Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Duronos]

omg.....horridon is sooo hard we will never down it.....the words of the 7 raiders who joined my guild last night who were in a guild together raiding prior...1/12 progression....guess what....7 of them, me on my alt pally who is also holy and 2 others who hadnt even downed or seen jinrokh normal 4 shot horridon. HOLY CRAP SAY IT AINT SO!!! 4 SHOT!!! wanna know the difference.....the strat and having a few of them reforge and regem correctly. PROOF to what has been said all along. Its not hard, all it takes is some time to research things. They actually told me they felt the boss was "easier than council hard mode". The elite way of the first boss of terrace to clarify.

I remember watching people raid in Cata with me during DS, I just felt pity for people messing up on easy strats. The first time I ran DS, I quickly read up on the strats for bosses and I didn't make one mistake, you know why? Because it was pitiful but others who had ran it many times had trouble following them. First time I ran HC DS, my guild could't get the first boss down because someone kept making the same mistake over and over again, not once did I fuck up and it was my first time. Some people just suck at raiding and don't realize it, WoW really isn't that hard if you think about it but it's the same as LoL, if your team sucks super hard then it gets even harder to carry them.

[jax]

PROOF to what has been said all along. Its not hard, all it takes is some time to research things. They actually told me they felt the boss was "easier than council hard mode". The elite way of the first boss of terrace to clarify.

I know I shouldnt even bother with responding but the bait is just soooo tempting...

Lets see, hrmm so I put together a pug for heroic 10 mans last night and we killed LeiShen heroic in one night!

See what I did there?

As for your "proof" I am sure that 7 people =300,000 raiders so because those 7 are the exact same as the other 300k that have killed the first boss it MUST BE PROOF!!! that all you have to do is take 5 mins to explain and reforge them... I hesitate to point out that there have been severall nerfs to the Horridon encounter recently so that he is doable now... 1.9 million subs later.

/facepalm

Grats to you on you pug kill, please continue what you are doing as it will only help the raiding scene as a whole.

As for me I will take the word of WoW's Lead Encounter Designer Ion Hazzikostas who says:

The difficulty ramp up between bosses was not as smooth as it could have been, especially going from Jin'rokh to Horridon. This is something that can be improved upon in the next raid, and was addressed with hotfixes this time.

Not to take anything from your awe inspiring ancedotal raid experience from last night but I have to think most of us will side with the guy that actually makes the encounters as opposed to your somewhat excessive prepubesent tirade.

[pallyopness]

that was not a pug kill. it was all guildees. new ones that could not down a boss due to a poor strat and understanding of their class stat priorities. 3 of the dps prior to us working with them were at least 2% over hit. this was a group of friends who just couldnt get it down due to poor guild leadership prior. do you honestly think blizzard developers would tell you that you prepare poorly and or are bad? hell no, they choose a politically correct response to not anger the player base struggling. think about it....lol

[Deleted]

that was not a pug kill. it was all guildees. new ones that could not down a boss due to a poor strat and understanding of their class stat priorities. 3 of the dps prior to us working with them were at least 2% over hit. this was a group of friends who just couldnt get it down due to poor guild leadership prior. do you honestly think blizzard developers would tell you that you prepare poorly and or are bad? hell no, they choose a politically correct response to not anger the player base struggling. think about it....lol

This is after they design a game that leaves most players clueless how to play it, right?

i'd be careful how I worded things as well if that was me, tbh.

[pallyopness]

careful how i worded what? little confused with that statement. the issue with people not learning their class is due to people not wanting to struggle to level. I was forced to learn my class while leveling when I started playing. People complained so much that they nerfed how hard it was to level. Well I guess in all fairness it was probably so new players could catch up quicker as well. In the end if you want to raid it is PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY to research and find out what is best for the class. You cannot keep blaming blizzard for player lazyness or failures. This goes back to the old MO of "its easier to point the fingers at others". Im sorry if people dont find how I word stuff articulate or sensitive enough for them. But that does not falsify anything I have stated. I too, like those posting for nerfs, however a different view, feel that the lazyness and or inability to prepare for raiding is leading to them trying to ruin my enjoyment and thrill of the game. That, as others feel for opposite reasons, is insulting for lack of better terms to me. I feel I have to go on the initiative to show why these people arent doing well so that the game can stay in tact and not a complete steamrollfest thus losing the thrill.

[Glorious Leader]

This game has serious organizational issues and the developers or their bosses need to do some in house cleaning. After reading the front page article and a couple of tweets from GC recently I've become convinced of that. First of all they design content (raids) that they know few few few players will do (at the expense of eliminating other content btw that had a far broader reach) and then they also purposely designed those raids so that 2/3 modes are inaccessible to a huge chunk of the player base that would potentially be interested in doing them. HOw the fuck do you run a business like this? Who the fuck designs a game like this? It's like game development run by the joker or something.

[Deleted]

careful how i worded what? little confused with that statement. the issue with people not learning their class is due to people not wanting to struggle to level.

Yes. And? Why should people struggle?

I was forced to learn my class while leveling when I started playing. People complained so much that they nerfed how hard it was to level. Well I guess in all fairness it was probably so new players could catch up quicker as well. In the end if you want to raid it is PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY to research and find out what is best for the class.

Nope. It's blizzard job to make their content compelling. Player is there to have fun.

You cannot keep blaming blizzard for player lazyness or failures.

Yes, you can. It's their job to entertain. That's what they get paid for.

This goes back to the old MO of "its easier to point the fingers at others". Im sorry if people dont find how I word stuff articulate or sensitive enough for them. But that does not falsify anything I have stated. I too, like those posting for nerfs, however a different view, feel that the lazyness and or inability to prepare for raiding is leading to them trying to ruin my enjoyment and thrill of the game. That, as others feel for opposite reasons, is insulting for lack of better terms to me. I feel I have to go on the initiative to show why these people arent doing well so that the game can stay in tact and not a complete steamrollfest thus losing the thrill.

it's not players job to make blizzards game work. It's blizzards job to cater to their customers.

Blizzard are the employee, the gamers are the boss.

[Glorious Leader]

Blizzard are the employee, the gamers are the boss.

But see everything in this fucking game is flipped backwards and upside down. These people (or some of them at any rate) consider Blizzard (more specifically their designs) to be in charge of them. It's backwards man. If this were any other business dude... I mean..

[Deleted]

This game has serious organizational issues and the developers or their bosses need to do some in house cleaning. After reading the front page article and a couple of tweets from GC recently I've become convinced of that. First of all they design content (raids) that they know few few few players will do (at the expense of eliminating other content btw that had a far broader reach) and then they also purposely designed those raids so that 2/3 modes are inaccessible to a huge chunk of the player base that would potentially be interested in doing them. HOw the fuck do you run a business like this? Who the fuck designs a game like this? It's like game development run by the joker or something.

Well the joker was into making social experiments^^

[Glorious Leader]

Well the joker was into making social experiments^^

yea and 2 million subscribers left in mists is the killing joke. it's a funny world we live in..

[Osmeric]

This game has serious organizational issues and the developers or their bosses need to do some in house cleaning.

Prolonged screwing up of this kind is usually a symptom of management problems. I'd look at Morhaime as the one responsible. Either he issued unwise orders, or he set up a decision making structure that is dysfunctional, or he failed to hold those making bad decisions to account.

[melodramocracy]

Yes. And? Why should people struggle?

Nope. It's blizzard job to make their content compelling. Player is there to have fun.

Yes, you can. It's their job to entertain. That's what they get paid for.

it's not players job to make blizzards game work. It's blizzards job to cater to their customers.

Blizzard are the employee, the gamers are the boss.

There's already a mode for gamers who don't think challenges / facing adversity are fun. There's an entire leveling system built for them. There are pet battles for them, archaology, and many many other game systems that keep them in mind.

If you want mindless entertainment, there are truckloads of games out there with no sub fee, or cost of entry to begin with, and a much lower expectation of time investment.

ie, there's the door.

[Glorious Leader]

There's already a mode for gamers who don't think challenges / facing adversity are fun. There's an entire leveling system built for them. There are pet battles for them, archaology, and many many other game systems that keep them in mind.

If you want mindless entertainment, there are truckloads of games out there with no sub fee, or cost of entry to begin with, and a much lower expectation of time investment.

ie, there's the door.

And players took that door.

[Deleted]

There's already a mode for gamers who don't think challenges / facing adversity are fun. There's an entire leveling system built for them. There are pet battles for them, archaology, and many many other game systems that keep them in mind.

If you want mindless entertainment, there are truckloads of games out there with no sub fee, or cost of entry to begin with, and a much lower expectation of time investment.

ie, there's the door.

A very well used door. Anyone who leaves does so because blizzard has failed.

[Lethey Alexandros]

So I had a thought on what might help make more people happy than the current state. So here is my idea for a raid break down.

LFR - Keep its current difficulty, it can be a every one sees the content kinda of thing.

10man normal - Tuned towards ICC 10man difficulty. I think this will support the firends/family guild structure in a good a way.

10 man heroic - tuned towards the current 10man normal difficulty. People like me who find the current normal difficutly will be happy cause this will offer what we want.

25 man normal - keep as is. Aimed at the current 25man raid guilds.

25 man heroic - keep as it is. Aimed towards the hardest of the hard core. They get their super challangeing content they want.

Mind you this wouls require blizz to once again seperate the lock outs on north american servers. The only issue I can see is that potentialy people will say they feel like they have to do both 10 and 25.

However the aim here is to give people the content difficutly they want. IF you want something harder and more organized than LFR you have it, if you want to go into something more challangeing you just move up to the next teir in difficulty. This way the super casuals have access to gear, the firends/family guilds have their content, and everyone else in the spectrum has something.

Any thoughts or other ideas?

[Glorious Leader]

So I had a thought on what might help make more people happy than the current state. So here is my idea for a raid break down.

LFR - Keep its current difficulty, it can be a exvery one sees the content kinda of thing.

10man normal - Tuned towards ICC 10man difficulty. I think this will support the firends/family guild structure in a good a way.

10 man heroic - tuned towards the current 10man normal difficulty. People like me who find the current normal difficutly will be happy cause this will offer what we want.

25 man normal - keep as is. Aimed at the current 25man raid guilds.

25 man heroic - keep as it is. Aimed towards the hardest of the hard core. They get their super challangeing content they want.

Mind you this wouls require blizz to once again seperate the lock outs on north american servers. The only issue I can see is that potentialy people will say they feel like they have to do both 10 and 25.

However the aim here is to give people the content difficutly they want. IF you want something harder and more organized than LFR you have it, if you want to go into something more challangeing you just move up to the next teir in difficulty. This way the super casuals have access to gear, the firends/family guilds have their content, and everyone else in the spectrum has something.

Any thoughts or other ideas?

My thoughts and ideas is that this is more or less exactly what we've been calling for but at this point the dmg is probably done.

[Osmeric]

There's already a mode for gamers who don't think challenges / facing adversity are fun. There's an entire leveling system built for them. There are pet battles for them, archaology, and many many other game systems that keep them in mind.

If you want mindless entertainment, there are truckloads of games out there with no sub fee, or cost of entry to begin with, and a much lower expectation of time investment.

ie, there's the door.

Yes, that is all true. And no customer is under any obligation to be satisfied with any of that. Customers are bastards that way.

[pallyopness]

all i read post after post are players who want shit handed to them unhappy and blaming blizzard for their own inability to learn things....thats like saying your high school and education system teacher didnt teach you how to perform a surgery by age 18 so now you cant become a doctor. If anyone is in a profession and doesnt go above and beyond to learn more to better themselves as an employee or a worker, then you will be passed by those that do. every successful person in this world continues to learn everyday and seeks knowledge to do so, they dont expect people to hand them everything they need to know. its not blizzard that is backwards here, its the people who refuse to better themselves. its being mad that you were passed up for a promotion because another guy did more than you were willing to do, because all that is needed to be done is the bare minimum with no extra work to you. because thats all your employer expects, bare minimum. give me a break....and guess what those same people want paid the same amount of money as well.....just like raiding and wanting the same loot and to see the same bosses....PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY!!!! this is not directed to any one person either that has posted. just a general assessment of the issue at hand.

[Banzhe]

I'm perfectly happy with the state of difficulty in normal and heroic, people have just been depending on blizzard to lower everything to a sickening level which is what's causing the majority of sub-losses.

Everything becomes a snoozefest, more and more get bored to fast.., ye, you've all seen this cycle in full swing since the dawn of Cataclysm, and it's still going strong, people don't need to learn or improve much these days, which in tern means the wast majority absolutely stinks in terms of understanding their own class and mechanics.

Not that it matters, because I am 99.0% sure blizzard will make the mistake of adding another difficulty outside the lock of what's currently normal and heroic, with better gear then in lfr atm, and then not understand a majority of raiders feeling compelled into that difficulty level also while doing lfr at the same time.

It's definitely not logic or an open ear that's been the trademark of blizzard in the last 3 years!

[Crashdummy]

We have all seen alot of changes come with throne of thunder. In all honesty I think they are all for the better. But I wanted to bring to everyones attention the difficulty of this tier. this isnt to QQ about how it is too hard. because TOT is the best raid we have had since Ulduar. but to point out the stress it has been causing alot of guild and I wonder if it is the reason guilds are falling apart.

Becuase of the difficulty can this be the reason we see fatboss fall. and see Exodus fall apart. or is it simply becuase the content is rolling out too quickly and we arent given a chance to breathe or take a break between races for top tier progression.

All in all. whatever the cause be. I wanted to see what the community thought. I know guilds rise. guilds fall. but this patch. not becuase content is bad. I believe the difficulty is causing strain and what wouldnt seem like faults in a raid team are now becoming very apparent. I just reflect and see alot of it happening.

Fatboss and Exodus not, but several hundred guilds have been broken because of ToT difficulty.

And i disagree with you, ToT is nowhere near Ulduar and is not the best raid since ulduar, ICC was a lot better for example.

ToT has a very bad tuning, with difficulty going up and down during the raid, without consistency. Some of the parts of the raids dont really makes much sense (like Tortos and Megaera).