish -> Mutilate -> Envenom ~~~~~~
If i get lucky with alot of Dispatch procc i clip envenom and gets insane burst ~during openers.

I refresh Rupture with less then 1 sec left.
I keep SnD during whole bossfight.

Anyone got any problem with that? Please do tell what i can do better.

[Deleted]

My opener:

Prepot/stealth -> Mutilate -> SnD -> Shadowblades -> Mutilate -> Rupture if i got 4 CP otherwise another Mutilate/Dispatch proc -> Vendetta -> Mutilate -> Vanish -> Mutilate -> Prep -> Vanish -> Mutilate -> Envenom ~~~~~~
If i get lucky with alot of Dispatch procc i clip envenom and gets insane burst ~during openers.

I refresh Rupture with less then 1 sec left.
I keep SnD during whole bossfight.

Anyone got any problem with that? Please do tell what i can do better.

It's all good. Just don't clip envenom unless you absolutely have to, and you're golden.

[Coldkil]

No, it's not bad.

Just, it's not like you can define a static rotation. It's just:
- put up SnD
- put up Rupture
- go mad with envenoms (4+ if not anticipation, otherwise 5cp always)
- refresh rupture if < 1 second duration.

The rest depends on a lot of things, like the fight mechanics, downtime, concurrent expiring timers, etc. Good rogues are good in managing these variables that you cannot predict on paper and no one will be able to tell you.

[NonMagical]

I've tried several openers and read a bit on EJ about it. The most common consensus I could get is that

1) Since SnD uptime is more important than Rupture uptime, you should always get SnD up first.
2) DPS aside, Mutilate is typically a better opener as it gives you a chance to proc dispatch which is an additional combo point to work with when you want to use it. It also has two chances to crit (and proc an extra combo point) versus one. It's more flexibility for your opener.
3) The more globals you waste getting Rupture up the worse your opener is.

So what I like to do and what has worked well for me is: Mut -> SnD -> Dispatch (if it proc'd from the previous Mut) -> Mut (to 3+ combo points, typically only taking 1) -> Rupture -> Anticipation -> SB -> Normal rotation.

It's likely better to weave in SB after your SnD in order to get a higher point Rupture at the start, but it would only be marginal. I personally prefer to keep SB rolling with Anticipation. Truth be told though, all these openers are marginal. In a 10 minute fight, your opener is going to account for a measly 0.8% of your DPS (5 globals over 600 seconds), and if your DPS during those 5 globals is +/- 10,000 you won't even be able to see the impact on the final parse. What's the difference between 62,389,692 total damage (103,982 DPS) and 62,339,692 total damage (103,899 DPS)? Not enough that I'm going to lose sleep over it.

[Sesshou]

For your second point, that makes no sense. You say dps aside, yet all those follow up things you only care about because of how they effect dps. Mut is potentially worth more, but on average (pre 5.2 as the dispatch buff may have shifted it) ambush is better.

If you do open with mut and get a proc, I would not use it where you are saying as you are likely to energy cap. I would do another mut and rupture, hit ven/SB and then burn the dispatch proc. If your SnD procs RS you are guaranteed to be sitting at full energy as you use your free dispatch (theres a good chance you are either way), and I think that makes the 30% chance you waste a proc worth it to be able to spend the otherwise unspendable energy.

[NonMagical]

For your second point, that makes no sense. You say dps aside, yet all those follow up things you only care about because of how they effect dps. Mut is potentially worth more, but on average (pre 5.2 as the dispatch buff may have shifted it) ambush is better.

If you do open with mut and get a proc, I would not use it where you are saying as you are likely to energy cap. I would do another mut and rupture, hit ven/SB and then burn the dispatch proc. If your SnD procs RS you are guaranteed to be sitting at full energy as you use your free dispatch (theres a good chance you are either way), and I think that makes the 30% chance you waste a proc worth it to be able to spend the otherwise unspendable energy.

My second point was not followed up by effects on DPS. I clearly stated it was to increase flexibility in rotation. "additional combo point to work with", "proc an extra combo point", "more flexibility for your opener". Those are all quotes from that 2nd point.

And using an energy capped dispatch vs Mutilating and 35% of the time losing a Dispatch because you procced a second one? My napkin math could be totally wrong here but... How much energy do you get back a second? 15? So you are basically wasting 15 energy to use that Dispatch. If it procs a third of the time, you could average out the energy cost of that Dispatch to be.. 45 energy? I'd argue the difference between Dispatching when I do or Mutilating again to be pretty close in value over many fights. Close enough that DPS impact would be non-existent on a final parse. So again, negligible DPS is negligible.

Edit: And to add to you point of SnD proccing energy... I suppose we would argue without question that Dispatching if SnD didn't proc energy (and thus not being capped, especially with openers no longer being 100% reduced energy cost) would be the best choice. So since I'm probably averaging around 2.5 or less combo points with my opener, more often than not I'd not get that energy refund. It seems pretty silly to me to fine tune my opener so closely that I would make it that specific. (If I proc Dispatch but I don't get an energy refund then I use it, if I proc Dispatch and do get an energy refund then I don't use it). Too much mental investment for too little payout. It's better to just have a blanket rule.

[Wheelchair]

nonmagical, rupture is much more important then SnD, every top player knows this. Noxe, Ahdehl, Killars, and myself, Hansell. Putting up a mut>mut*> rupture gives you the 10 energy regen much quicker and gives you a chance to blindside to 1pt SnD and then refresh it quickly via envenom, to its full duration. Your initial burst may not be as high but your overall damage will be much higher. Check logs thoroughly and look at the top DPS-ers rotation via expression browser on worldoflogs

[Sesshou]

My second point was not followed up by effects on DPS. I clearly stated it was to increase flexibility in rotation. "additional combo point to work with", "proc an extra combo point", "more flexibility for your opener". Those are all quotes from that 2nd point.

Yes and what is the end goal for why you care about extra CP or more crits, etc? Dps. You are hoping your "flexibility" results in you gaining dps. If the added flexibility never gave any dps whatsoever, why would that matter exactly?

As to whats worth using when, I remember seeing a sim suggesting that ambush was on top followed by mut without using dispatch even if it proc'd followed by mut with dispatch immediately if proc'd. If some one has some new numbers, I'm all ears.

[Verain]

It's actually not "much" higher DPS, since last tier in the gear being tested, ambush was ahead, and the only relevant change we've seen is a 15% dispatch increase.

Well TECHNICALLY another change was shadow focus only reduces PART of the energy cost, instead of all of it. This means that ambush and mutilate no longer share a cost of 0: ambush actually costs more than mutilate now.

Still small potatoes, but yea, both work together to make mutilate edge ambush. I'm pretty sure this means that a mutilate rogue should basically NEVER ambush, even in pvp. Maybe if you are solo and have Nightstalker?

[Demeia]

I thought there was a bunch of this crap on the EJ thread and then someone posted a bunch of numbers showing the differences were so absolutely trivial that it almost didn't matter what you did. I like getting rupture up but I suppose I should get SnD up if dispatch doesn't proc and then get a lil' rupture. I'd definitely pick mutilate unless ambush just crushed it because ambush requires you to be behind and I have been embarrassed and found myself not really attacking after all. ("Why is this not working! Oh, right.") Advice from a bad rogue.

[theherecy]

I thought there was a bunch of this crap on the EJ thread and then someone posted a bunch of numbers showing the differences were so absolutely trivial that it almost didn't matter what you did. I like getting rupture up but I suppose I should get SnD up if dispatch doesn't proc and then get a lil' rupture. I'd definitely pick mutilate unless ambush just crushed it because ambush requires you to be behind and I have been embarrassed and found myself not really attacking after all. ("Why is this not working! Oh, right.") Advice from a bad rogue.

This. I pretty much summed it up in my first post that ANY downtime from not hitting the boss immediately with ambush over mutilate would result in negative gains.

As of 5.2 dispatch hits harder, so I'm certain mutilate is stronger. With that said if you hit mutilate, vanish + mutilate procs dispatch you could then go on to waste it. Though my resounding advice is to:

Mutiliate
IF dispatch proc AND CP > 2
Dispatch
Complete to 5 CP
Rupture
ELSE SnD
Dispatch (if applicable)
Complete to 5 CP
Rupture

[NonMagical]

The idea of extra flexibility, while it relates I suppose indirectly to DPS, is just piece of mind in getting everything up smoother. If you can't separate the concept of flexibility from straight DPS increase then I don't know what to tell you. Ease of play is something I value. I would trade extra flexibility at a loss of theoretical DPS if the trade-off was good. Many people would agree with me (and most people did so in WotLK when Rupture-less cycles became popular, despite being a spreadsheet DPS loss).

In regards to this notion "top rogues" and "everybody knowing this", the only discussion I remember on EJ about openers is here:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130892-...6/#post2209599

So if things have changed then this is news to me. But at the time what I said holds true. But like I said earlier and like Demeia just said... Who the hell cares, really? I made a point that +/- 10k DPS on your opener ends up being less than 100 DPS difference at the end of a moderately long fight. According to that EJ post, we aren't even talking +/- 10k DPS, we are talking +/- 1k DPS. So the difference at the end of the fight is +/- 10 DPS.

Call the press.

What you should do, instead of worrying about the "optimal opener" is open with whatever is most comfortable / natural to you. As long as you get Rupture and SnD up in 5 globals or less, nothing else matters. Arguing differently is really splitting hairs.