1.3 million sub drop

[Vulcanasm]

There are a lot of casuals that look up to the hardcore and admire them.

Sorry, it's time to put this argument to bed.

You think a single person bought or resubscribed to an MMO because someone got items with purple names for their electronic paper dolly? Honest to God, you think someone who sees a game on the Gamestop shelves goes "I know this game! That's what Ensidia and Exodus play and they're my heroes!" ? ...seriously? That's the distilled essence of the "hardcores attract casuals" argument, and it's become the dogmatic mantra of WoW's "raid focused" expansion design.

Bull fucking shit. If you know who one "hardcore" player is, you're already subscribed.

People who bought WoW didn't spare a single thought for endgame, raids, PVP, or items. They didn't care if classes were well balanced. They didn't care if talent trees had 6 points or 40. They saw it and thought "this sounds like fun." They started playing because it looked interesting. They kept on because it kept feeling fun.

People play games for escapism. They do it for amusement. If tedium outweighs fun, people stop playing.

I think this is why subscriptions are dropping: There are two huge places where the fun stops. One is the gear grind from fresh level 90 through LFR, dailies then heroics then 5.0 LFR then more dailies on Quel'danas -- ooops, that's Quel'danas Marsh, I swear it's not the same zone. The other is the entire pre-BC leveling experience, 1 to 60. Every zone was rewritten as one agonizingly long quest, and it goes on and on and on and on ad infinitum, 15 hours later you still aren't done. In an age where games cater to 5 minute attention spans, and most people can't even follow one "Game of Thrones" episode, who has the time for that?

Incidentally, there's exactly one accepted definition of "casual gamer", anywhere online, no matter whom you ask. "Casual" means "one who puts less effort into the games I'm playing than myself". No matter who you ask, that's what they're telling you. That's what they really mean. So even invoking that term invalidates an argument.

[Glorious Leader]

PuG raiding is exactly same as LFR only done manually. You log, you see if there is a group and then you join or create a new one. Nothing scheduled about that. LFR only does it automatically.

Scheduling is not the only property of organized raiding. It's the only one you recognize but organized raiding involves well organization which includes all sorts of things like HAVING PLAYERS PLAY SPECIFIC ROLES. It wouldn't be organized if you brought say 10 dps.

[Deleted]

No they are absolutely organized activities. They are not say scheduled but that doesn't mean it doesn't take orginzation by the system to get them together. It doesn't mean rolls aren't required and hell even for lei shen strats are required to. They are absolutely organized just not to the degree that your normal raiding is. However even if this weren't the case it doesn't get around the fact that casuals at all levels WANT TO KNOW HOW TO PLAY. They aren't inherently born with the knowledge and the game does a poor job of teaching them so they google HOW TO PLAY FURY WARRIOR and find Noxxic or Icy Veins. Those sites are BUILT FOR casuals they aren't for hardcores who ignore them by and large and focus on their own playstyles and stats.

For the love of God. Organised playing means you play on a schedule and you progress with same people. If you are casually playing then you are loging when ever you want and do what ever you want. You don't commit to a guild.

[Fagatronics]

Hm. If memory serves, at WoTLK, people were complaining at how easy the heroics was. It was an AoE fest.

So come Cata with hard heroics, ala BC style. And people complained so it was toned back down. Then people said how great vanilla was, how great TBC was, how everything took time to grind. How bad DS and FL as a raid was.

Then in MoP, we have people complain about grinds, people complain that the normal raids were over tuned.

If anything, I think GC did listen and adjusted the game. Part of the problem is the player base does not know what it wants. We just look back in the past, IMAGINING how great it was when it was not never really that great the first time.

Not never really great = Really great. Possible Freudian slip?

[vizzle]

No they are absolutely organized activities. They are not say scheduled but that doesn't mean it doesn't take orginzation by the system to get them together. It doesn't mean rolls aren't required and hell even for lei shen strats are required to. They are absolutely organized just not to the degree that your normal raiding is. However even if this weren't the case it doesn't get around the fact that casuals at all levels WANT TO KNOW HOW TO PLAY. They aren't inherently born with the knowledge and the game does a poor job of teaching them so they google HOW TO PLAY FURY WARRIOR and find Noxxic or Icy Veins. Those sites are BUILT FOR casuals they aren't for hardcores who ignore them by and large and focus on their own playstyles and stats.

Stop being dense. By organized we're talking about dedicating a specific time to a specific activity on a specific day every week. We're not talking about organized in the sense of teamwork, so please stop using it in that way. LFD and LFR are not organized events, not something you have to put aside a specific time for every week. They are organized in the sense that people have to work together, but that's not the sense we're using in this discussion.

[Saphyron]

Normal mode still overtuned, people didn't like wiping on Horridon for two months...?

I seiously can't understand how people is still stuck on this boss. granted we used 20 wipes back in the day before we got it but seriously its such a faceroll fight.

[zimzum2523]

one thing i don't understand though, i view MoP the most casual time ever of wow, think about it

heroic dungeon - faceroll easy, 15 minutes bite size, screeming casual
LFR - design for casual raiding, include every raid of mop
daily - time consuming but casual, you do them at your own pace and on your schedule, this is casual
scenario - strike me as casual
pet battle - i see them as casual mini games
the farming activity - seems also quite casual.
challenge mode dungeon - i would consider as semi casual. they need skill and practice, but i never considered casual player as unskill. They are shortpiece of content that can be done anythime, so casual, but are best done with the same team everytime, so a need for organisation (so not so casual)
PVP can be done casually too

so i viewed that extention as the most casual friendly wow has ever been.
Heroic raid have never been casual content, that's why they introduce LFR. Even normal raid on some level aren't for casual, at least on a weelky basis, even more so with LFR.

What am i missing?

The problem is that none of that stuff is fun, Yes Blizz has added a lot of new features, but to me none of it is really worth my game time. Right now the only way for any feeling of casual progression is lfr. Each wing takes a couple hours inc que time, and that is if you are lucky enough to get a fresh one. In the past you could spend a few hours playing here and there and still have some feeling of progression. It takes me more time to run lfr now then I spent raiding normal modes casually.

[vizzle]

Scheduling is not the only property of organized raiding. It's the only one you recognize but organized raiding involves well organization which includes all sorts of things like HAVING PLAYERS PLAY SPECIFIC ROLES. It wouldn't be organized if you brought say 10 dps.

Yes, but you're forgetting the point of this discussion, which is distinguishing casuals vs hardcore. You're losing track. Keep up. Scheduling is the main aspect between someone who just logs in and plays and someone who dedicates time every week.

[Vankrys]

Actually their has been less engagement from people who raid but that's neither here nor there. Casuals do participate in organized activities. LFD and LFR. They are technically organized, even if it's by the system. As such they want to be able to perform whatever roll they can and they naturally get advice on how to do that. Casual players use noxxic and icy veins to and if you look at how those websites are written they are written for casual players. In fact I would make the real argument that hardcores don't touch that crap and figure that shit out for themselves by doing math and all kinds of homework on their own.

---------- Post added 2013-05-09 at 01:07 AM ----------



No and it's precisely because you need to have rep to buy valor gear. And because valor gear takes forever to cap. Hell I probably can't even get into lfr in the space of an hour. 4-5 hours a week is extremely casual raiding especially since were not really tight about attendance. Our players are good about it but were not gonna kick anybody who is sick or has kids.

i get why you would consider "raid with whoever online tonght + a pick or 2 to complete the raid" is a casual approach to raiding. I understand. If you guild required to be online at a given time, i would not considered casual, but as you described it, i agree.

However to me, the time to get a reward doesn't change the fact that a game is casual or not. it can be that is a badly designed casual activity, too much time to sink in, but it is someting you can do casually. You can do daillies whenever you feel like doing them. The more you do the faster you will get to the reward, but you advance at your own pace, that's casual (for me)

is it good casual in the case of wow, that different.

[Glorious Leader]

For the love of God. Organised playing means you play on a schedule and you progress with same people. If you are casually playing then you are loging when ever you want and do what ever you want. You don't commit to a guild.

No that's not what it means. That's the definition you ascribed to it but it doesn't matter. It could be solo play for all it matters. Casual players no matter what they do and at what level they do it at want to know how to play their best. So they google HOW TO PLAY AFFLIC WARLOCK and get noxxic or icy veins. Hell icy veins has an entire section dedicated to transmogging. It is written for casuals. Period.

[Armourboy]

yes exactly what i think. i tend not to include normal or heroic raiding as casual if they are organise by guilds. normal raiding joining a pug is casual, obviously, joining a
LFR, LFD is casual too. Daily, pet battle, BG, you do whenever you want, they are fit for casual gaming*.

So less participation in casual activity, means those activity aren't attractive for the casual crowd

2 reasons have beens given here

- people don't like to pay $15 for casual activity
- to much time for a reward in those activity


Is that a consensus why casual player leave wow?

That would be my guess at least when you are talking about casual sub loss with the bulk of it being because of the number of decent F2P games floating around. Personally I feel like " normal" or more " hardcore" player are leaving simply due to burnout most of the time ( its what got my wife)

[Deleted]

Scheduling is not the only property of organized raiding. It's the only one you recognize but organized raiding involves well organization which includes all sorts of things like HAVING PLAYERS PLAY SPECIFIC ROLES. It wouldn't be organized if you brought say 10 dps.

Ofc it's organized if you put it like that. Everything is then organized. But there is big difference if you log in, queue for something or you log in on strict time schedule. One is obviously for casuals and one for "non-casuals" aka raiders.

[Glorious Leader]

Stop being dense. By organized we're talking about dedicating a specific time to a specific activity on a specific day every week. We're not talking about organized in the sense of teamwork, so please stop using it in that way. LFD and LFR are not organized events, not something you have to put aside a specific time for every week. They are organized in the sense that people have to work together, but that's not the sense we're using in this discussion.

I'm not being dense, I just don't accept that's the only part about organized raiding that makes it organized. I mean I could go on open raid and find a raid right now. Does that mean it's not organized? Scheduling is the smallest part of being an organized raid.

[Grevie]

How can people still claim that MoP is the best expansion ever, when this is by far the largest quarterly sub loss that WoW has ever seen?

And this is just after a new raid dropped!

Because we dont have any oficial statement or fact about why people quit.... don't be silly by far this is the best expansion content wise.
never understimate real life, or how Asia suscriptions works, their heavy lost was in Asia, where the F2P model is working perfect, etc.
Plus wow players are getting older, more responsabilities, etc, and wow in not bringing alot of new player. and by new players i mean
the younger gamers, mmo market is bleeding, not by quality is bleeding because we are living a new game era, probably MMos will suffer
alot by this change, where younger people will not put alot of time on mmos rather play shorter games, with short game sessions.

We are old breed haha, WINTER IS COMING! hehe =P

[Deleted]

Stop being dense. By organized we're talking about dedicating a specific time to a specific activity on a specific day every week. We're not talking about organized in the sense of teamwork, so please stop using it in that way. LFD and LFR are not organized events, not something you have to put aside a specific time for every week. They are organized in the sense that people have to work together, but that's not the sense we're using in this discussion.

Finally someone who gets it.

[Glorious Leader]

Ofc it's organized if you put it like that. Everything is then organized. But there is big difference if you log in, queue for something or you log in on strict time schedule. One is obviously for casuals and one for "non-casuals" aka raiders.

Because it is organized raiding. Just organized by the system. Again it doesn't really matter it could be whatever, you could call it chicken dust it wouldn't matter. Noxxic and Icy veins aren't written for hardcores and casuals go there to get info because it's written for them. Even casuals want to do well and the game does such a piss poor job of showing them how to play they naturally seek out other sources of information. Hell people have been doing that since vanilla.

[vizzle]

I'm not being dense, I just don't accept that's the only part about organized raiding that makes it organized. I mean I could go on open raid and find a raid right now. Does that mean it's not organized? Scheduling is the smallest part of being an organized raid.

Yes but the aspects of organized raiding is not the heart nor the point of this discussion, which to reiterate, is distinguishing the casual playstyle and the hardcore playstyle. Stop making this about something it isn't.

[Deleted]

Hm. If memory serves, at WoTLK, people were complaining at how easy the heroics was. It was an AoE fest.

So come Cata with hard heroics, ala BC style. And people complained so it was toned back down. Then people said how great vanilla was, how great TBC was, how everything took time to grind. How bad DS and FL as a raid was.

Then in MoP, we have people complain about grinds, people complain that the normal raids were over tuned.

If anything, I think GC did listen and adjusted the game. Part of the problem is the player base does not know what it wants. We just look back in the past, IMAGINING how great it was when it was not never really that great the first time.

I can't say you didn't made your point tho, but there is a difference in listening to the audience and still do what ever you want (GC) and doing what you want and want the audience to to listen. Simply put GC leaves very little room for communication between the players and wow. They choose to <insert new challenge here> instead fixing the actual problem.
A short example, Eve Online. Ever heard of CSM? CSM (Council of Stellar Management) it is formed by a group of ppl selected by the players then voted to choose 1 leader, that have access to direct meetings with CCP (Eve's Blizzard) and tell them what the real problem is from player's pov. Of course not all goes CSM's way, but yes LOTS of stuff are done and fixed. It is just an example of how an competitor chooses to deal with their players. Yet, GC got stuck on "we believe" which implies that the players meaning has little to none importance!

[Glorious Leader]

Yes, but you're forgetting the point of this discussion, which is distinguishing casuals vs hardcore. You're losing track. Keep up. Scheduling is the main aspect between someone who just logs in and plays and someone who dedicates time every week.

No I haven't forgotten the point. I suggest you keep up. I keep insisting that whatever you want to call it doesn't matter. ICy veins and noxxic aren't for hardcores and casual players use that crap all the time. Maybe you should go back and read yes?

[Deleted]

I'm not being dense, I just don't accept that's the only part about organized raiding that makes it organized. I mean I could go on open raid and find a raid right now. Does that mean it's not organized? Scheduling is the smallest part of being an organized raid.

Jesus Christ. Do you want me to call it then spontaneous and planned? Would you understand then?