Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Deleted]

Any tank combo is strong. But having a paladin as one tank, having a paladin as the second tank would be my last choice. Maybe on some fights like animus a paladin/paladin works better than a paladin/x. However looking at the tier as a whole, paladin/paladin will hurt you more on bosses than paladin/any other tank.
It is just simple as that.

Paladins are as you mention great at primordius, mostly because how well HoPur and DP works on that fights, aswell as how well SS scales with haste buffs.

Though for lei-shen hc, if you have a monk doing 50-100k more dps than a prot paladin, there is a great difference in the player skill between those players.

And which fight requires 2 bopers? Horridon HC is doable with 1 non-tank paladin, durumu HC is doable with with 1 non-tank paladin, Iron Qon HC is doable with 1 non-tank paladin. So really, which boss requires 2 bopers?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

So really, which boss requires 2 bopers?

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=56717 / http://www.wowdb.com/npcs/56717-hoptallus

spawns many Boppers.

[Deleted]

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=56717 / http://www.wowdb.com/npcs/56717-hoptallus

spawns many Boppers.

Gotta admit, that made me laugh Though that fight is many boppers, far more than you can have even in 25 man raid.

[Viromand]

The problem with balance between tanks is not pure numbers. Tanks are quite balanced in that regard. The issue arises when paladin AM and utility is favored for ALL fights in a given tier. Paladins can plan well for burst damage (a LOT of bosses this tier) without popping a major cd; Druids and in a way DK's cannot. Adding in their utility and perhaps a bit of scewed balance with numbers (I do not know), makes paladins the most wanted tank.

Dks can stack their shield before big burst.

And lets not forget all burst dmg you are talking about that SotR is physical. Now look at druids armor its not like druids have no physical mitigation, so with SotR the pala takes about 10-15% less dmg with SotR active while a druid jsut stands there, if i use boneshield or barkskin i would be almost be on the same lvl. Ok have to use a 1 min cd, still i didnt even waste any rage so i can heal myself back up after the hit

Well lets see burst on bosses. Jinrokh is far better as a druid due to high dodge cause the burst dmg is magic and procs on hit. Horridon physical burst nice for pala. council, megaera, primordius, iron qon twins all have almost 0 physical burst. Jikun no problems for a druid infact a DK is a bit better than a pala on that fight if you have good shield usage. Tortos is special, since you can dodge the attack, the snapping bite shoudl never kill a druid if you dont dodge it, not nh nor hc. And im not talking about druids that have 40-50% of SD uptime, cause a pala that cant use his SotR or has crappy uptimes on hie Shield will get bursted even harder than a druid.

Sacred shield scales too strong with vengeance thats the problem, its a talent that is mandatory for protpala. Makes them really strong in 1 tank scenarios, still all bosses that can be one tanked (and actually benefits the raid) can be one tanked by any class with a hpala.

[Deleted]

One big thing to note, especially when looking at the less experienced tank, a paladin can miss his SotR, a druid can't really miss his armor.

Though yeah, as you mention, Sacred Shield scales a bit to well with vengeance (as do shield barrier). Still as you mention, paladins are far from the strongest tank on several fights. So what is the goal several people have here? To make paladins less good on the fights that they are (arguably) the strongest tank, and than be far behind on the fights that they are not. The only thing a nerf to paladins would accomplish would be to make monks complete god mode above other tanks. Wouldn't the more logical path of action be to make warriors and dks more viable?

[Viromand]

Sacred shield is buff that costs no mana no holypower just 1 gcd, it scales with haste and vengeance. PLus it can be placed on others, after tankswapping for example.
And Sbar is the secondary ragedumb for magicdmg, DOTs or big hits which costs rage and you need to sacrifice maybe even a Sblock. Which will result in lower dmg.

So Sbar scaling extremly good is fine but Sacred shield shouldnt cause you also gain more at certain haste points, and it costs you nothing and it is so easy to have a high uptime cause its free

[Deleted]

Sacred Shield does not really gain you more at certain haste points, as long as you reapply it. The breakpoints are only presuming that you let the buff go out, so in practice they do not matter.

Though yeah, SS scales a bit to well with vengeance. (Think the haste scaling is fine tbh, just the numbers needs to be lower).

[Deleted]

This might have been more or less true (at least, more true) as it stood at the beginning of the xpac, but it's certainly not the case anymore. At least not when you start taking into account secondary mechanics like Seal of Insight, Sacred Shield, SBar, Bloodworms, etc.
There are also mechanics that are harder to math out but make some tanks stand out a lot more in AoE scenarios, mainly talking about monk statue/revenge spam there.

I'm not even touching the subject that tank DPS is. It's far too volatile and I don't think it's solvable this xpac. There either needs to be DPS incentives for dodge/parry/mastery for plate tanks, or a simple removal of tank gear (and new haste/crit mechanics for DKs/Warriors)

Mechanically, only SD (druids in general tbh, if you ask me t&c should have been the main AM ability instead of RNG-SD), and to a lesser extent SBar, truely need revamps, everything else is working more or less fine, scaling aside (but the scaling issues are mainly tied to vengeance mechanics, it's not necessarily as simple as "this spell has too high of a coefficient"). Maybe you could include DKs as well who might need an additional pro-active ability in order to bring them more in line with other tanks, but I don't feel like it's really needed nor achievable while retaining the feel of the class.

I agree with this. So many people in this thread mistake a a Tier of bosses designed so that one class stands out - Paladins of all specs. So sure, when you compare a Paladin tank to any other tank and think of Hand of w/e with a Clemency on top of it, the Paladin tank will look stronger. I agree that their self healing is really high and maybe a bit too high. But if you removed the Hand of w/e from a Prot Paladin, said Paladin wouldn't look as strong all of a sudden. Dps wise both Monk and Guardian can do more.

So here's what I'd like to see changed:

1. Rework the stats for DK's and Warrior tanks, it's stupid to have 3 tanking classes using dps stats and 2 who don't, it creates a gap in dps and threat.

2. Fix the RNG that Guardians have when using Savage Defense (being punished purely due to RNG suck) and perhaps add something to mitigate magical dmg.

3. Adjust the scaling of Haste on Prot Paladins, imo it scales a bit too well atm.

4. Stop making so many encounters that can be cheesed with fucking Paladins in the raid - this is my main issue tbh.

[Viromand]

@ firefly: Sacred shield works like a hot so the more hast you have the faster the actual absorb procs. Its a 30 second that "ticks" every 5 seconds. With more haste it ticks more often. With 12668 Hast you gain two additional ticks, so that make the absorb proc alot faster. Dont know the exact number but its a huge difference if you get a shield every 5 or 4 maybe even every 3.5 seconds. Add that to the effect haste already has on a pala and the incredible amount of scaling on SS.

@mione: You dont even need new mechanics. Give Warrior a mechanic like druid(cause their AM and rageheal/absorbs) that lets you gain more rage with crits. And DKs already scale with haste, but not enough one problem beeing their mastery is too strong, I mean an you can literly have a 100% EH gain as due to that mastery cause it stacks. but the main problem is, DK is the worst vengeance scaling class so that need a fix too.
For druids making T&C block all physcial attack(like talon rake) and not only next meleehit. And the armor increase will help a bit too. And lets not forget that Druids have the highest selfheal ability in the game atm, not counting LoH here.

@danishgirl: I agree on everything except the magicmitigation on druids. Magic mitigation is fine on all tank classes.
And the HoP thing, Monks and paladins are good solotanks due to their incredible scaling on everything. Other tanks can solo tank too but dont scale as much.
If you take a closer look at vengeance scaling.

Druid scaling. FR and T&C, and maybe NV cause it scales with dmg.
DK scaling: Bloodworms (not sure)
Protwarrior: Sbar. (no selfhealing that scales with vengeance only stam)
Monk: Statue, guard, healtalents.
paladin: Sacred shield, SoI, BH, Lights hammer(way too much) infact all 90 talents, WoG.

Now look at secondary stats.

Protwarrior: They do nothing.
Dks: faster runes.
Druid: crit gives you more rage so does haste. having two rage AMs and 1 rage selfheal you need alot of rage.
Monks: crit gives you more dodge procs. haste more energie reg, easier to manage shuffle and AMs

Paladins: Haste lets your SS tick faster, lowers the cooldown on HP generating abilities more AM or WoGs. heals you more due to faster attacking with SoI, plus more heal with BH.

SO a small adjustement to SS would be just fine.

[Deleted]

Sacred Shield does not really gain you more at certain haste points, as long as you reapply it. The breakpoints are only presuming that you let the buff go out, so in practice they do not matter.

Though yeah, SS scales a bit to well with vengeance. (Think the haste scaling is fine tbh, just the numbers needs to be lower).

Haven't you gotten bored yet ?
You call people out for not knowing the class, yet yourself keep making basic mistakes.
Like this one..
shield/armor and i giggled alot when you called mione shit... (one of the best, if not the best dk in the world)

I'm sure i could find more bloopers, but really, its getting old, you cant hide it anymore, pala is OP, we all know.. :P

[Deleted]

Haven't you gotten bored yet ?
You call people out for not knowing the class, yet yourself keep making basic mistakes.
Like this one..
shield/armor and i giggled alot when you called mione shit... (one of the best, if not the best dk in the world)

I'm sure i could find more bloopers, but really, its getting old, you cant hide it anymore, pala is OP, we all know.. :P

What mistakes did he make? Someone was implying that there are haste "break points" in respect of SS - GIDfly simply said that this is only really true is you let SS fall off: not aware that anyone actual lets it drop off when they are tanking.

Also: my 2c. Alot of problems i think were created with the whole vengence shabang - though this was noted pretty much when they were introduced way back at the end of cata:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...hanges-are-odd

[Deleted]

@Viromand

I know exactly how SS works. I was pretty much the first person that even mentioned that SS scales with haste for paladins since I have been stacking haste since beta (unlike most paladins).

My point was that the scaling is linear. You said "Sacred shield shouldnt cause you also gain more at certain haste points".
And what I was trying to say is that each haste point contributes as much as the next. The ticks can go from 4.5 seconds to 4.49 seconds to 4.48 seconds etc. There are not magic breakpoints when it jumps from 4.5 to 4 instantly.

If we are gonna talk about certain breakpoints that would be when the tick speed of SS becomes a multiplicant of a boss swing timer (i.e. boss swing timer is 1.5s, then having SS on 3/4.5s would be considered 'breakpoints', however does not work as well in practice as a lot of bosses delay their swing timers for casting spells, so in practice nearly no boss got a 1.5s swing timer *cough* empress *cough*

Dont really think you should mention BH on paladin scaling, as first off, a lot of paladins do not use it, secondly, it do. It does nothing for the paladin himself, but also, it is not that strong. BH scales with increased damage, but the healing is so small that it feels like mentioning. If we are on that level mentioning that we should also mention that a monks chi wave scale with vengeance. You also have to remember that other abilities doesnt scale directly with vengeance but similarly, a.k.a. high vengeance = high damage taken, some spells also scale with damage taken without scaling with vengeance like DKs DS.

Vengeance is also scaled in a way, that the next tier, bosses deal more damage (naturally) and you get more vengeance and heal more, but your hp also increased. So maybe you had 500k hp last tier and did 25k hps. Now you have 700k this tier and do 35k hps. A lot of classes have abilities that scale with HP. So while that is not directly comparable with vengeance scaling, that cannot be ignored, as your HP naturally progresses forward as you gain more gear, by the same logic that vengeance increases when you get more gear since you are likely to do stronger bosses hitting you for more.

It is not the same scaling system, but it scales in a similar matter, so stuff like DKs RT or US scales directly with HP or a druids LotP or a warriors Victory Rush.

While I agree with what you say, simply only mentioning vengeance scaling is a bit to narrow since there are more to it. Aswell as mentioning everything from one class, you should really mention everything for every class or not mention everything for the first class in first place.

---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 09:26 AM ----------

What mistakes did he make?

Dont feed the trolls.

[Viromand]

Ok BH not selfhealing shouldnrt be in the list. I listed all the effects that lets you take less dmg or heals you. And almost everything a paladin has scales with vengeance and haste. Ansd i was just trying to say that paladins are not the best solo tanks cause they have HoP, Paladins just scale so good with vengeance.

Yeah I ment that you SS scales with haste, not the haste breakpoints. DK DS heal scales with incoming dmg, still it doenst scale with vengeance. And I mentioned the chi wave from monks.

Not saying pala ist totaly broken but no one can deny that they are the best vengeance scaling class atm. thats the reason why they are so good on one tank fights.

BH might have been wrong in the list, alot think all the healing a pala does is raidhealing which is BS, but its not totaly crap as you say it is. It saves people, its a single target heal that hits for 30% of your dmg. So a 100k SotR will heal the lowest raidmember for 30k. Thats alot.

It doenst matter if some classes scale with hp, on a one tank bossfight its about vengeance not about hp. Again not saying pala are mandatory or broken and all other tankclasses suck, still paladins are really strong and not only because of HoP, so is monk.

[Deleted]

Yeah, not argueing that paladins scales extremely well (and ss probably scales to well with vengeance). I do not think that SoI or damage scales to well with vengeance though for paladins.

I am on completely the same page as you, just thought that more should be added to the list
However, I would say monks scales extremely aswell. If they scale better or worse is up for debate.

Some classes scale well with vengeance, but another class may scale well with %, the problem is the spells that do not scale at all with either tank hp, boss damage or vengeance.

[Pua]

Quit the rubbish comments. Paladins don't heal themselves more than healers do. Not even close. Theres valid complaints about prots and theres jealous bullshit. Your comment falls into the second category.

I'd recommend looking over some of the parses that the top guilds are putting out and then telling me paladins "don't heal much". If you think that's true, you're sadly deluded. The spec is broken, you all know it, and the developers do, too. The only reason they're not fixing it is because you can't make significant changes in the middle of a tier when guilds have built their tactics around a broken spec; forcing people to relearn an encounter just isn't a solution.

[Prokk]

The spec is broken, you all know it, and the developers do, too.

No. It's not.

[Zreath]

One thing I find interesting people are complaining about all the heals that prot pallys do is have you checked who they are healing? I am the number one target for my heals when I am tanking on my pally. Yes its alot of hps but its hps that my healers dont have to spend on me.

[Deleted]

One thing I find interesting people are complaining about all the heals that prot pallys do is have you checked who they are healing? I am the number one target for my heals when I am tanking on my pally. Yes its alot of hps but its hps that my healers dont have to spend on me.

And you don't think this is a problem on top of your actual active mitigation system?

[Gremory1]

One thing I find interesting people are complaining about all the heals that prot pallys do is have you checked who they are healing? I am the number one target for my heals when I am tanking on my pally. Yes its alot of hps but its hps that my healers dont have to spend on me.

I don't understand why you thought 'I do a huge amount of healing but don't worry, it's only on myself, not others, and I'm the tank' was an argument for why Prot Pallies aren't overpowered at the moment? On many fights prot pallies can nearly match the healers (and on a select few, do more overall healing). That being said, it has been a thing for long enough that guilds without one (like us) could either make an alt gear up or just deal with not having a pally tank and do the fights anyway (what we're doing).

[underdogba]

And you don't think this is a problem on top of your actual active mitigation system?

Other tanks have comparable amounts of mitigation that are not counted as "healing" on meters.

This is completely a semantic issue of convention being misapplied by a superficial misunderstanding of what's going on.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 01:27 PM ----------

I don't understand why you thought 'I do a huge amount of healing but don't worry, it's only on myself, not others, and I'm the tank' was an argument for why Prot Pallies aren't overpowered at the moment? On many fights prot pallies can nearly match the healers (and on a select few, do more overall healing). That being said, it has been a thing for long enough that guilds without one (like us) could either make an alt gear up or just deal with not having a pally tank and do the fights anyway (what we're doing).

DK's are exactly like this too if you look at the proportion on a parse of self-healing vs outside sources.

This thread is more or less the largest assemblage of people who don't understand how to interpret parses in the history of the internet, saying the same tired superficial garbage over and over, seemingly completely unaffected by any of the 20+ pages of previous discussion. This thread is a Groundhog Day from hell for anyone with any understanding of damage input / mitigation mechanics across the classes.