AH "really hurt the game" - Wilson

[Vespian]

P.S. Have WD dog pets suddenly grown more...solid? I remember them dying pretty much every second of the game (yes it is that long since I played a WD). Are they now viable up til and into Inferno?

[traen]

Nough said.

You misunderstand the principles of looting vs AH.
- Loot an item.
- Wait until it start's getting you close to death before you upgrade and hope you get an upgrade drop.
- You do not get an upgrade drop.
- You buy an item that lasts you a minimum of 10 levels before it loses its value.
- You keep playing until it loses its value and you end up getting close to death a few times.
- You do not get an upgrade drop.
- You still, dont, get, an, upgrade drop.
- You sighingly decide to buy another upgrade.
- You play until the upgrade loses its value.
- You keep playing until you end up almost dying a few times, with an increased heartrate showing in your face.
- You do not find an upgrade in any drops.
- You realize you're never going to find an upgrade without the AH, at least until level 60.
- You buy an upgrade from the AH.

I'm telling you you are playing it the way it was not supposed to be played.

There are 2 way
1st way:

Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
...
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
You are lvl60.

The "true" way of playing the game. Tough, but interesting.

2nd way

Get levl3. Buy 10 items.
Get levl10. Buy 10 items.
Get level15. Buy 10 items and red gem.
...
Get level40: Buy 10 items

level 42. Wtf, I found an item that is better than the one I bought? wtf did I spend money on my upgrade then?
Lvl45: nvm, replaced it with -15 reduced level epic.
...
Get level60. Buy full inferno gear, kill diablo o inferno mp5.

99.9999% of people play like this nowadays.

You way;

Get level10. buy 10 items.
Wtf, can't find an upgrade.
Get level20, buy 10 items
Wtf, can't find an upgrade.
Get level30, buy 10 items.
Wtf can't find an upgrade.
...
Get level60, buy 10 items.
Go whining on forums.

OFC YOU CAN'T, BECAUSE YOU KEEP BUYING THEM INSTEAD OF FARMING THEM FROM MONSTERS!!

There is no need for direct comparisons. I don't want perfect ilvl 20 drops from ilvl20 mobs when I just bought an ilvl20 item. But I do somewhat expect to find a suitable weapon at lvl 30, which doesn't happen, because a weapon that can compete with the auction house items, won't drop until lvl 40 and always with the wrong stats.

And? What's your point? It's EXACTLY what I told you.

But the funny thing is...
If you are a d2 fan. How many times did you loot oculus on level 42 while playing sorceress?
Obviously you can farm it from mefisto, but you will probably hit lvl50 while you are farming.
And you are not farming anything in d3. You expect items to appear miraculously from A thin air while you are leveling.

We're not talking about 50 armor 20 int instead of 10 and 10 vit instead of nil, We're talking about finding a Voodoo Mask with strictly STR & DEX.

Then it was not an item that was supposed to be disenchanted to give you reagents to craft your upgrade.

But, I'll make you a deal. I'm going to roll a new character, and I won't buy any AH items. I will solo and I will document each and every rare I find and if applicable, good Magic items. Obviously Legendaries will be listed. I'll make a WD.

Brilliant! Now we are talking!
I was almost afraid that you can't do anything but talking. And you are the man after all!

I'll wait for your updates.

[Flame6]

. Lets face it, if this game didn't have an AH than people would just be buying gear on a website somewhere else.

[Vespian]

I'm telling you you are playing it the way it was not supposed to be played.

There are 2 way
1st way:

Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
...
Loot an item
Loot an item
Loot an item
You are lvl60.

The "true" way of playing the game. Tough, but interesting.

2nd way

Get levl3. Buy 10 items.
Get levl10. Buy 10 items.
Get level15. Buy 10 items and red gem.
...
Get level40: Buy 10 items

level 42. Wtf, I found an item that is better than the one I bought? wtf did I spend money on my upgrade then?
Lvl45: nvm, replaced it with -15 reduced level epic.
...
Get level60. Buy full inferno gear, kill diablo o inferno mp5.

99.9999% of people play like this nowadays.

You way;

Get level10. buy 10 items.
Wtf, can't find an upgrade.
Get level20, buy 10 items
Wtf, can't find an upgrade.
Get level30, buy 10 items.
Wtf can't find an upgrade.
...
Get level60, buy 10 items.
Go whining on forums.

OFC YOU CAN'T, BECAUSE YOU KEEP BUYING THEM INSTEAD OF FARMING THEM FROM MONSTERS!!

I don't even.

My way is actually loot item loot item loot item.

But I can't because it makes me be dead.

Being dead means I can't play.

AHH ETERNAL CIRCLE OF DEATH.

Btw, you write like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuRw6IFccpY sounds. I love that guy, started watching him after he modded one of the airsoft guns that I own, but still I find it more disturbing on this board. It's like I'm discussing the game with a Chinese farmer...

Did Youtube just go down?

[traen]

P.S. Have WD dog pets suddenly grown more...solid? I remember them dying pretty much every second of the game (yes it is that long since I played a WD). Are they now viable up til and into Inferno?

No, it's monster damage. It was nerfed by 100-200% on inferno. Not viable as permanent summons, more like a resource and crowd control thing.

[Reclaimer]

You know. Just because you and some of your friends do something. Don't mean everyone or most people do it too. If your using the AH to buy items ever 10 levels then its clear your doing it on an ALT and you have the money. Everyone talks like people just buy the game then hit the RMAH for gold the 1st second they get on. Sure maybe a tiny amount of players that joined the game late did that but when the game 1st came out there was no RMAH.

The fact is simple. Your not going to find upgrades if you are not willing to look for them. If you don't believe good items drop or can be crafted go look on the AH right now and see some of the insane Conquest swords and axes selling for 2 billion. You can get drops but if your not going to put in the effort then obviously your going to get no where without the AH. People say " Oh don't pick up this this and this. Glad i don't listen I pick up everything and some of the stuff I found has sold for 400m+

I was farming act 1 inferno on day 3 of the game coming out. Yes. As in the real meaning of farming. Being able to do it easy no deaths pulling 3 elite packs at the same time and destroying it. I farmed all of the items I used to do it from Act 3 hell. Never used a penny on the AH because I used it to get my Blacksmith and jeweler up. I also made my own gear too. Maybe your unlucky. Maybe you think your putting in effort. Maybe your a troll and lying out your ass. who knows? Truth is out there.

[Vespian]

You know. Just because you and some of your friends do something. Don't mean everyone or most people do it too. If your using the AH to buy items ever 10 levels then its clear your doing it on an ALT and you have the money. Everyone talks like people just buy the game then hit the RMAH for gold the 1st second they get on. Sure maybe a tiny amount of players that joined the game late did that but when the game 1st came out there was no RMAH.

The fact is simple. Your not going to find upgrades if you are not willing to look for them. If you don't believe good items drop or can be crafted go look on the AH right now and see some of the insane Conquest swords and axes selling for 2 billion. You can get drops but if your not going to put in the effort then obviously your going to get no where without the AH. People say " Oh don't pick up this this and this. Glad i don't listen I pick up everything and some of the stuff I found has sold for 400m+

I was farming act 1 inferno on day 3 of the game coming out. Yes. As in the real meaning of farming. Being able to do it easy no deaths pulling 3 elite packs at the same time and destroying it. I farmed all of the items I used to do it from Act 3 hell. Never used a penny on the AH because I used it to get my Blacksmith and jeweler up. I also made my own gear too. Maybe your unlucky. Maybe you think your putting in effort. Maybe your a troll and lying out your ass. who knows? Truth is out there.

*cough level 1-60 cough*

Not having to rely on the AH for your journey TO 60.

Oh and ps, farming inferno @ dy 3? Yeah, on SC maybe. And even then I think that's called something with teeth lying.

Show me your twitch footage with the exact dates and times.

No, it's monster damage. It was nerfed by 100-200% on inferno. Not viable as permanent summons, more like a resource and crowd control thing.

Remember, I'm playing at normal. They used to die pretty quickly on normal

[Glorious Leader]

I

OFC YOU CAN'T, BECAUSE YOU KEEP BUYING THEM INSTEAD OF FARMING THEM FROM MONSTERS!!

You don't get it. It's not like we're going 10 levels without an upgrade, we're going through LARGE CHUNKS (30-40 lvls) OF THE GAME WITHOUT ANY UPGRADES. We are almost forced at that point to resort to using the vendor or AH because we're not interested in:

A. Challenge
B. Farm for new reward

We're interested in being entertained and that comes from being REWARDED FOR TIME INVESTED BY HAVING BOSSES DROP LOOT. Now the reward for time invested has taken a hit in this game for a number of reasons but primarily because of the AUCTION HOUSE. You telling us how to play the game doesn't make the game better or fun, we understand your a sadist and only play the game for the "challenge" of it. Good for you. We want to kill bosses and get loot at a good pace, not go 30-40 levels without an upgrade, have to buy upgrades from the vendor just to keep up and then yea of course we get no upgrades BECAUSE THEY NEVER DROP.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't even.

My way is actually loot item loot item loot item.

But I can't because it makes me be dead.

Being dead means I can't play.

AHH ETERNAL CIRCLE OF DEATH.

Btw, you write like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuRw6IFccpY sounds. I love that guy, started watching him after he modded one of the airsoft guns that I own, but still I find it more disturbing on this board. It's like I'm discussing the game with a Chinese farmer...

Did Youtube just go down?

I don't get it honestly. What's being explained to them is very straightforward but they sit in denial about it. SO I'm not supposed to get upgrades in normal, in NORMAL the game is supposed to be a fucking brick wall cock block challenge (which it wasn't in diablo 1 or diablo 2 btw) and I'm circumventing this by going to the AH. Well no I'm sorry I don't buy that's how the game is supposed to be run, especially given that it was designed to have mass appeal but even if it was guess what? THAT'S STILL SHIT DESIGN BLIZZARD. No matter how you square it the game ends up being poorly designed BECAUSE OF THE AUCTION HOUSE. If you remove the AUCTION HOUSE and more importantly (this really is key) the responsibility on the part of the developers to maintain the games economy then it can go back to actually getting loot of bosses and not worrying about what effect it will have on the AH. That's the key. The inclusion of the AH demands that the developers take some responsibility for the games economy and subsequently the rest of the game is colored by it. I don't know how else to boil it down. When D2 was made nary a thought was given to D2Jsp or the economy that would bloom around the game. It was largely an organic affair on the part of the player base. When D3 was made guess what the first thing they decided they were gonna fuck around with and try and capitalize on.... Ultimately 30-40 levels without a single fucking upgrade is shit design ah or not.

I had a feeling though that even if the developers acknowledged that it did hurt the game some folks would still defend it's inclusion. Even when the god has left the shrine people still worship apparently.

[Vespian]

I don't even mind farming, I just don't want to spend level 50 farming nightmare for eternity in the hardly-any-chance situation where something useful drops. I should have been able to gear myself by running through content and clearing bosses. Inferno should then be the point where things start getting harder in the sense that you need gear for each act to stay on par, which is when you have reached level 60.

Anyways, I'll keep track of my progress in my diary, see sig.

[traen]

We are almost forced at that point to resort to using the vendor or AH because we're not interested in:

A. Challenge
B. Farm for new reward

That pretty much summarizes the new generation of players.

[Glorious Leader]

That pretty much summarizes the new generation of players.

No it doesn't. You can't summarize the goals and desires of millions into to broad categories. At best you can say they wan't to be entertained. But the ends of that are as varied as human makeup can allow for. They are far more varied then farm or challenge. I can list umpteenth number of games that had neither and were compelling. I'd wager I've played video games for longer than you have but even if it's not true I've been playing them since the 80s and even in the 80s I wasn't interested in farming or challenge. The "new generation" of gamers is the same no scotsman fallacy that you people like to throw around here to seperate yourselves from everybody else who doesn't agree with you, especially when theirs ALOT of people who don't agree with you. You just label them as the new generation and then dismiss them wether or not the label fits isn't relevant.

[Vespian]

That pretty much summarizes the new generation of players.

For the record, I want to mention that I'm not on that list :P

[traen]

For the record, I want to mention that I'm not on that list :P

Was not you supposed to be playing, Vespian?

[Vespian]

Was not you supposed to be playing, Vespian?

I don't recall making promises on speed. I'm currently reading Discworld 29 while enjoying some music and reading and watching movies/series/youtube on my TV/PC.

I love my couch, PC gaming from the most relaxed position ever.

- - - Updated - - -

Updated my Diary (see sig)

[Isotope]

I think this whole AH thing is a bit ridiculous. The people that are all for it tend to buy gold and the items and they don't see anything wrong with it. The people that hate it don't buy gold and don't want to buy items. Then there are people who don't care and just go with it.

The issue with items is huge. They have done a lot since release to fix this such as when on inferno the items will have a min ilvl of 58. Because you know farming act 1 inferno and getting level 40 items is awesome. The issue that people have is since you have an AH it makes perfect rolls or decent rolls a lot more rare. I will give you an example of this.

I found an Echoing Fury and it sold for 180million. I turned around and had a friend spend around 70million of it to get me a Archon set and a CM set. This was right as Uber Bosses came out and I was going to make a CM wizard so I had to level my Wizard still. Since then I have found ZERO upgrades to either set. I'm paragon 75 and all my upgrades have come from the AH. Let that set in for a while.

I farm MP10 and of course I get legendary's out the ass. However MAYBE 1 out of 100 will be worth putting on the AH. The rest just end up as brimstones. I can't think of the last rare gloves/rings/neck I've found that I've even bothered to not vendor and put on the AH.

That's what the AH has done to the game. It makes finding a good item few and far between. Think about all the mobs I've had to kill to get to 75, and the fact that not ONE item has dropped that has been an upgrade for me. In fact before I swapped to my Wizard I was a DH, and since the swap I've only found 3 replacements for her and they weren't even anything great as she was in a few legendary's and rares before the swap.

[Mormolyce]

When I was playing, I never bought a single item from the AH, RM or otherwise. It was a lot of fun to grind my own stuff. The whole point of Diablo is to grind gear, so if you buy it all what is the point of continuing to play? This is how I felt and played in D2 as well.

But that said, I still think it's a good idea for the game. I remember how 99% of people geared in D2 - buying dupes. This is a lot better than that at least.

Obviously,. d1 and d2,.
Can you say you owned every high end item available in each of those titles?
Yes, you can. How did you get them? Probably found them,

LOL
LOL
LOL

You found a Zod did you?

Highest drop chance in the game - Baal (Hell) - 0.00003% drop chance.
http://diablo.gamepedia.com/Runes_(Diablo_II)

People really REALLY do not fucking remember D2 accurately. D3 drop rates are paradise compared to D2.

or were able to trade for them,

You mean, from someone who duped them? Because that is where 99% of gear originated in D2.

[Mihalik]

Oh whop fucking do Blizzard!

Again, you ignored everyone that was telling you the RMAH was a bad idea, you balanced the game to the AH, then you were fucking amazed that everyone started fucking using it.

Item trade existed in D2 as well, and indeed you could have created a better trading system.

D3 crafting is a fucking joke. The Rune Stone system combined with sockets and drops of stated socketed items was a hundred billions time better then what we got in D3. That was the system that allowed you to largely circumvent the bad drops problem in D2. Couldn't find that set piece? Make one better and then trade it.

Anyways it was a combination of factors.

1, Lack of proper crafting of any kind.
2, Loot way too randomized.
3. An AH that allowed people to get the much much needed upgrades (especially in the early pre-nerf resistances stacking days) to carry on grinding. This meant the AH felt mandatory, not just to get the stuff you needed, but also to get the gold/money you needed to buy them, by selling your drops.

[traen]

Again, you ignored everyone that was telling you the RMAH was a bad idea, you balanced the game to the AH, then you were fucking amazed that everyone started fucking using it.

The game was initially balanced to be played without AH.
They had to add MP difficulty system that increases monster HP up to 3500% to balance the game around AH usage.

Item trade existed in D2 as well, and indeed you could have created a better trading system.

While maybe(just maybe) it's true, I've seen no single person who proposed anything better. If you look at other games you'll see that other developers failed to implement anything better.
Maybe you can invent one?

D3 crafting is a fucking joke. The Rune Stone system combined with sockets and drops of stated socketed items was a hundred billions time better then what we got in D3. That was the system that allowed you to largely circumvent the bad drops problem in D2. Couldn't find that set piece? Make one better and then trade it.

Crafting is a failure. But just as stupid as d2 crafting if you ask me.
And keep in mind that it was balanced around single play without AH usage, and before increasing drop 10x. People still use it for single play.

Runes were fun, but people were forced to use them because d2 developers failed to give any value to d2 gold. Gold was just something useless that dropped around for no reason. So players had to use something as a currency. Soj for example.
BTW there were no runes in the original D2. Who told you that they will not be implemented in d3 ros?
Also keep in mind that even runes did not have real value in the game. They were valuable because YOU was not able to find them.

If AH was implemented for d2 zod rune price would've been less than 10m d3 gold. They were not rare at all comparing to d3 drops. You can buy one for 1$ on external websites.

Now imagine that runes were implemented in d3 just the way they were implemented in d2.
Low level runes cost between 20 and 200 gold. No one bothers to pick them up. No one cares about anything but 3-5 rare specific runes for curtain crafts. Rune collecting does not exist because you can go and buy any rune at any time.

Anyways it was a combination of factors.

Just AH really.
Everything else was caused by AH.
But crafting. Crafting was a failure in d2 as well.

[Vespian]

The game was initially balanced to be played without AH.

That is a lie. A very big one. Or you're just utterly misinformed.

Diablo 3 on PS3. That is developed to be played without AH.

[Xjev]

lol confessing after they made millions out of AH..