Cloak and Dagger no longer works with shadowdance

[Atrea]

Nobody uses that right now since it's too killing on survivability. Patch is going to change that though.

That's probably why this change is being made.

[Verain]

(unless you actually stealth every 24s on average)?

Heh, now that's a stream I want to see. "The restealther strikes again!"


Edit: "They never see him coming!"

[Evolixe]

Shadowstep would be fine with a 15 second cooldown and Throw applying non-lethals rather than lethals (which is like completely pointless.....)

That would be alright, not too strong, not too weak. Considering we also get nerfed in other places.

[Espe]

Shadowstep would be fine with a 15 second cooldown and Throw applying non-lethals rather than lethals (which is like completely pointless.....)

That would be alright, not too strong, not too weak. Considering we also get nerfed in other places.

This x100000

Not looking forward to our "mobility" next patch. Time to go feral druid for pvp?

[Kuball]

I don't get the nerf to cloak and dagger. I mean was it a little over the top with dance? yeah probably, but we had limited survival and our consistent damage is laughable. Outside of shadow blades and dance rogues are still crap. Now they give us a talent that is worse than shadow step. At least we can use that out of stealth.

[Verain]

So, let me explain the cloak and dagger nerf, briefly.


1)- They think CnD is too strong. I agree with them (I called this out before 5.2).
2)- They want to nerf it. What's a fair nerf? They aren't sure.
3)- They want to redesign it. CnD was a dumb idea, and they aren't sure they will keep it.

So, they could do one of these two things:
1)- Nerf it reasonably, such that it is meant to competitive with the other talents. For instance, it could grant a passive move speed boost in addition to the teleport on open. Or it could reduce snares and roots in same manner- either passive or active, in addition to that. These ideas aren't revolutionary, and mostly they copy other abilities. If they go this path, a bunch of rogues will likely end up with this relatively balanced talent. Then they will miss it if they redesign it in a year, with 6.0. Remember that they never actually had an idea ready to go here- the rogue forum supplied Burst of Speed in around 2007, and shadowstep has been with us since BC. They originally fucking stuck prep in this spot, having no damned clue.
2)- OVERNERF IT. If they do this, the move is guaranteed not to be broken. It won't be taken much either, and rogues won't take it or miss it when it gets redesigned in 6.0 or 5.4. They could do this by sticking with the core concept (openers teleport you) and sticking more to it, or finding some way of giving it an unintuitive ICD, or making it actually good for C, A, and S.


The overnerf is their way of deleting the move until they can replace it with something good.

[Brewski]

Don't know why people are upset about this. Ok so you have to be by your target to shadow dance... big deal. We can still use subterfuge to cc 2-3 teammates easily, just have to know how to get a re-stealth efficiently. It would be nice if they buffed subterfuge by 1 second or something.

[Nioxxic]

I wouldn't mind this change so much if they did something like adding a charge to shadowstep, similar to a monk's roll.

[Evi1Toad]

I wouldn't mind this change so much if they did something like adding a charge to shadowstep, similar to a monk's roll.

Since 5.0 I've wanted them to just give us step baseline and pretty much copy and paste the warrior's mobility tier onto Shs.

[kilj]

the nerf to CD was retarded.. ST sure... Look at all the other classes... Feral druids 10% damage increase?!?!? like they dont hit hard enough as is... Mages... no explanation GC plays a mage so he will never put his class in a hard spot... Hunters Buffed... Warlocks still godlike no matter what anyone says...

[Wow]

Hunters Buffed...

You have to be joking.

[rogueMatthias]

It would be nice if they buffed subterfuge by 1 second or something.

They were actually discussing how they could nerf subterfuge on twitter too as I recall :/

C&D won't be used by anyone next patch. Blizz reis going to have to come up with a new talent.

[Evolixe]

They were actually discussing how they could nerf subterfuge on twitter too as I recall :/

Because it needs to be nerfed. The easiest and best nerf to it would be a Shadow Dance-like approach though. No stealth, but access to stealth abilities.

[Evi1Toad]

Because it needs to be nerfed. The easiest and best nerf to it would be a Shadow Dance-like approach though. No stealth, but access to stealth abilities.

I would agree with this when you open up on someone, but if you get clipped by an AoE or something I would like the extra couple seconds to get away and break LoS or do whatever you have to in order to get a restealth.

Anyway, I wanna know how it went from a ten yard range nerf to this... I mean at 20 yards it is still plenty useful but if that change goes through it will be just plain useless.

Someone mentioned a gap closer that would be useful for all specs is really needed, and seeing as combat and mut are both more sustained damage (I think, last time I played combat was because I couldn't backstab ultrax) more uptime would be nice. Something where it puts a debuff on a target for a while and grants 150% movespeed while within 15 or so yards of the target might work. I have been playing dota on wc3 and got ganked by bara a lot, but couldnt think of a better way to impliment it in this context, and people might frown upon an unlimited ranged charge : P

[Mormolyce]

I don't really understand why CnD was considered so OP, frankly I was expecting a heavier nerf to ST instead. But yeah... I don't think we'll see a huge redesign of CnD. If anything if they want that tier to stay competitive they'd have to nerf ShS. Which would be... mean.

Mages... no explanation GC plays a mage so he will never put his class in a hard spot...

GC plays a Prot Warrior last I heard.

Do people really think this is how it works? Really?

[Evolixe]

I would agree with this when you open up on someone, but if you get clipped by an AoE or something I would like the extra couple seconds to get away and break LoS or do whatever you have to in order to get a restealth.

That is exactly what needs to get nerfed. It's the fool proofery that needs to go. So your point only is an excellent example of why.

[Coldkil]

I don't really understand why CnD was considered so OP

Basically because made Shadow Dance unpeelable. It's like saying any class popping up all his CDs and not being able to control him in some way. The nerf is justified; but the way they did it way over the top - the talent is now simply not worth to use.

[Evolixe]

Basically because made Shadow Dance unpeelable. It's like saying any class popping up all his CDs and not being able to control him in some way. The nerf is justified; but the way they did it way over the top - the talent is now simply not worth to use.

Well, there isn't really a viable middle road.

[Coldkil]

Don't know, looking at it right now it looks more like a cool passive ability than a talent.

[Kuniku]

Don't know, looking at it right now it looks more like a cool passive ability than a talent.

yeh there must be a middle gound, possibly something like the charges monk rolls have, can CnD teleport two or three times and then a cooldown is put on while they recharge?

either that or drop it as a talent, make it a passive ability and just have a say 15s ICD on it. Can still open from range, but can still be peeled unless you use shadowstep - or whatever the new talent to replace CnD might do?