Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Deja Thoris]

I have all the credibility in the universe as far as my guild is concerned. The only one who doesn't have any credibility is you and the other clowns on forums.

Well, in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king, no?

S As for his SS uptime I'm not surprised. He spends half the fight not tanking the boss and killing the adds for more stacks anyway. He probably wasn't throwing it up when killing adds.

Yeah its not like theres AoE dmg there and absorbs aren't useful. Smart tanks throw it on the other tank at a tank swop. It's part of what makes a good tank a good tank. 100k absorb every 5 seconds with vengeance is not trivial.

If you'll notice the first attempt we had prim to 3%. It was for all intents and purposes a one shot. You people just need LITERAL everything and take everything so fucking seriously.

Of course I'm literal. One shot means you killed the boss. You wiped. Dunno what to say to this, a wipe is a wipe. I mean, did the boss kill himself, drop loot and open the door to dark animus when you wiped?
I'm not taking this seriously. Judging from the amount of emotion in your posts, you are. I'm merely correcting inaccuracies since I'd like to think the majority of the raiding community prefer facts over fiction.

It was vastly easier with the prot paladin, we got further with the prot paladin than the monk and it was much easier to heal the prot paladin.

You lasted for 7 minutes + with the monk multiple times. Your kill came in 5:50. Thats not because of the pala, he did less dmg than the monk. The kill came because the dps got their shit together and made good use of the buffs.

We know better. Your just ignorant.

You're, not "your". Thats irony!

Seriously, when everyone else is telling you you're wrong and you are the only one insisting you are right then there are two options.
- You are wrong
- Everyone else is wrong
Now since everyone else telling you that you are wrong is more skilled at the game than you , where does the balance of probability lie?

The post above mine explained appropriate talent use (lights hammer vs. holy prism) - What do we know anyway?

[Volitar]

Other than Vanilla/BC Warrior I think MOP Pally is the strongest tank we've seen.

[NeverStop]

Pallies are strong this tier because SoTR mitigates large, predictable spikes of damage (Triple Puncture, Talon Rake) that can't be consistently mitigated by other tanks' AM abilities. Pallies are also the only tanks that stack Haste (BrM also does to a certain extent), which makes their damage scale so much more with Vengeance. Their raid utility (Battle Healer, Devo Aura, Hand of Sac, BoP) is just icing on the cake.

If gear isn't an issue (any guild that does multiple normal clears week 1 to funnel gear), there are no weaknesses of double Prot Pally tanking comp this tier.

[matthias9742]

It does seem like your monk friend could use some practice GL. his uptime on shuffle was only 48%. Even if he wasnt using it when he was OT, its still best practice to make sure your get your shuffle timer way up there so you can save chi for purifying when it swaps back to you. Also SCK being one his most used abilities is not that great as by the time oozes are getting to him they will be absorbed by the boss a moment later.

[Zonex]

@Neverstop

Stop deluding yourself. Pallies can mitigate large predictable melee hits with SoTR? Monks can do the same baseline with Stagger, Expel harm, Dampen harm, Zen Meditation. All of which are just as if not more powerful.

Paladins are the only tank class to stack haste, however Brewmasters are the only class to stack Crit, AND use agility over Stamina. Who do you think will scale better? Raid utility (Statue Guards, Avert Harm, TL, and high mobility) are just icing on the cake too.

Review your bias towards tanks, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Halifax]

My raid is lucky enough that our tanks are Monk/Paladin, and honestly, we're often finding that we're both grossly OP, in different ways. There is some really cool shit that I can pull on my Monk (using Zen med to eat a decapitate and then fort brewing the debuff for hilarious amounts of vengeance, or stacking stagger with other cooldowns to take hits that would hit other tanks for over 1mil like it was nothing). While the Paladin is amazing in different ways like being able to single-tank some fights that would otherwise not be single-tankable without an army of Holy/Ret paladins behind you, or the really impressive amounts of healing they can put it.

[Celar]

Am I the only one thats finding this teir to be a huge cock block if you dont have a palading tank?

So many fights are completely changed, and made 10x easier if you have a prot pala, its becoming such a joke trying to compete with other raid groups just because of this.

For example, Horridon you can completly ignore the tank swap, and the pala will do so much healing hes basically a 3rd tank
Tortos can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. again huge healing to the raid
Megaera can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. the pala basically does the same healing as an actual healer (lol)
Durumu can be 1 tanked 2 healed with the use of bops and again... stupidly high raid healing.
Iron Qon once again can be 1 tanked with bops and extra raid healing.


Am I completely missing something? Are prot palas really not what they seem? Why havnt blizzard nerfed them yet?


I feel like our 522 prot warrior should just re-roll to his 500 ilvl prot paladin and probably be a way better tank, then we can cheese all the encounters like every other guild.

He should reroll Paladin, 100% correct yes.

Also, to add: on many fights, Light's Hammer heals as much as a tranquility every time it's used, and its just a drop and forgett about it ability, not channeled. Since it scales with AP/Vengeance, it heals more than our Holy Palas Hammer on half the fights.

[Monstermash]

Well I guess it's all right if you need *snicker* single target threat... it's really only good for Ret. If you want a useful 1min HoT get Light's Hammer, it heals *everyone* in melee AND aggros adds, it doesn't get much more useful than that. If you want burst healing, Prism is up three times as often and hits instantly instead of ten seconds later.

Nobody adjusts their playstyle around threat. Threat is a non-issue. You do it for the damage. I take it you don't know the difference? SoE is tremendous amounts of damage on single target. You'd be silly not to use it on fights where it's appropriate. The three talents each have their uses. It'd be wise of you to learn where they're applicable instead of making some uneducated snarky comment.

[Lumineus]

OK, how's this then? As tank, it's not your job to do damage. I wish Blizzard would make brutal cuts to Vengeance cap to make this more abundantly clear. Execution Sentence is bad at helping you survive, and it's bad at helping your allies. It's a bad spell for a tank. Period.

[Serendepityz]

pre Mop tanking was just worried about boss position, CD management, and in earlier expansions, threat.

Now we have moved so far best just that, while all that is still there its about min maxing your raids DPS and HPS by using your abilities past the point of K I have threat afk. does it devalue the role of DPS and Healers? not at all. your roles are still very important and needed for the success of raids but don't compare yourself to a monk/pally tank outside of a lol's factor.

[Monstermash]

OK, how's this then? As tank, it's not your job to do damage. I wish Blizzard would make brutal cuts to Vengeance cap to make this more abundantly clear. Execution Sentence is bad at helping you survive, and it's bad at helping your allies. It's a bad spell for a tank. Period.

What you think isn't really important. Blizzard has stated numerous times that tank dps matters. So yeah, you're wrong. Moving on.

[Deleted]

OK, how's this then? As tank, it's not your job to do damage. I wish Blizzard would make brutal cuts to Vengeance cap to make this more abundantly clear. Execution Sentence is bad at helping you survive, and it's bad at helping your allies. It's a bad spell for a tank. Period.

I agree that tank dmg at this moment is insane , but i disagree with fact that tanks shouldn't do damage.
We used to have that before and you would see crappy avoidance/stamina build that would force such passive and boring gameplay in which the tanks only job would be to pop his major cd's on certain points in the fight.

The problem with prot paladins atm is that mostly everything about them is broken .Haste builds not only provide more dps but also more survival compared to other valid builds, the damage they do due to haste and vengeance is transfered to healing and their utility is still the same making them the best tank atm.

[Iso]

Problem is simply vengance scaling. It's supposed to make threat a non issue as dps gets higher etc etc, yet it someone makes a protection paladin into a powerhouse healer aswell. Battle healer, Hammer, prism, sacred shield and whatnot all get some seriously silly numbers at high attack power levels.

It does jackshit for me as a DK, not a damn thing for raid utility or my own survivabilty. It's just distrubing to watch a protection paladin throw down a hammer on almost every Meagera rampage and churn out the same numbers as some healer to an extent, meanwhile I can sacrefice my own defenses for a minor lil bubble that soaks a fraction of the damage, once every 3 light's hammers. Best part is, they even changed AMZ to scale with strength over attack power cause vengance made it too good z.z

[Viromand]

Problem is simply vengance scaling. It's supposed to make threat a non issue as dps gets higher etc etc, yet it someone makes a protection paladin into a powerhouse healer aswell. Battle healer, Hammer, prism, sacred shield and whatnot all get some seriously silly numbers at high attack power levels.

It does jackshit for me as a DK, not a damn thing for raid utility or my own survivabilty. It's just distrubing to watch a protection paladin throw down a hammer on almost every Meagera rampage and churn out the same numbers as some healer to an extent, meanwhile I can sacrefice my own defenses for a minor lil bubble that soaks a fraction of the damage, once every 3 light's hammers. Best part is, they even changed AMZ to scale with strength over attack power cause vengance made it too good z.z

This and the fact that SotR also does dmg and increase your healing with WoG all with 1 spell. Almost all other classes have to sacrifice dmg for avoidance. But sill HoP getting rid of various stacks is one of the reason you can solo tank a boss, and getting high and constant amounts of vengeance. Thats the problem they are the best vengeance scaling tank class, and have HoP aswell.

Still dont forget if you have a healpala who lets any other tank solotank the boss the dmg taken(with selfheal) is almost the same on all tanks.

[fangless]

Thing is, tanks doing damage doesn't change how they play. They get free AP for doing nothing, and they don't go with a full DPS rotation.

Tanks are topping meters on various fights for just being around and taking hits. It's no more fun of a gameplay style, they still have to use their defensive mechanics not to die, but the side effect is #1 DPS -_-

[Nuckels]

Thing is, tanks doing damage doesn't change how they play. They get free AP for doing nothing, and they don't go with a full DPS rotation.

Tanks are topping meters on various fights for just being around and taking hits. It's no more fun of a gameplay style, they still have to use their defensive mechanics not to die, but the side effect is #1 DPS -_-

Tanks in 10man on purpose take extra damage like 3 stacks on jikun to min/max vengeance to optimise dps, its not just doing it the normal way and getting the full dps as a bonus.

[Deleted]

Thing is, tanks doing damage doesn't change how they play. They get free AP for doing nothing, and they don't go with a full DPS rotation.

Tanks are topping meters on various fights for just being around and taking hits. It's no more fun of a gameplay style, they still have to use their defensive mechanics not to die, but the side effect is #1 DPS -_-

Yeah, tanks dont do anything to do damage. They dont even do rotation, it is like automatic thorns aura. Nothing in terms on tank individual skill or what not.

[Monstermash]

Thing is, tanks doing damage doesn't change how they play. They get free AP for doing nothing, and they don't go with a full DPS rotation.

Tanks are topping meters on various fights for just being around and taking hits. It's no more fun of a gameplay style, they still have to use their defensive mechanics not to die, but the side effect is #1 DPS -_-

Except good tanks know how to purposely take extra damage to gain extra vengeance without actually ever being in risk of dying. To do that you have to have an intimate knowledge of your class and the encounter. You have to know how much damage you would take from the boss mechanic you are trying to cheese and what cooldown or active mitigation ability is appropriate for the situation. Communication with your healers is key too. Some forethought is required because you can't just decide on a whim to cheese or it may end disastrously because you weren't prepared or your healers weren't prepared and you'd look like a fool. Average tanks with lesser confidence in their own skill and lesser understanding of their class abilities and raid mechanics would not be able to take advantage of that like a veteran tank would.

[Viromand]

Thing is, tanks doing damage doesn't change how they play. They get free AP for doing nothing, and they don't go with a full DPS rotation.

Tanks are topping meters on various fights for just being around and taking hits. It's no more fun of a gameplay style, they still have to use their defensive mechanics not to die, but the side effect is #1 DPS -_-

I have to disagree, as a druid tank with dps cooldowns, I change when to use them depending on how much dmg im getting or if our raid needs dps.

Btw, if you have 100k vengeance(in tot you normally have more) its like with any other DPS having a perfect rotation gives you alot more dmg. And as a druid its about 20-40k dps at 100k vengeance depending on how you play.
they are not super hard but so arent most of the dps rotations.

Same goes for paladins, the rotations changes a bit with bloodlust aswell. But its not like you can stand there and push two buttons as a pala and do 200k dps, you cant take every hit to gain even more vengeance.

I personally think its fun to do dmg, but i must agree on some fights its just insane. I mean as a druidgoing back to DS, some of your mitigatuion procced from dps back then but its not the same.
Im a tank since BC and my first priority is always take as less dmg as possible, then going trying to do that by maximizing my dps(has always been like this just a bigger impact now), and if we lack of dmg(even after a boss is played good no deaths amost no fails) then ill try to see where you can get a bit more vengeance by not taking much more dmg. Or trying to take even less with the help of the other tanks and replacing a healer with a dps( this is rarely the case cause even on heroic MOST fights are not about max dps, if played correctly they will die(not saying you dont ahve to max out you dps, but 80% of the wipes/deaths are not berserk or lack of dps related).

To clear up you cant say all tanks are nr1 due to vengeance, if you have a tank that is high in meters every fight, its because he is good at doing dmg, or your dps suck, or cause thats how the fight works.

Having a good dps tank doesnt make him a good tank.

Tanks in 10man on purpose take extra damage like 3 stacks on jikun to min/max vengeance to optimise dps, its not just doing it the normal way and getting the full dps as a bonus.

they also do that in 25m. Taking a third stack from talon rake in hc or nh is not that big of a dps increase the dot gives you most of you vengeance on that fight. And on hc you sometimes ahve to take three but still the extra raiddps both tanks do with 1 extra rake is so minor due to the dmg buff on the dps.

And lets not forget, to get vengeance you have to take dmg. On a two tank fight vengeance it may even drop from a tank. On fight where you onetank it your tank will be topdps with mages warlocks or rogues. And i quess it was not intended on so many, but they dont want to change it cause raids would have to go with new tactics on a boss they farm for weeks now.

You want to avoid taking dmg, well on most fights you do for the first times. And sometimes vengeance is a pain in the ass for tanks after swapping. Im so glad we have a healpala for hand of salvation.

There are a few fights were tanks are nr1, but on most fights they should be a bit behing, or equal to the lower dps classes, but mages warlocks and rogues are almost always higher in dps. On heroic I would rather take less dmg and survive than getting 40k vengeance, on most fight its not the dmg that matters, well not the maybe 10-15k dps i get for a short period of time.

I think they have to nerf the lights hammer, its way to powerful, still this is due to the way bosses are designed this tier. Megaera, qon, leishen, and its good on other fights. with a disc a tankpala and a tank druid you can easily heal the rampages alone on nhc.

[Lethora]

Well it's not that big nerf. Let's take example 100k hps from prot pala (which is high but not even close to impossible). With lower hps the nerf is even lower.

100k hps -> 25 % of healing done is battle healer -> 25k hps from battle healer.

Battle healer goes from 30 % to 20 % which is a 33 % nerf, which means that after the patch

25k hps from battle healer (5.2) -> 0.66*25k hps = 16.5k hps (5.3)

So protadins hps goes from 100k to 100k - (25k - 16.5) = 91.5k hps.

It's less than 10 %. Hell, holy paladins nerf is close to same nerf in overall hps. I won't do the math and holy pala nerf is propably not that large but anyway, the nerf is not that bad.

I don't know where are you getting those numbers. I didn't reach 100k hps on Stone Guards heroic when I was tanking 2 dogs for 90% of time. Highest I got was around 60k hps. And that is a fight where you get your damage buffed by the mechanics.
Usual prot paladin hps is around 30-40k. I went and checked logs from this week's 25H Jin'rokh kill of our guild. I did 29k hps, and got ranked as 141 on WoL on dps. I didn't run Battle Healer for that fight. With that glyph I could have around 40k hps or so. But we don't have any healing issues apart from Lightning Storm herps derps.
Furthermore, I went to last week's log from HoF 10H, and checked Mel'jarak which was solotanked by me. Guess what? 60k hps while doing 711k dps (and that is far from being good number since I didn't realise that things would drop that fast and mistimed wings/HA).
People are pulling numbers out of their asses, really.