What do you think of Hiroshima Bombings II?

[ringpriest]

See I'm not convinced. NK's connections with Russia and China are the ONLY reason America hasnt come to "liberate" it yet, and they wouldn't stand for by if it actually dropped a nuclear bomb or if they believed themselves that they would. Any leader's got to know that if he dropped a bomb, he would get pwned so quick by the rest of the world he wouldn't even know what happened.

There's another reason for not liberating North Korea: doing so would be a hideously expensive humanitarian disaster.

Kim Jong-Un's biggest threat isn't to use the couple of (small) nuclear weapons he (probably) has; it's to stop holding North Korea together. The country is, by all accounts, a disastrous basket case. If the North Korean government collapses, trying to keep it from turning into an Asian version of Somalia is going to be a full-time job for China, South Korea, Japan and probably the U.S. and Russia, for decades. No one wants to spend the hundreds of billions or risk the spread of nuclear, chemical, or ICBM technology to other bad actors.

And if, somehow, North Korea doesn't outright collapse, but instead starts to integrate with South Korea, there's a new problem beyond the massive blow to the South Korean economy. What happens to the North Korean nuclear program then? Will a unified Korea, which now shares a border with China, casually give up it's nuclear weapons program? I'd like to think so, but I'll bet there are strategic planners in Japan and China who have nightmares that they won't.

[Noomz]

A similar thread was made by me a few years ago, but with South Korea under grave threat of a similar incident occurring soon, I've decided to give it a rebirth.

What do you think of the bombings, and of North Korea repeating the tragedy again?

A pointless atrocity. There was no need to nuke Japan, they were already willing to surrender. If you think otherwise, you've fallen to the lies of the victors. There was no need for the nukes. None. It was all a show of power towards Russia.

North Korea won't be able to bomb anyone anywhere. Modern missile defenses will pick up their shitty rocket in no time.

[Wulfstan]

I think War is War. War isn't fair stop trying to make it that way. Also the Japanese were committing genocide against the Chinese, so they weren't innocent. The firebombings were worse anyway.

This topic is pointless anyway, we cant change what was done only learn from it.

[Varbaro]

why muricans think north-korea will do anything? there are several other threats in the world, just this is that the media push

[Seranthor]

Children in Japan are still suffering from birth defects from radiation in Nagasaki and Hiroshima today 60 years after the War ended. Americans think that Japan deserved it more than the Germans or Italians...

All I know is one day Americans will feel the heat of a nuclear blast on our soil and watch their children be born without a leg 60+ years later. Everyone else will say we had it coming too. Time is funny like that.

Perhaps you are right, that said, if you are worried about the US being nuked, now might be a good time to move to somewhere you dont think you'll be nuked.

[Åmbulance]

why muricans think north-korea will do anything? there are several other threats in the world, just this is that the media push

The media here is sickening. they all seem to always have an agenda, and try to split the people. The coverage is so biased that i can't watch it anymore. They all find one thing and latch onto like a parasite. First it wasIiraq and WMD's. Then Iran, now N Korea. Now gun laws. Every single one of them are so one sided, and erfuse to air anything to contradict their belief, and when they do the news host just attacks the person, never lets them finish a thought, then kicks them off air and calls them an idiot leading into a commercial break. Looking at you Fox News.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Aye, for instance, we really don't know what impact the initial radiation had on genetics in the area.

If I remember my physics classes correctly, radiation from bombs is powerful during the blast but will dissipate quicker than radiation from waste (which is a concentration of radiation) or from radiated materials in a meltdown situation (which is basically expelling waste outside of safe confines).

It certainly is a fascinating topic. Might read up on it more at some point. =)

Well, if Chernobyl is actually starting to become a more stable environment, then places like Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be relatively safe to live in now, if what you said is correct.

This may be an uneducated guess, but I suppose the reason why the radiation is becoming less of a problem is because the environment keeps absorbing most of the radiation so it does not become nearly as deadly as if an individual got directly affected by radioactive waste. It pretty much spreads out, so to say. Still, I may be wrong on this, since I have not read that much about radioactivity and such.

[Seranthor]

A pointless atrocity. There was no need to nuke Japan, they were already willing to surrender. If you think otherwise, you've fallen to the lies of the victors. There was no need for the nukes. None. It was all a show of power towards Russia.

North Korea won't be able to bomb anyone anywhere. Modern missile defenses will pick up their shitty rocket in no time.

They were already willing to surrender you say? Then why didn't they when asked? Potsdam was on 26 July, the first nuke wasn't used until 11 days later... certainly that was more than enough time to read and decide to ignore it (like they did).

[Lakrin]

It certainly is a fascinating topic. Might read up on it more at some point. =)

Well, if Chernobyl is actually starting to become a more stable environment, then places like Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be relatively safe to live in now, if what you said is correct.

This may be an uneducated guess, but I suppose the reason why the radiation is becoming less of a problem is because the environment keeps absorbing most of the radiation so it does not become nearly as deadly as if an individual got directly affected by radioactive waste. It pretty much spreads out, so to say. Still, I may be wrong on this, since I have not read that much about this.

I feel like I need to correct myself - some areas of Chernobyl are safe to visit. Some of them still have questionable levels of radiation, and some of them have been dropped to outright negligible levels.

I think your analysis is exactly correct. Bombs produce radioactive dust and debris which is able to spread out. While that sounds horrible (and is), it actually spreads the load of radioactive damage over a larger area, making it quicker to decay to negligible levels.

[Åmbulance]

They were already willing to surrender you say? Then why didn't they when asked? Potsdam was on 26 July, the first nuke wasn't used until 11 days later... certainly that was more than enough time to read and decide to ignore it (like they did).

That's all people have is maybes. Maybe they were going to surrender, no one knows for sure. And to state it as fact, it purely idiotic. They had ample time, they never responded.

[Deleted]

That's all people have is maybes. Maybe they were going to surrender, no one knows for sure. And to state it as fact, it purely idiotic. They had ample time, they never responded.

I agree that all we have is maybes, but during war, and on a national level decisionmaking 11 days is no ample time.

[Åmbulance]

I agree that all we have is maybes, but during war, and on a national level decisionmaking 11 days is no ample time.

It's during a war, in which both sides were still having casualties. 11 days i think would be enough time. Maybe our goverment felt they were stalling, for what who knows. But like we agreed upon, way to many maybes, to really be informed enough.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I feel like I need to correct myself - some areas of Chernobyl are safe to visit. Some of them still have questionable levels of radiation, and some of them have been dropped to outright negligible levels.

I think your analysis is exactly correct. Bombs produce radioactive dust and debris which is able to spread out. While that sounds horrible (and is), it actually spreads the load of radioactive damage over a larger area, making it quicker to decay to negligible levels.

Well, as you said, since nuclear waste in places like Chernobyl can be more concentrated in areas than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it takes much longer for it to decay, so I think you did not really make a mistake here. =P

Yeah. I mean, take the sun for example. In its current state it will keep burning for several, several, several million years, but if you were able to spread all the sun's atoms and molecules out by making it explode, it would not even last a fraction of its estimated lifespan. So by that logic, concentration would seem to matter quite a bit in regards to radiation levels, as well.

[Easo]

What I think?
Well well, i would get banned if I said what I think.
Though most of it is about OP, because I am getting REALY angry due to the frequency this topic keeps popping up...

[Åmbulance]

What I think?
Well well, i would get banned if I said what I think.
Though most of it is about OP, becasue I am getting REALY angry due to the frequency this topic keeps popping up...

He's created atleast 2 of these same threads. One might ask the OP why he keeps starting them?

[ares1023]

Everything is easier to evaluate in hindsight, but it is impossible to know whether or not the un-chosen path would have produced a better outcome. Fact is that the bombings are history now, there is nothing you can do but contemplate and learn. Personally, I think the bombings were of course an atrocious act, but so was the attack on Pearl Harbor. I don't condone killing in any fashion, wars are caused by corrupt politicians in selfish endeavors (greed) and people have to learn to not act in the spur of the moment (revenge) so much, but rather be calculated and humane.

Also, I know the U.S. has done some pretty fucked up shit, but it is not like other countries haven't done worse or similar (while it may not equal the use of atomic bombs). The U.S. will always be put under the microscope for everything, and Americans are just gonna have to learn to deal with it and act accordingly (hopefully justly lol). You can contemplate all you want on "if's and but's", but you cannot simply say it would have been better one way or the other since you can't predict it. Fact is that while the U.S. likes to stick their noses where they don't belong, it could be argued that inaction to certain events that may not directly effect you is just as bad or worse than doing something.

[Palinn]

Instant death by nuclear bomb is a lot more humane that dropping thousands of incendiary bombs and burning a bunch of people to death.

Try reading Hiroshima by John Hersey. Not everyone had an "instant death" nor would many see the bombings as "humane".

[Ult92]

Also, why would the Soviet Union not attack? It was weakened, yes, but only comparatively to its original size and power. It still had enough to cover Western Europe with ease and there would've been virtually no one to counter them.

You seem to take a very, very realist view of international politics. You assume that just because a nation has power, and others have a dearth relative to it, that that nation WILL invade. Not everyone holds the realpolitik view. There's also the liberal and constructivist lenses.

FDR was very much help one of the latter two views. He saw the Stalin and the Soviet Union as a rational state making choices just as any other state would. He didn't see them as some existential threat that was absolutely decide to roll over the rest of Europe. This is in many respects why some say FDR "gave up" Poland and the rest of EE to the Soviets. He understood the USSR mindset; "we must have Eastern Europe as a buffer zone from Germany." It is hard to fault them for thinking this because of the invasions they endured.

It was Truman that shifted this dynamic from a relationship between two rational self-interest states to the so-called "Cold War" and belief the Soviet Union posed an existential threat.

[Bigbamboozal]

The nuclear attacks on Japan in WW2 were a necessity. An invasion of main land Japan would have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers and millions of Japanese civilians.

You have to understand, until we gave into the Japanese demand to not execute the Emperor for war crimes, the entire population of Japan was willing do die with him.
The Japanese started that war, we ended it as humanely as possible.

Also, the incendiary bombs we dropped on other Japanese cities killed and destroyed more than the nukes did. The nukes just did it faster and more humanely for the most part.


Now, if the DPRK used nukes, it would not be to end a war. It would be to kill as many people as possible.

Holy crap, you actually believe the pure bullplop you just pooped?
First of all, if you hadn't been supplying BOTH sides, maybe you wouldn't have been bit in the ass. 2, maybe after you deliver a demand to surrender you should allow people sufficient time to react before 'humanely killing everyone'
3: you're just fooling yourself about humane shit. If I melt your mother in a microwave, is that humane?
Get a clue.
4 as per usual I see excuses and propaganda, bending the truth to fit you and yours. The raw truth there is your president wanted to try them out. That's why it happened. Don't even pretend you were good guys. Don't even pretend you were humane. Don't even pretend those were military targets.
There was NO HONOR it what was done.

Lets make no bones about it, you and yours are the ONLY people on earth to have EVER used a nuke, and the manner in which it was used, and on what targets, is not only shameful, but can only be described as an action by monsters.

Sure that nazis were evil, killed people a lot, but to pretend your bunch were any different is just fucking hilarious.
Get off your high horse, b/c when you strip away the chest thumping and the bullshit, all you did was kill people. It wasn't cool, it wasn't deserved by the ordinary people who farm. they sure as fuck didn't want to die for the emperor, get a fucking clue, would YOU die for Obama?!?!??!?!?!?!?!

Attach all the current catch words like 'humane' all you like, but it's just a bunch of bullshit and everyone knows it.
Buddy, I think what you and yours did is the scummiest thing I have ever heard, and the way you just presented it, makes me fucking sick.
Stop spin-doctoring the reality, and the reality is that your country commited the worst crime on earth, ever.

I think you should fucking know, in your heart, you and the actions of your country are unacceptable to the rest of the world, you are a blight on humanity, your attitude and policies bite you in the ass all the time, Boston, those kids, where are they from, then use google, wiki the history of the country where they are from. How much you want to bet your country has a rich history of bombing them to shit?

From top to bottom, you guys are full of shit.

Want an interesting lesson? Wiki list of terror attacks in america, it starts in 1800 and goes to current. Read through them. How many are 'really' terror attacks and how many of them are a molative cocktail through a window or ONE tweaked nut with a gun? The VAST MAJORITY are over religion, and involve one or UNDER 4 people. In fact, in the last 20 years, other then 911 and boston, NONE were full fledged terror attacks. Yet look at your country ramp up their 'anti-terror laws', weapons of mass destruction? Terror? The only assholes I can see who own and carry out terror plots is.....you.
Crawl in a hole and die.

Use received infraction.

[DarkstarG]

Holy crap, you actually believe the pure bullplop you just pooped?
First of all, if you hadn't been supplying BOTH sides, maybe you wouldn't have been bit in the ass. 2, maybe after you deliver a demand to surrender you should allow people sufficient time to react before 'humanely killing everyone'
3: you're just fooling yourself about humane shit. If I melt your mother in a microwave, is that humane?
Get a clue.
4 as per usual I see excuses and propaganda, bending the truth to fit you and yours. The raw truth there is your president wanted to try them out. That's why it happened. Don't even pretend you were good guys. Don't even pretend you were humane. Don't even pretend those were military targets.
There was NO HONOR it what was done.

Lets make no bones about it, you and yours are the ONLY people on earth to have EVER used a nuke, and the manner in which it was used, and on what targets, is not only shameful, but can only be described as an action by monsters.

Sure that nazis were evil, killed people a lot, but to pretend your bunch were any different is just fucking hilarious.
Get off your high horse, b/c when you strip away the chest thumping and the bullshit, all you did was kill people. It wasn't cool, it wasn't deserved by the ordinary people who farm. they sure as fuck didn't want to die for the emperor, get a fucking clue, would YOU die for Obama?!?!??!?!?!?!?!

Attach all the current catch words like 'humane' all you like, but it's just a bunch of bullshit and everyone knows it.
Buddy, I think what you and yours did is the scummiest thing I have ever heard, and the way you just presented it, makes me fucking sick.
Stop spin-doctoring the reality, and the reality is that your country commited the worst crime on earth, ever.

I think you should fucking know, in your heart, you and the actions of your country are unacceptable to the rest of the world, you are a blight on humanity, your attitude and policies bite you in the ass all the time, Boston, those kids, where are they from, then use google, wiki the history of the country where they are from. How much you want to bet your country has a rich history of bombing them to shit?

From top to bottom, you guys are full of shit.

Want an interesting lesson? Wiki list of terror attacks in america, it starts in 1800 and goes to current. Read through them. How many are 'really' terror attacks and how many of them are a molative cocktail through a window or ONE tweaked nut with a gun? The VAST MAJORITY are over religion, and involve one or UNDER 4 people. In fact, in the last 20 years, other then 911 and boston, NONE were full fledged terror attacks. Yet look at your country ramp up their 'anti-terror laws', weapons of mass destruction? Terror? The only assholes I can see who own and carry out terror plots is.....you.
Crawl in a hole and die.

Use received infraction.

Funny stuff.....when the truth comes out people can't handle it. If this country would just mind it's own business there would be so much less hate from around the world. For all the good we do when engaging in humanitarian efforts all the government meddling basically makes all the good we do go away. We have enough problems right here in the USA and on top of that we are broke. Why should we be elsewhere worrying about other countries when we can't even take care of our own? Shouldn't we start getting the mess we have here straightened out first before we worry about anyone else? Plus we are broke!