Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Otimus]

The problem is - people DO NOT know how to play their class and don't want to learn how to do so. Blizzard rectified this problem by providing easy content and easier class specs and talents. And still, people don't know how to play their class. This is what happens when you cater to people who are lazy and have ADD. Part of the problem is Blizzard does a completely awful job at educating people and informing people on their class in game. For example - Warriors - you learn "charge" in the starting area and then school is out - you're now a pro. No instruction about procs, mastery, defenses or rotations. Maybe this isn't Blizzard's job and I can understand that. And, the community does a pretty darn good job at filling the gap with videos and such, but I don't believe for a second these people research their class, let alone a raid boss - EVER! They are not gemmed correctly, let alone gemmed at all. They are not properly enchanted. No maxxed professions either; the extra stats does help a little bit in raiding, let alone provide you with gold to buy other things. Part of the problem might be the lower populated realms, there is no listing for gems or enchants and no one is ever online to help you out with that sort of thing. But, that is more the exception than the norm. The bottom line is people are lazy and just want to do the fun stuff and not work for it.

Now, I am speaking from a PVP perspective. I've been playing since WOTLK and I've only done one raid - EVER - Dragon Soul for Cunning of the Cruel (which after 148 boss kills, I never got which is the fucking reason I despise raiding.) But, I still believe my premise holds true in PVE. I've seen Hunters not drop a flair while a rogue sniffs around a node. Rogues burn all their CC cds before opening up on me. Mages spam icelance and only icelance as if their finger is strapped to the key (that is if they are not a clicker which most likely they are). I've seen Prot warriors run for the zerker buff with the flag in an RBG (more than once). The list goes on, I think I backed up my point effectively. People DO NOT know what they are doing and they don't care to know what they are doing. Some are drunk, some are stoned, most of them though just don't FUCKING care. This attitude compromises the integrity of the game and pissed off the loyal hardcore players. Today's gamer doesn't care about complexity, intelligence, lore or achieving goals in Raids or PVP, they just want to mash the keys and blow shit up. And, the problem is, unless they're playing someone worse than them, they can't do it in WOW on a competitive level.

Go ahead tell me I am wrong!

Now, I understand there is a lot more wrong with the game, but this is the core problem and the most fixable problem.

That, or you could actually make learning to play your class a part of the game outside of raiding. Which they've abysmally failed at. The game doesn't teach you jack. Nothing. At. All. You really are blaming the players for that? You're blaming the player for the game being so piss poor in teaching a player to play their class that they have to either turn the game off, or alt tab into a website, read a guide, to learn how to play right, rather than just learning by playing?

In what damned world of game design is this seen as EFFECTIVE and proper? It's poor. It's freaking 1992 DOS game stuff. NO one does that anymore. Except perhaps other MMOs? What's so broken and cracked about MMOs that they allow this piss-poor game design? Where people gotta read strategies to effectively do things, class guides, and have addons?

You can lay a tiny bit of fault on players, sure. But you should sure as hell lay some on Blizzard too.

As it is, you don't learn to play better by doing, you learn to play better by going to fan websites and downloading addons. There's effectively no ingame method otherwise. If you didn't talk to people, or read websites, you'd probably not know about:

Gems
Professions
Reforging
Rotations
Stat meanings
Stat priority
Appropriate stats
Appropriate weapons
Importance of the type of gear
Practically any currency except Gold
Enchants


How come no one sees this as a problem? In my mind, this means, as a game that exists in 2013, WoW absolutely fails. No modern game would do this.

Likewise, doesn't this explain why so many people are "bad"? The game doesn't teach anyone how to play, and you can level in a way that's entirely non-conductive to the "real" game.

[hughy]

The difficulty of the current tier seems fine.
About half of my raid group met during DS, but we mostly formed a few months into T14.
We were only 8/12 T14 prenurf and spent the first two weeks of T15 finishing up HoF on openraid and then did guild runs of terrace.

We started ToT with an average ilvl around 495 and have downed a new boss every week and are currently 8/12.

Everyone has been really enjoying T15. We get a true sense of progression with only investing around 6-8 hours per week.
It's what makes WoW such a fun video game. No single player game has the difficulty level of only being able to clear that slowly, but consistently.

[melodramocracy]

Respectable doesn't pay the bills unfortunately. If they put their foot down and said this is what's up where do you think the foot would land? My suspicion is that it would not be in favor of harder raids at all.

Isn't that also an entitlement argument on your part? I want the developers to cater to my vision and exclude everyone else just...

I want the developers to cater to THEIR vision, and stick with it.. and whoever happens to agree with them will play and rejoice in how great it is. They certainly started the game off like that, but that isn't the case at this point.

Whether that vision happens to co-exist with mine doesn't particularly matter to me. I'll either enjoy it and find it worth the sub fee, or I won't.

[cabyio]

I think you're missing the part where the student in this example is paying the teacher. I think it's safe to assume that a pupil hiring a teacher is not refusing to learn.

Ha. Have you seen college students? They are paying to learn, yet I know a ton that didn't know jack shit when they graduated.

[Deleted]

Ha. Have you seen college students? They are paying to learn, yet I know a ton that didn't know jack shit when they graduated.

Time for money back then, isn't it?

[melodramocracy]

Time for money back then, isn't it?

Time for students to get better.

[cabyio]

Time for money back then, isn't it?

Right... problem is that I know plenty of people in the same program that were quite skilled when they graduated.

But like I said, you live in some fantasy world, so you guys have fun patting each other on the back and thinking how smart you are.

[nukethetuna]

The problem is - people DO NOT know how to play their class and don't want to learn how to do so. Blizzard rectified this problem by providing easy content and easier class specs and talents. And still, people don't know how to play their class. This is what happens when you cater to people who are lazy and have ADD. Part of the problem is Blizzard does a completely awful job at educating people and informing people on their class in game. For example - Warriors - you learn "charge" in the starting area and then school is out - you're now a pro. No instruction about procs, mastery, defenses or rotations. Maybe this isn't Blizzard's job and I can understand that. And, the community does a pretty darn good job at filling the gap with videos and such, but I don't believe for a second these people research their class, let alone a raid boss - EVER! They are not gemmed correctly, let alone gemmed at all. They are not properly enchanted. No maxxed professions either; the extra stats does help a little bit in raiding, let alone provide you with gold to buy other things. Part of the problem might be the lower populated realms, there is no listing for gems or enchants and no one is ever online to help you out with that sort of thing. But, that is more the exception than the norm. The bottom line is people are lazy and just want to do the fun stuff and not work for it.

It's multifaceted though. I'm not disagreeing that people are lazy, but I wonder if Blizzard would want to support "theorycrafters" by building in the "correct" (as deemed by crafters) way to stat and play into the game. Ultimately Blizzard works towards and wants players to FEEL like they have more choice in their character than "cookie cutter best spec with these talents, this stat priority, and this rotation", and basically eschewing that to educate players probably feels like a step back for them.

Similarly, for raid encounters, if Blizzard puts in a video telling you how to kill the boss you're about to attempt, it really makes you scratch your head as to what kind of game this is. Honestly, Blizzard could make all of the fights WAY easier and far less demanding skill-wise if every winning strategy wasn't available before the raid was even released on live. If every raid group had to figure out how to kill a boss themselves, imagine how much longer progression would take and how much more lax Blizzard could be on execution checks. Unfortunately it's impossible, and since the winning strategy is out there on a silver platter for anyone willing to look for it, the "time consuming" part of it has to be near-perfect execution with some RNG.

You are definitely right on some fronts, though. Take a new hunter player... they learn flare, but they don't know what to do with it. It's now in their spellbook, but when would they use it? Giving players some sort of guide on their class (or upon learning a skill) that lets them know WHEN certain abilities would be worth using would help them understand both their rotation and their utility skills. A little info page for each skill (i.e. that tells what classes stealth and where flare would be effective for PvP) would probably go a long way. For some new players going into a game, it's definitely counter-intuitive when the "right" thing to do is to immediately alt+TAB out to a fan site to learn how to properly play the game.

Monks had a few class quests that required you to use abilities you wouldn't necessarily otherwise use while leveling in order to show situations they could be used in... other classes might benefit from this.

[BloodGutter]

this thread become a joke,
really.

i think so too. but i just read the latest news with the raid dev stating about the gap between LFR and normal and it pretty much confirms some of the people's concerns in this thread.

i honestly think LFR was the best thing they could have done. if they add a 4th difficulty its just going to complicate things. i understand there are these friends and family guilds (as stated by the dev) that want to do normal mode content together, and don't want to drop people who under perform when they get stuck on the first few bosses, but then how do you encourage improvement in player skill/knowledge, team synergy and overall strategy? i understand they need to cater to the majority but why not put that effort into painting the picture of the incentives of commitment and improvement?

it just boggles my mind really, but at the end of the day they already make a variety of content that i get to enjoy, as long as it stays that way i'll be satisfied.

[Duronos]

Reading a few pages back, how are consumers the boss? Ever wonder why Apple did so well under Steve Jobs, because he didn't listen to anything consumers said. He believed that he knew what consumers wanted and didn't listen to anything customers "thought" they wanted. Ever wonder why "the customer is always right" is used a troll-like context, it's because they aren't.

[Deleted]

the difficulty is ok, the timing is the hard part.

as an example, we're a semi hardcore raid that does strictly 3 raid nights a week at most, and we've been constantly progressing since mop release with no breaks or anything. getting that sha hc kill before 5.2 was pretty close and we didn't have the opportunity to try our luck on protectors elite. we'd rather have a few weeks of relaxed farming in between because constant progress burns a raid out.

i think many guilds and raids, be it semi hardcore or normal mode casual, are in a similar position, there's simply too much pressure. we don't like seeing new raids released before the old ones are done, because then we don't get to finalize the older content, which is unsatisfying. dont start on how we can still do it after the release, it becomes irrelevant and trivialized through new gear. like it or not there still is a kind of competition and sense of accomplishement within the top 1000 because the circumstances are different than in the world top guilds.

[Duronos]

i think so too. but i just read the latest news with the raid dev stating about the gap between LFR and normal and it pretty much confirms some of the people's concerns in this thread.

i honestly think LFR was the best thing they could have done. if they add a 4th difficulty its just going to complicate things. i understand there are these friends and family guilds (as stated by the dev) that want to do normal mode content together, and don't want to drop people who under perform when they get stuck on the first few bosses, but then how do you encourage improvement in player skill/knowledge, team synergy and overall strategy? i understand they need to cater to the majority but why not put that effort into painting the picture of the incentives of commitment and improvement?

it just boggles my mind really, but at the end of the day they already make a variety of content that i get to enjoy, as long as it stays that way i'll be satisfied.

We don't need any difficulties for raids, it should be one raid, one difficulty, separate 10 and 25 man lockouts... Jeez.

[Deleted]

All in all. whatever the cause be. I wanted to see what the community thought. I know guilds rise. guilds fall. but this patch. not becuase content is bad. I believe the difficulty is causing strain and what wouldnt seem like faults in a raid team are now becoming very apparent. I just reflect and see alot of it happening.

Well, it's far better than every half-decent guild facerolling normal mode in the first 1-2 weeks of the patch and then breaking up on the early hc bosses because they're so much harder and the nerfs are months away (*cough* Cata). And those faults in the raid team could well have come from the fact that 2 of the previous 3 raid tiers were stupidly easy...less incentive to get better if it's not needed in order to clear the current content.

I'd much rather see the current scenario of easy LFR for the non-raiders with hard normals for the general raiders and harder heroics for the hardcore raiders, than return to the Cata days where heroics are the only progression raids and normals are just a brief warm-up and/or inconvenient temporary barrier to that.

[Osmeric]

Reading a few pages back, how are consumers the boss? Ever wonder why Apple did so well under Steve Jobs, because he didn't listen to anything consumers said. He believed that he knew what consumers wanted and didn't listen to anything customers "thought" they wanted. Ever wonder why "the customer is always right" is used a troll-like context, it's because they aren't.

And yet, the success of Apple is because they actually do end up satisfying the customers. They may not deliver what the customers thought they wanted, but they do end up answering to the customers just the same.

[Duronos]

And yet, the success of Apple is because they actually do end up satisfying the customers. They may not deliver what the customers thought they wanted, but they do end up answering to the customers just the same.

What I'm trying to say is Blizzard doesn't do that and Apple did, you know Steve Jobs left Apple and the company started going downhill (I think in the 90's or something) and Apple begged for him to come back (which he did). Not only did the company start becoming profitable again but it's an industry powerhouse fueling the market.

[jax]

And here's the great disconnect. You pay for a game you happen to enjoy. Not a game that you'd enjoy if they only changed x, y, z to appease you. You are a customer, Blizzard is not your employee.

When you no longer enjoy it, you no longer play it. Simple.

I DO expect them to change things I do not like, if you call it appeasing me thats as good a word as any... I continue to play because they address enough of the things I see needing adjustment to keep me paying.

Does nothing to change the fact that they do change the game to appease the masses... thats why there are "masses" to begin with.

When I no longer enjoy it, I post feedback and gather support and try and get things changed... I dont just stop playing. Funny too that it works a good bit of the time...
There has been mass support despite the very vocal minority that think there is a big problem with difficulty (or mob ramp up) in this expac.
Funny how the lead encounter designer not only finally has come out and admitted such, also said the will work to make sure its changed in the future... Sure sounds like they are working for my 15 bucks...
You may see it different and thats fine... We pay them, tell them what to do and most of the time they do what they are told. (there are literally hundreds of examples of this) then they spin it so they can pretend they are incharge... I dont care what spin or fiction they apply... the people who pay their salary dictates.

/shrug

[Duronos]

I DO expect them to change things I do not like

Well therein lies a problem with that thought process, you just want a game developer to be your bitch. If you want things your way, become one and make your own game.

[pallyopness]

OMG a squirrel critter spawned in front of me how dare blizzard not pop up an instant in game tutorial not showing me how to kill it!!! What ability do I use??!! these developers don't help at all!!

[melodramocracy]

And yet, the success of Apple is because they actually do end up satisfying the customers. They may not deliver what the customers thought they wanted, but they do end up answering to the customers just the same.

The success of Apple is because they know how to market, but I digress. They're a company that makes a rather limited scope of devices, all of them at price premiums above most of their competition. I don't see folks lamenting the fact that the Mac Pro desktop costs what it does, and isn't available at Wal Mart. Apple gears their products towards a very specific type of consumer.

[Duronos]

The success of Apple is because they know how to market, but I digress. They're a company that makes a rather limited scope of devices, all of them at price premiums above most of their competition. I don't see folks lamenting the fact that the Mac Pro desktop costs what it does, and isn't available at Wal Mart. Apple gears their products towards a very specific type of consumer.

The Iphone is genius and nobody can deny it, I hate them personally but I'm minority. Just look at how many people have Iphone's when you walk around a major city much less a high school.

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 02:41 PM ----------

OMG a squirrel critter spawned in front of me how dare blizzard not pop up an instant in game tutorial not showing me how to kill it!!! What ability do I use??!! these developers don't help at all!!

Use right click, I heard that works from a guide online.