Rogue PvP 5.2

[Dieselol]

Hey everyone.

I am kind of puzzled by all the discussions going on at the moment about rogues being madly OP and FOTM and all that. I mean going from Cata rogue to MOP rogue we are still much weaker. And to be honest in 5.0 we were at the weakest state we have ever been in and in 5.1 we are one of the weakest classes.

The only real buffst I can see are:

4% more damage while bleed is up
20 more energy
and shuriken toss that nobody wants (I personally find a ranged slow much, much stronger than a few auto attacks that are only strong in a duell vs cloth and leather). So this is more a nerf to me.
Prep baseline (this is the strongest buff) but really only gives us back what we've had since the classic days. (give back the purple icon )
Cloak 1min (more a balance since it is now off prep) - not a buff or nerf.
1% recup (still useless, too expensive and does nothing with battle fatigue)

Everything else are just changes to unloved talents.

People will still pick:

Subterfuge/shadowfocus
combat readyness
Elusivness/cheat death
shadowstep
pray on the weak
shuriken toss

I really don't get all the fuss, nothing really changes rogue will do a little bit more damage and will have a bit more mobility and survival thanks to prep (wich tbh is a terrible designed ability but whatever)

Going from cata we still have to juggle 4 finishers (SnD, rup, KS, Evis) 5 if we want healing.
we lost ALL passive crit (biggest hit in my book)
recup 24/7 for energy
2 smoke bombs
baseline deadly throw
6%dmg reduction and 20% heal from all sources.

Really, all people are judging on is people in BIS gear on ptr shuriken tossing people to death because in a 1vs1 situation it is really strong in rbgs and 3vs3/5vs5 it will be worse than currently and I might even pick up anticipation.

Thought? Flames? whines? grammer nazis? (haha I'm German :>)

[Divinator]

Biggest buff is prep. The extra energy is basically a QoL improvement because of how much everything cost(specifically talking about mut/combat pvp and ramp up times). The sad thing is, once were out of energy, were still back to the same spot as we have been since the begining of this xpac. The biggest tihng people complained about was the lack of energy regen in mut and combat (pvp speaking), not so much the amount of energy we had.

Every other change they made is small and not really a huge factor. I do like the deadly throw change since its going to be a lot more effective vs caster teams; mainly speaking for 2's and 3's. Shuriken toss is w/e. People use it because it generates combo points from range. Thats it.

TLR rogues will be ok, and having prep is baseline is nice.

[Coldkil]

Not entering in the discussion as i feel a lot has already been said; just letting you know that similar threads haven't gone well so keep an eye on your posts. For now everything's well.

[Eazy]

I am kind of puzzled by all the discussions going on at the moment about rogues being madly OP and FOTM and all that. I mean going from Cata rogue to MOP rogue we are still much weaker. And to be honest in 5.0 we were at the weakest state we have ever been in and in 5.1 we are one of the weakest classes.

I completely agree with you. There's no reason to think otherwise.

The only real buffst I can see are:
4% more damage while bleed is up
20 more energy
and shuriken toss that nobody wants (I personally find a ranged slow much, much stronger than a few auto attacks that are only strong in a duell vs cloth and leather). So this is more a nerf to me.
Prep baseline (this is the strongest buff) but really only gives us back what we've had since the classic days. (give back the purple icon )
Cloak 1min (more a balance since it is now off prep) - not a buff or nerf.
1% recup (still useless, too expensive and does nothing with battle fatigue)

I play Assassination(it's good, even my DoTs killed some rogues while they were trying to kill me in KS), and this 4% damage isn't really anything for me.
+20 more energy is ok, but we still need Rupture and Slice and Dice to get full burst, which is STUPID for me.
Shuriken Toss sucks, and it cannot be compared to the other classes level 90 abilities, but still it's our best option I think?
Prep baseline, they should have done it before I think, choosing between Prep and Shadow Step was one of the hardest thing for me.
Cloak 1 min, it's ok, maybe little too op for OP LOCKS ( ().
1% Recuperate, this change is ridiculous, no one really use this skill anymore, it was good in Cata because with it reduced damage taken, healed you for more and even increased your DPS. They're trying to buff us up in the wrong way, I don't want to be "long-lasting warrior".

Going from cata we still have to juggle 4 finishers (SnD, rup, KS, Evis) 5 if we want healing.
we lost ALL passive crit (biggest hit in my book)
recup 24/7 for energy
2 smoke bombs
baseline deadly throw
6%dmg reduction and 20% heal from all sources.

Passive Crits were must-have to be honest for Subtlety rogues, now outside Shadow Dance we hit like a wet noodles.
2 smoke bombs were awesome for me(maybe because I'm a rogue), but people were whining on the forums about it.
Baseline Deadly Throw was also good.
6% damage reduction and 20% heal from all sources were really needed because our survivability sucks.

I think they should just reduce attack speed from Slice and Dice and increase damage of Mutilate, Backstab/Ambush(crits?). I do not want our main damage depends of out Attack Speed because it's foolishly, it's good for PvE, but not for PvP, where can't always be on the target. And it's obvious that we should do Big Crits instead of doing line-damage
(if someone don't know what I mean I'll try to explain:

2 rogues are doing 100,000 damage in 5 second.

Rogue nr 1 hits for 50 k every 2,5 second and Rogue nr 2 hits for 10k every 0,5 second, for me the first option is better because of the understandable reasons I wrote before).

[Dieselol]

Not entering in the discussion as i feel a lot has already been said; just letting you know that similar threads haven't gone well so keep an eye on your posts. For now everything's well.

All peaceful Need to have some discussion going on without people insulting.

And just a few statistics to add to the discussion http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0---0-0-0.html

[Deleted]

Almost agree with the everything said here -

The numerous posts such as “OMFG NERF ROGUE! I GOT GLOBALED!” have me totally baffled, as on PTR, my ability to burst people down hasn't really changed from live :/
Number wise, generally I'm not seeing rogues dominating on ether damage or kills. That said, they are defiantly stronger vs casters and to an extent healers too.

I feel almost all the buffs (Shuriken toss excluded here) we have received are rather conservative and haven't really helped with problems many have been complaining about like survivability, slow energy regen and clunky buff/dot maintenance.


Thoughts on the new abilities and changes:

Marked for Death – This ability seems to be mentioned in a lot rogue complaint threads, but while using it as Sub spec, burst damage wise, I don't really see a difference to anticipation. Specifically in battlegrounds, I see it being more helpful than anticipation as it allows you an instant hard hit, useful if your assisting someone in quickly killing a target. Also, it can be useful for utility, granting an instant recoup or random kidney shot etc. In terms of damage however, spec'ing anticipation produced at least the same extra 5 combo points during your shadow dance burst stun.

4% more damage for sub with bleeds up and 20 more energy from set bonus – Both seem fairly minor and hard to notice tbh.

Prep baseline – This, with cloak removed, seems a totally fair and reasonable buff. Like you say, most rogues had this in pvp until mop, or rather a more powerful version of it.

Cloak change - A sensible balance change rather than having it on prep.

Recoup buff- A reasonable buff to the heal, but still feels fairly weak. Probably balanced if we could afford the points and energy to maintain it regularly.

Smoke bomb's 20% damage reduction – Worth popping now in mele burst situations I guess.

Cloak and Dagger – Again, I see this being rarely used in arena (longer fights) but being quite handy for maintaining pressure in short ones e.g Battleground burst pressure.

Deadly throw interrupt working from 3 points and above – I see this having a niche use in certain match ups vs classes who need to cast a lot e.g. shamans, priests or fire mages. However, against most other classes with more instants or mele, we are simply to fragile to ignore combat readiness or nerve strike.

Shuriken Toss – Over the past few weeks, I've seen a decent portion on rogues almost exclusively using this ability to kill in pvp. Spamming feint, shuriken toss, smoke bomb, perphaps a shadowstep stun, then more shuriken.
Used as primary source of damage, it doesn't really hit that hard, perhaps a bit op for assassination due to poisons. The depressing thing however, is just how effective spamming one ability actually is - This type of play style just feels bad, its essentially simplified one of the most complex classes in the game to the dumbest - You can now kill bad players in Bgs by just doing the above.

What I feel really makes Shuriken Toss strong is in the difference its making against kitting classes. Specifically, classes who previously greatly benefited from keeping us rooted while they healed, charged something up etc and has essentially moved us from probably the crappiest mele based damage dealer while being kited to the strongest.
It feels to me like a cheap band aid to cover the gaping holes of our class currently, and a rather unfair buff over kiter classes. Having said this, its hard to imagine a feasible alternative, what is more fair? An ability which takes skill to mitigate (5-10 yard and 30-40 yard kitting) or a reversion to granting us more burst, and back to the days of killing in a stun?


The oddest thing about these rogue buffs is that while becoming a bit of a nightmare for some classes we will remain feeble against many others. The 5.2 changes will alter next to nothing vs mele cleaves, and we will remain the primary target to be quickly crushed in arena.

[djrajir]

I think they should just reduce attack speed from Slice and Dice and increase damage of Mutilate, Backstab/Ambush(crits?). I do not want our main damage depends of out Attack Speed because it's foolishly, it's good for PvE, but not for PvP, where can't always be on the target. And it's obvious that we should do Big Crits instead of doing line-damage
(if someone don't know what I mean I'll try to explain:

2 rogues are doing 100,000 damage in 5 second.

Rogue nr 1 hits for 50 k every 2,5 second and Rogue nr 2 hits for 10k every 0,5 second, for me the first option is better because of the understandable reasons I wrote before).

I don't mind us being attack speed based, after all its part of what it means to be a rouge. I do however think they need to do something about our burst and slow energy regen. I think the best solution would be to bake SnD into Evis. and Envenom. It would also be nice if Recup and Kidney Shot or Rupture were baked together too but not as important.

This change alone would fix the energy issue and help with sustained dmg. Burst would be slightly better too but only marginal.