Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Ranklune]

It really depends on the group of people, I suppose? I think you can actually have alot of fun with the group of people you've been playing with for a long time no matter how many wipes you've actually reached on a single boss.

Don't get me wrong, my guild has been wiping on Lei Shen normal for 2 weeks now, so we still need to get in the Heroic progression.

[cabyio]

It's quite likely that if more guilds don't down Lei Shen fairly soon, Blizzard will nerf the encounter. However, I don't think that indicates that the encounter itself is bad, or overtuned. It's been killed. It's been killed by multiple guilds. It's been guild by multiple guilds using multiple strats and multiple comps. It's just a really, really long and hard fight. My guild expects to do a minimum of 400 pulls on this boss before we get him down.

I think you should look back at fights like H Ragnaros, H LK, Yogg 0, etc, before you say that this is somehow "strange" or "new." Dragon Soul was a very easy raid, both on normal AND on heroic. The lack of difficulty on heroic actually ruined the raid for me.

Why should a majority be able to down lei shen soon. We probably still have 2 months left till the next raid. Did we go from wanting the majority to finish the raid by the time the next one comes out to wanting them to finish it 2 months early.....

[Punisher069]

Why should a majority be able to down lei shen soon. We probably still have 2 months left till the next raid. Did we go from wanting the majority to finish the raid by the time the next one comes out to wanting them to finish it 2 months early.....

I am not sure where you even got that from.

[Deleted]

The very average player is, odds are, a clicker / keyboard turner until they set foot in a few raids, and experience first hand that this sort of thing might be holding them back.

I've been a clicker/keyboard turner since vanilla... Doesn't hold me back (pve)

Link your logs and i will tell you in minutes why you arent progressing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k1n00m1yvkjl6rmr/

^^

[dope_danny]

I doubt it, we are talking about an 8 year old game, going on 9. It only takes a member or two to leave a ten man to kill it and i've seen so many people who have simply grown tired of world of warcraft and want something different. After all theres only so long holy trinity fights can keep people engaged and theres a lot of people just reaching their limit with it regardless of difficulty.

[TirielWoW]

Why should a majority be able to down lei shen soon. We probably still have 2 months left till the next raid. Did we go from wanting the majority to finish the raid by the time the next one comes out to wanting them to finish it 2 months early.....

I think you need to re-read what I said, and who I was replying to.

[Odina]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k1n00m1yvkjl6rmr/

^^

See this is where logs make a huge difference! just looking at your attempt 20 you can see the following from the prot war and this is just a fast glance not even going to go into the editor

Only used jade warlord figurine 1 time yet the mastery on use is really OP for talon and could have been used more in a 7:45 fight
Only used 18 shield blocks yet most of the dmg inc ws form Melee hits 42% with 52 hits and only 36 blocked.
Used Avatar only 1 time
0 shattering throws with yet you have melee that would really benefit from it especially at the opening with prepots (as the war is starting out as the tank though this could be done at taunt swap)
Only cast 4 heroic leaps and could be casting it on CD for more dmg
Looks like he still had shockwave as I see no dragon roar damg and no shockwave dmg thus was missing out on more dmg
0 use of safeguard for when he was off tanking to get/keep veng up and reduce dmg to the 2nd tank especially right before talon

Logs can show very fast things that are not being used to squeeze out that extra bit you may be missing to get a boss down. This is why even the most casual of guilds can greatly improove by logging a night of attempts then comming to a site like this and tossing it out in the raid forums.

I know it's not a shared idea but there is solutions other than nerfing if you are willing to look into them!

[cabyio]

I think you need to re-read what I said, and who I was replying to.

I did re-read it, maybe I'm missing something. I was responding to this part of your statement.

It's quite likely that if more guilds don't down Lei Shen fairly soon, Blizzard will nerf the encounter.

[Soulstrike]

doesnt guild break up happen like..... every tier????

i mean i think i saw more guild breaking up in t14 than t15

oh and ToT being hard..... yes it WAS hard at the start but they nerfed early bosses because its linear path on normal

[TirielWoW]

I did re-read it, maybe I'm missing something. I was responding to this part of your statement.

Okay. What made you think that I found that to be desirable? I was just stating the truth. Most likely it will be nerfed so that more guilds can down him. I also said that I didn't think the encounter was overtuned, and I think it's a great fight.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:48 PM ----------

oh and ToT being hard..... yes it WAS hard at the start but they nerfed early bosses because its linear path on normal

Except it's still not linear in terms of difficulty.

[cabyio]

Okay. What made you think that I found that to be desirable? I was just stating the truth. Most likely it will be nerfed so that more guilds can down him. I also said that I didn't think the encounter was overtuned, and I think it's a great fight.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:48 PM ----------



Except it's still not linear in terms of difficulty.

Sorry. Misunderstood.

[Nobleshield]

doesnt guild break up happen like..... every tier????

i mean i think i saw more guild breaking up in t14 than t15

oh and ToT being hard..... yes it WAS hard at the start but they nerfed early bosses because its linear path on normal

The problem is still that many average guilds, or guilds that are made up of good friends who may not be great players, are hitting huge walls and being dejected. Everyone seems to gloss over this as an issue to argue about LFR or adding an "easy" difficulty. The problem isn't even the difficulty per se but the fact that there is a huge gap between Jin'rokh (arguably easy as hell; I brought my like 470 something geared Warlock in there and we 2-shot him, and I only died because I blew all my defensive cooldowns and had to run through two electric waters with Burning Rush on) and Horridon. These guilds (including mine, we are one of the ones stuck on Horridon) get dejected and morale collapses when you are killing one boss and bashing your heads against the second; the difficulty curve should have started out easy and got harder as you progressed so guilds like ours could have a couple of bosses on farm while we're working on the harder ones, and not feel as worthless and "Well, that was a waste of a week" since we'd be downing some bosses not hitting a wall on the second.

[TirielWoW]

Sorry. Misunderstood.

That's okay. I was just confused as to why you thought I wanted the encounter nerfed. D:

So far, I've greatly enjoyed dying horribly and repeatedly to various things on that fight. So much death. o_o

[Kuja]

I think ToT is overtuned too, for normal at least. Back in MC ragnaros has 3 ish abilities. A boss in ToT has what.. 50 abilities? I think I enjoyed MC more. There were wipes too, but it was way simplier.

[rated]

I think ToT is overtuned too, for normal at least. Back in MC ragnaros has 3 ish abilities. A boss in ToT has what.. 50 abilities? I think I enjoyed MC more. There were wipes too, but it was way simplier.

You're like comparing apples to banana's here...

[Deleted]

You know what's funny? I joined another guilds alt run a few days ago and they had far more problems with normal Jin'Rokh than Horridon.

[TirielWoW]

You know what's funny? I joined another guilds alt run a few days ago and they had far more problems with normal Jin'Rokh than Horridon.

There's an element of "raid comp issues" with a lot of guilds having trouble with Horridon, especially in 10 man.

[Johnkie]

nothings been "to hard" since ulduar.

[Volitar]

I think it is too challenging or over complicated for a certain crowd of people who want more than just lfr but normal is too overwhelming. A normal difficulty like WOTLK had would be great for casual/noob runs with friends or pugs.

[Deleted]

nothings been "to hard" since ulduar.

Ulduar NM weren't hard at all.

Some of HoF/ToT boss (NM mode, and NM geared) are a lot harder than what ulduar was.