5.3 PTR: Garrosh Spoilers

[Deleted]

at that rate he will push pregnant woman from stairs just for fun.

I Lol'd. +1

[Talen]

I really don't remember forced labor in Gilneas, I do so in Hillsbrad. How is that worse than execution, though? You rank forced labor as a worse fate than being executed?

But it isn't really forced labor. It's "Execution via forced labor".

I agree on the experimentation, though; that is pretty horrible. Yet, the magnitude of this seems to be far lesser than Garrosh's orders: Kor'kron are being sent to eradicate the trolls, the forsaken experiment on the few and have strict rules about it.p

The strict rules being - kill it if its alive unless there is a need for experimental guinea pigs. "Few" is a simple truth...that being the truth few are loeft alive once the Forsaken march through.

Sure, we could spend pages and pages discusing who's worse, but maybe we should just try to judge Garrosh's actions by themselves and not in light of Sylvanas and the other way around.

Garrosh is suppressing a rebellion in time honored Orc fashion - kill his foes.

1- It's not common policy, you don't see forsaken rounding up test subjects anywhere

That's because policy is to kill them.

Also, remember that Lydon sentenced the Warden to death when he uncovered not permitted experimentation with the humans of Hillbrad Hills, so it's not something taken in lightly.

He was executed for his experiments on Forsaken. The humans were in a prison camp, with a fully equipped lab, to which a high ranking Apothecary who loathed humans and who was known for his experiments on them was being assigned.

EJL

[Deleted]

though i think his actions are somewhat 'extreme'. it is the best strategy to deal with the uprising. it send a very strong message to what garrosh is willing to do. for each race in the horde it means different things.

Tauren: As Baine says, there are still alot of tauren in Ogrimmar, he knows what will happen should he openly join the rebellion.
Trolls: the consequenses of what happens to traitors.
Undead: they are still far away from durotar, though sylvanas doesn't need a reason to join she has yet to openly rebel. do not forget that lorewise the Undercity is under full occupation of the Kor'Kron.
Blood elves: same as the undead, they are still to openly rebel and join forces in durotar.

lorewise garrosh doesn't know that Sylvanas, Lor'themar Theron and potentionally Gallywiz will openly join the rebellion. though he might suspect that Baine will join, given that garrosh has reinforced the barrens. doing this is the best option to quell the rebellion before the other races can join.

It was very stupid of garrosh to make an attempt on Vol'jin's life and he shouldn't have openly disregarded the well-being of the blood elves and undead. but it was a very stupid move on vol'jin's part to openly rebel against garrosh without having the immediate support of the other races given that the orcs outnumber the trolls by alot.

[Adoxe]

though i think his actions are somewhat 'extreme'. it is the best strategy to deal with the uprising. it send a very strong message to what garrosh is willing to do. for each race in the horde it means different things.

Tauren: As Baine says, there are still alot of tauren in Ogrimmar, he knows what will happen should he openly join the rebellion.
Trolls: the consequenses of what happens to traitors.
Undead: they are still far away from durotar, though sylvanas doesn't need a reason to join she has yet to openly rebel. do not forget that lorewise the Undercity is under full occupation of the Kor'Kron.
Blood elves: same as the undead, they are still to openly rebel and join forces in durotar.

lorewise garrosh doesn't know that Sylvanas, Lor'themar Theron and potentionally Gallywiz will openly join the rebellion. though he might suspect that Baine will join, given that garrosh has reinforced the barrens. doing this is the best option to quell the rebellion before the other races can join.

It was very stupid of garrosh to make an attempt on Vol'jin's life and he shouldn't have openly disregarded the well-being of the blood elves and undead. but it was a very stupid move on vol'jin's part to openly rebel against garrosh without having the immediate support of the other races given that the orcs outnumber the trolls by alot.

Vol'jin has the support of Tauren,Blood Elves, Alliance and Thrall. Just listen to the 5.3 soundfiles and you'll know.

[Thulvaso]

tick..tick..tick that's the sound of Garrosh's life running out

Things are looking ever more worse for Garrosh now.

[Trassk]

And many do not. Most don't appear to even give that more than lip service, if they even pay attention to the notion of honor at all. A few hold those words to be true but they also appear to be the exception rather than the rule.

The Korkron are killing Darkspear? These Kor'kron have the excuse that the Darkspear are now in open rebellion against Garrosh. But your assertion that this is horrible because the Orcs are somehow acting against their nature is....overblown.

Its horrible because its a dictator summarily executing prisoners. Which is what Orcs do.

EJL

You just seemed to be trying to de-generalize what I was saying and then come right back to over generalize the subject in your own way. You just said so many orcs do not follow honor and now are saying orcs are the kind of execute prisoners.

See, this has nothing to do with orcs, this has everything to do with a corrupt leader, tyrannical in his approach, who captures and kills those who are tied and can't fight back.

And saying 'this is war this is what happens' DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY TO DO SO. Thats the point in all this, and the fact Garrosh supporters still are so lopsided to see what he's doing even now.

I knew this would happen tbh. I knew Garrosh would go off the deep end, and I knew no matter what he did, his fans would still say its awesome, because when you break it down, those are the only kind of people who would like a character like Garrosh in the first place, you know, the kind that laughs at seeing people fall down and break there backs.

---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 02:29 PM ----------

Down with Garrosh !!!!!

Its amusing when I think about how quickly the tide turns.

[Talen]

You just seemed to be trying to de-generalize what I was saying and then come right back to over generalize the subject in your own way. You just said so many orcs do not follow honor and now are saying orcs are the kind of execute prisoners.

The latter does not preclude the former - or vice versa. Indeed, honor would be indicated if the Orcs freed the prisoners, handed them back their weapons and saw them die in combat.

Did that happen?

Honor is a trait a few orcs share. Most do not. Garrosh is one of those that doesn't.

See, this has nothing to do with orcs, this has everything to do with a corrupt leader, tyrannical in his approach, who captures and kills those who are tied and can't fight back.

There are lots of rulers and leaders, not all bad or corrupt, who have executed prisoners for various reasons. The Darkspear are in open rebellion against his rule and summary execution of what appear to be largely captured warriors is not unprecedented, nor is it an act that orcs...given their past ethos and their own history...would find either unusual, unnecessary or unsettling.

Yes...he is dictatorial. Yes...he is a tyrannical warmonger. But he is the Warchief and he is suppressing a rebellion against his rule. And the suggestion that this act is somehow anathema to the Orcs, that it goes against a sense of honor many don't have, is wrong.

I knew this would happen tbh. I knew Garrosh would go off the deep end, and I knew no matter what he did, his fans would still say its awesome, because when you break it down, those are the only kind of people who would like a character like Garrosh in the first place, you know, the kind that laughs at seeing people fall down and break there backs.

I suppose being labelled a Garrosh supporter is a bit different from the usual cries of Alliance lover.

EJL

[Deleted]

Vol'jin has the support of Tauren,Blood Elves, Alliance and Thrall. Just listen to the 5.3 soundfiles and you'll know.

yes he has, but they haven't openly rebelled yet, the forsaken are still in Lordaeron, blood elves will join them when they are are done in the isle of thunder, the tauren are still waiting because there are many that remain in Ogrimmar. yes vol'jin has thrall but since he'll be entering ogrimmar (we don't know what will happen to him). we can assume that he'll be either captured or killed. though the alliance will support does not mean right away. we have yet to see anything of the alliance regarding the siege.

so atm the trolls stand alone.

[Deleted]

And saying 'this is war this is what happens' DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY TO DO SO. Thats the point in all this, and the fact Garrosh supporters still are so lopsided to see what he's doing even now.

Of course it doesn't make it okay, but we can't also deny that it's way more common that half the people on this thread seems think to be. Heck, it's happening right now on our world, on the many civil wars we have.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE] And saying 'this is war this is what happens' DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY TO DO SO. Thats the point in all this, and the fact Garrosh supporters still are so lopsided to see what he's doing even now. [QUOTE]

what is garrosh supposed to do, just let them rebel? the trolls are attempting to siege Ogrimmar, he needs to make an example of what will happen should other horde races rebel against him. at this point the trolls are commiting treason by rebelling against their warchief which is punishable by death, an entire race is rebelling against him, so to execute them you will have to do this.

[Trassk]

what is garrosh supposed to do, just let them rebel? the trolls are attempting to siege Ogrimmar, he needs to make an example of what will happen should other horde races rebel against him. at this point the trolls are commiting treason by rebelling against their warchief which is punishable by death, an entire race is rebelling against him, so to execute them you will have to do this.

See.. your still trying to stage this from Garrosh's point of view. What, should we have tried to understand Joseph Stalin's point of view too?

[Deleted]

See.. your still trying to stage this from Garrosh's point of view. What, should we have tried to understand Joseph Stalin's point of view too?

You are still assuming that people are defending Garrosh. Telling what he would logically do is different from telling he is doing the right thing. No, he is a tyrant that we are about to bring down, but it doesn't stop us to see things on a story point of view.

[iscalio]

See.. your still trying to stage this from Garrosh's point of view. What, should we have tried to understand Joseph Stalin's point of view too?

Of course. Understanding someone's motivations and viewpoint does not require me to agree with him. You can understand your enemy and still oppose him. Actively disregarding a villain's line of thought and instead branding him as a irrational monster doesn't do the story any good.

[Deleted]

See.. your still trying to stage this from Garrosh's point of view. What, should we have tried to understand Joseph Stalin's point of view too?

no, but looking to someones point of view does give an insight about what they would do and why they do it. vol'jin should have thought of garrosh's point of view, he should have known that garrosh wouldnt just sit and watch the trolls rebel against him. vol'jin should have waited till he had actual troops from other races before openly rebelling against garrosh. yes he has support, but as long as they aren't actually supporting they aren't helping.

[Florena]

See.. your still trying to stage this from Garrosh's point of view. What, should we have tried to understand Joseph Stalin's point of view too?

If you want a full and educated view on historical events...YES, you should consider ALL points of view. You can CONSIDER a point of view and understand it, maybe even sympathize with it slightly, without agreeing with it or thinking their actions were ultimately justified.

[Trassk]

If you want a full and educated view on historical events...YES, you should consider ALL points of view. You can CONSIDER a point of view and understand it, maybe even sympathize with it slightly, without agreeing with it or thinking their actions were ultimately justified.

Given what I've seen so far with several on this debate, that line is extremely thin.

[Deleted]

Given what I've seen so far with several on this debate, that line is extremely thin.

well often it may seem that way but that depends on what arguments someone uses, like you said the basic 'its war, thats what happens' has no arguments so it looks like someone agrees with what garrosh does, some actually do though. if you look often to the points of view from different persons, whether it be in real life or in a video game you can understand why people do what they do, which in the end changes everything.

[Thulvaso]

Based on the picture I'm thinking Blizzard could implement a sort of stealth/infiltration quests to free captives in the cages etc but you have to stay within a certain distance of the kor'kron unless you get shot there and then.

Whatever the case I'm actually more interested for 5.3 than 5.2 even without a new raid.

[Cuzzin]

Honestly I don't see an issue with it. We can't just go "Oh let's kill Garrosh in Orgrimmar" and siege the place. It needs build up. Quite honestly I think the worst is yet to come.

I agree with this

[Skytotem]

I thought the conversation was about WC2 era to Lord of the Clans. Florena was talking about generations between WC2 era and Lord of the Clans, you said Blizz sucks at timelines, she asked if the novel talked about how much time has passed (I'm assuming this is referring from the beginning of the novel til the end), you said you didn't know, so I tried to give you information. Unless I'm mistaken about what this entire conversation is about, which is entirely possible.

I was mostly noting that orcs age fast and that they're really sturdy, since we're flat out told Thrall's age but not the 'year' in the grand timeline, how long it's been since WC2 to Lord of the Clans is kind of irrelevant.

Also, Blizz has retconned the age of characters and time of events so much it's pretty much impossible to assemble a timeline.

---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 10:12 AM ----------

See.. your still trying to stage this from Garrosh's point of view. What, should we have tried to understand Joseph Stalin's point of view too?

We actually did, it's a shame Roosevelt died they got along pretty good, Truman did too but his advisors were a little me anti-communist and what with the atom bomb being dropped and Soviet policy basically revolving around 'How do we make sure germany doesn't invade us AGAIN!?" there was no room for diplomatic compromise.