Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Glorious Leader]

This is only arguable when it comes to the amount of abilities present during the fight. The actual tuning and execution required were on a different level.

I would argue the real difficulty in ToT lies in the exact amount of raw abilities each boss has. My opinion is that it's much easier to teach a player to avoid a single deadly mechanic then say multiple small mechanics which end up being harder execute and coridnate and just as deadly in the longer term.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:29 PM ----------

So you never got to raid in BC, gotcha!

Kazrogal. Easiest boss in the universe. I spent lot's of afk on time on that boss.


Good to know I'm not the only one.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/05/10/th...ifficult-past/

[Odina]

No I'm not but thanks for playing. I'm telling you transpose BC into now and BC raids are easier than heroic dungeon bosses. LOL.

Take away all the tools that we have been given and it will be just as hard as today's normals once again. This is what you seem to be missing when you compare them!

Mobility tools gone, personal cd's drastically removed, buffs debuffs being applied only by a select fiew, reforging gone "got shit stats on an item dela with it!", etc etc

there are so many tools we have now to help compared to back then that a direct comparison is a joke!

[Glorious Leader]

Take away all the tools that we have been given and it will be just as hard as today's normals once again. This is what you seem to be missing when you compare them!

Mobility tools gone, personal cd's drastically removed, buffs debuffs being applied only by a select fiew, reforging gone "got shit stats on an item dela with it!", etc etc

there are so many tools we have now to help compared to back then that a direct comparison is a joke!

Which is not a measure of the bosses actual difficulty. It's basically saying it wasn't so much that we had to deal with encounters it was just how shitty the game was. Well yea but that's the whole point. Encounters are actually vastly more difficult today then they ever were. In fact mots of what you listed has nothing to do with encounters at all.

[miscreant]

Winners never quit, Quitters never win! Just my two cents!

[melodramocracy]

Winners never quit, Quitters never win! Just my two cents!

Rehab is for quitters!

:P

[Gaman]

Which is not a measure of the bosses actual difficulty. It's basically saying it wasn't so much that we had to deal with encounters it was just how shitty the game was. Well yea but that's the whole point. Encounters are actually vastly more difficult today then they ever were. In fact mots of what you listed has nothing to do with encounters at all.

More mechanics does not equal harder bosses.

[Glorious Leader]

More mechanics does not equal harder bosses.

It does in ToT.

[Gaman]

It does in ToT.

No. /10chars

[Glorious Leader]

No. /10chars

yes it does and remaining in denial will not serve you well here

it really isn't even up for argument. the developers have said yes fights have continued to increase in complexity over the years to keep players in engaged. well that is not sustainable. it will need to be corrected sooner or later

[Odina]

Which is not a measure of the bosses actual difficulty. It's basically saying it wasn't so much that we had to deal with encounters it was just how shitty the game was.

Most of the classes / specs have no tools to help during mobility... blizz knows this...they make a boss with mobility requirement in it to ... *wait for it* make the boss hard due to the mobility aspect! Sure looking back now with the toosl we have you can say "shit was so easy look there is nothing but ability X and move pshhhh" however back then mobility meant Huge dps loss almost going down to 0, healing dropping etc etc.

Fastforward to now and even an ARCANE MAGE can do decent in a mobility fight! They wont be as good but they are not completly fucking useless like they use to be! Thus when you start to give tools to negate what traditionally was a "boss ability that needed to be countered" you need to add in other things to keep the diffiulty level up!

Horridon is a prime example there is not much mechanically that you need to look out ofr other than A) move out of bad shit B)interupt bad casts C) Focus target. This is basic raiding 101 that has been in the game forever!

[RickJamesLich]

I think ToT is pretty forgiving, may take a few weeks, but with some VP and LFR gear, nobody should really have a problem clearing the place on normal, just don't expect to do it the first week.

[Odina]

yes it does and remaining in denial will not serve you well here

What boss is really mechanically hard? I would love to see what one you believe is really really hard due to mechanics!

10/1 odds on you saying mageara and complaining the devs fucked up becuase you chose to ignore blue head 100% of the time and belive they overtuned the dmg from it even though you chose to eat that dmg by using that strat!

[Keoren]

My opinion is that it's much easier to teach a player to avoid a single deadly mechanic then say multiple small mechanics which end up being harder execute and coridnate and just as deadly in the longer term.

The thing about the Throne of Thunder encounters is that even though there is a large number of abilities the players only have to be aware of few key ones. An individual player does not need to know every ability that the boss does.

Encounters are actually vastly more difficult today then they ever were. In fact mots of what you listed has nothing to do with encounters at all.

The encounter difficulty and the tools we have available are definitely related. While the complexity increases with the amount of tools at hand, the tools can also be used to counter abilities and situations which couldn't have been countered before.

It does in ToT.

If a mechanic is ignorable, the only difficulty it brings is for the players to understand that it's ignorable.

[Glorious Leader]

Most of the classes / specs have no tools to help during mobility... blizz knows this...they make a boss with mobility requirement in it to ... *wait for it* make the boss hard due to the mobility aspect! Sure looking back now with the toosl we have you can say "shit was so easy look there is nothing but ability X and move pshhhh" however back then mobility meant Huge dps loss almost going down to 0, healing dropping etc etc.

Fastforward to now and even an ARCANE MAGE can do decent in a mobility fight! They wont be as good but they are not completly fucking useless like they use to be! Thus when you start to give tools to negate what traditionally was a "boss ability that needed to be countered" you need to add in other things to keep the diffiulty level up!

Horridon is a prime example there is not much mechanically that you need to look out ofr other than A) move out of bad shit B)interupt bad casts C) Focus target. This is basic raiding 101 that has been in the game forever!

Right which is nothign to do with the actual encounters themselves just that the game is smoother now than it was then. It's a better game overall yes but encounters are just much harder. Granted they don't exist in a vaccuum but that doesn't mean the complexity of fighst hasn't increased over the years even if it's only because the game outside of the raid has got better. Fights are to hard. PERIOD.

[Lethey Alexandros]

No I'm not but thanks for playing. I'm telling you transpose BC into now and BC raids are easier than heroic dungeon bosses. LOL.

I think you would be suprised how difficult they would be with proper scaleing. I imagine people would still have difficulty on the cloister of souls, terron goefiend. I would wager the bosses in hyjal would even give alot of raiders some difficulty.

[pallyopness]

the issue is people want to think they are better than they are and blizzard gave 3 sets of raid types for people to deal with...people dont want classified as lfr only capable people so they want harder shit nerfed....sorry this is why bads are called bads....this is where the animosity is....if you dont have the skill to do high end shit just realize it already and move on to super mario brothers....NES version....quit trying to ruin it for others who actually enjoy challenges and find ways to get it done

[Glorious Leader]

What boss is really mechanically hard? I would love to see what one you believe is really really hard due to mechanics!

10/1 odds on you saying mageara and complaining the devs fucked up becuase you chose to ignore blue head 100% of the time and belive they overtuned the dmg from it even though you chose to eat that dmg by using that strat!

What is the honest point in giving you an answer to this question? Nothign I say will you will agree with and you'll just say yea it's real simple. Is it that fucking hard for you to believe others find something hard that you find easy? It's such an insane paradox. You admit their are bad players but can't see how anything is hard for them. It's like trying to explain color to a blind man. Or chicken to a vegetarian. It's a useless exercise because they just won't get it anyway.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:47 PM ----------

The thing about the Throne of Thunder encounters is that even though there is a large number of abilities the players only have to be aware of few key ones. An individual player does not need to know every ability that the boss does.

He needs to be aware of enough of them in addition to playing his already loated and overly complicated character. His memory is stretched thin. Actually to be honest I had to pay attention to even less in Hyjal if were gonna be honest. Again Kazrogal. Run out if you get the mark. GG.

[Bombino]

I think there may be some similarities between some BC raids and ToT, however, I think BC's attunement system better prepared raiders for the upcoming challenge. Perhaps ToT is a shock for many normal raiders compared to mindless heroics and 1/4+ afk'ing LFR difficulty.

However, you can't really add in an attunement system on top of the magnitude of other gating requirements to be raid-ready. I think that's part of the issue also, BC gating requirements were at least useful, I think MoP gating requirements just feel like mindless grinding, at least from my perspective.

[Deleted]

i play in a raiding guild that raids 6 hours a week, and we've been raiding with the same people for roughly 3 years now and we pretty much kill every heroic boss except the last one in their relevant patch ( same with 5.0 ) However currently we just killed the 11th boss last week, and tomorrow we're starting lei shen

[Lethey Alexandros]

What is the honest point in giving you an answer to this question? Nothign I say will you will agree with and you'll just say yea it's real simple. Is it that fucking hard for you to believe others find something hard that you find easy? It's such an insane paradox. You admit their are bad players but can't see how anything is hard for them.[COLOR="red"]

So after establishing that there are bad players why does the content have to be considered over tuned? Why can it not just be a case of bad players and leave it simply at that?

Or is this an argument for the "Everyone is a winner, there are no losers in life."